skybook pulling a bush move on me...

**rm18** · 02-27-06, 01:09 AM

A 100% free play is equal to about a 70% cash bonus, 8X rollover is nothing for that kind of bonus

**pags11** · 02-27-06, 01:12 AM

exactly rm18, had I known this it may have changed my decision on whether or not to sign up...they count the $250 in the free play as part of the 4x rollover, yet they won't count wagers from this account towards the rollover itself...it's got to be one or the other...they should have advertised this as an 8x rollover on the regular account deposit, but I'm sure they would have gotten a lot less takers...well, I'm sucked in now and it stinks...I mean there are worse books to have problems with...at least I know I'll get paid eventually...

**pags11** · 02-27-06, 01:16 AM

also, spoke with CS agent Vickie about this today and yesterday...she was going to talk with Mike (who seems like a reasonable guy)...as far as I know, nothing has changed on their policy regarding this decision...I'm gonna go try to dig up the promotion here and post it so you guys can read it and tell me how you think it reads...

**pags11** · 02-27-06, 01:19 AM

CLICK HERE!!

100% up to $250
ONLY 4X rollover!!!!

only valid the next 2 days...
-------------------

now granted, this was posted by AK, but this was a legit promotion...

**rm18** · 02-27-06, 01:22 AM

Most rollovers do include the bonus, although usually the bonus is 10% cash or so so it does not seem like a big difference

**pags11** · 02-27-06, 01:22 AM

OK, so I can't get it to work...my bad...

**tacomax** · 02-27-06, 01:41 AM

As rm18 says, rollovers almost always include the value of the bonus. Rather than the book "pulling a bush move" this is a classic example of a player taking a bonus without taking the time to understand the promo's terms and conditions beforehand.

**pags11** · 02-27-06, 01:50 AM

tacomax,

maybe you should look a little closer at what I've written...I asked two times what was considered towards the rollover...I was told 4x the ammount of the deposit + the bonus ammount was to be wagered from the free play account and the regular account ($2000 in wagers)...I'm many things, but when it comes to who I deposit my money with these days I make sure I get things crystal clear...

I wonder how many players actually won with this bonus to get this far?...the more people I talk to, the more I find out that skybook doesn't really like winners...they will probably not admit that, but I never have problems with pinnacle, mansion and skybook...this is just another reason I'm over the whole rollover deal and will play with reduced juice books that offer free payouts...

**tacomax** · 02-27-06, 02:00 AM

Without the transcripts, we can't really see exactly what the book actually said so it's only what you say against what you say they said. In any case, the rules they have implemented in this case are exactly how I would have expected them to be implemented i.e. you use the freeplay bonus and then make additional wagers to the value of $x before you can withdraw your balance.

Whatever the issue, I think it's a bit off to accuse them of "pulling a move" and "skybook doesn't really like winners" just because you've been asked to make a perfectly justifiable additional $250 in wagers.

**pags11** · 02-27-06, 02:18 AM

tacomax,

I agree with you that it wasn't documented properly on my end...which is why I will have to follow the guidelines they have set in order to make a withdrawal...

I don't think I'm off at all...their CS agents need to be better trained with these type of promotions (your basic intial deposit/ re-load bonus most CS are completely familiar with, but this was a two-day promotion)...I'm not making up this experience whatsoever...part of the reason I don't believe they like winners but will never admit it is due to many other conversations I've had with players that I trust...my emails weren't returned, as well as my calls...the way I take that is that they hope I just leave after I meet my rollover requirements...I realize these books are busy, but I never have a problem getting in touch with anyone at my big 3 (pinnacle, mansion and matchbook)...I also realize that sportsbooks are in the business to make money, not lose money and that with some books better CS is handed out to those who bring in more "business" than others...I had the same experience here at the Peppermill in Reno...they loved me at first, but when I continually won in college football most weekends, they lowered my limits so much it wasn't even worth making the trip over to play with them anymore...in fact, I'd say that 95% of the books out there don't like winners...so I'm not just saying skybook is this way...with the legit books (pinnacle, cris, betjamaica, mansion, matchbook) you ask for a payout and you get no hassles...

these guys get thrown in the same sentences with top-rated books like pinnacle and cris, but when I really look at them, they are an above average book for sure, but I'm not sure in the "A" category (that I was once promoting them for--now that I've done more research, I think their current rating is justified)...

I do, however respect your opinion regarding this matter and thank you for the input...

**freebie** · 02-27-06, 05:46 AM

I started out with the 100% bonus up to $250 and had to do the very same thing.

free wager doesn't count in as rollover. They are average book like pags had said. It had cost me so much money to make NT withdraws ($15) each time. As long as I'm killing them I think the $15 is worth it, but still.

their 1/2 point program is only good in basketball, 1/2 point is not allowed for football for pointspread set at on/off 3/7 . What good is it if you can't apply 1/2 point to football 3 & 7 ?

**Dark Horse** · 02-27-06, 06:11 AM

Always a good idea to keep records. Either a copy of the online chat with CS representative, or ask for an e-mail of what was agreed on. Some reps aren't very good at explaining, and you don't want to pay for their mistakes.

**mad** · 02-27-06, 06:35 AM

Had a look at Sky once 'cos their was a lot of talk, Vanilla is a word that comes to mind.

**pags11** · 02-27-06, 03:58 PM

freebie,

I agree, I've used them almost soley for hoops other than a couple of bowl games...if they didn't have the free half point in hoops I wouldn't play with them at all...as I've stated before, I think the $15 withdrawal fee for NT payouts is a bit much for a so-called "top book"...

Dark Horse,

You are right...I should have documented the day, time and person I spoke with on both occasions when getting details of the promotion...I should have also asked that someone email me the details of the promotion as well...

mad,

I have to agree...they've done a good job promoting themselves, but when you study them more closely paying full juice for bets, paying for withdrawals, no overnight lines on college hoops and late lines in college football, and average customer service aren't the qualities I'm looking for in a book...

**hanco21** · 02-27-06, 04:30 PM

Pags,

I got an email today from skybook. Here it is and yes its 4x rollover.
-------------------------------------------------

March Basketball Betting
20% Deposit Bonus Promotion
In-Game Betting Schedule

The Pulse Newsletter
Free Picks & Game Analysis.
Register here!

March Basketball Betting
The start of March means the college basketball madness is beginning! Join in on the betting frenzy at Skybook. Whether it is your favorite college team playing or your former college’s rival on the court, you can become a part of the excitement at Skybook. Our free half point and special March bonuses will push the odds in your favor and put more money in your pocket. Our up-to-the-second In-Game Betting adds a further touch of excitement to basketball betting.

20% Deposit Bonus Promotion
Deposit $300 or more between March 1-3, and receive a 20% deposit bonus! You will receive a 10% cash bonus AND a 10% free play bonus! Be sure to take advantage of this offer, which comes just in time for March Madness.

Restrictions:

1. Applies only to "new money" deposits submitted between March 1-3 only. Previous withdrawals must be replenished prior to being eligible to receive this offer.
2. Eligible payment methods: Neteller, Western Union, Citadel eCheck and InstaDebit only.
3. Minimum rollover: 4 Times
4. Maximum cash and free play bonuses not to exceed $1,500 each.
5. Offer valid once per customer

To avoid misunderstandings, please contact our Customer Care department toll free 1-888-SKYBOOK prior to making the deposit in order to confirm eligibility, and obtain the applicable rollover information.

In-Game Betting Schedule - Check it out this week!

PXP Schedule - Week of February 20th – February 26th

Date Teams & Rotation Numbers Network Time

NCAA Basketball
Wed, Mar 1st Duke(731) @ Florida St.(732) ESPN 7:00pm
Sat, Mar 4th Louisville(531) @ Connecticut(532) CBS 2:00pm
Sat, Mar 4th N.C. State(563) @ Wake Forest(564) CBS 4:00pm

NBA Basketball
Wed, Mar 1st Philadelphia(715) @ Houston(716) ESPN 9:00pm
Thur, Mar.2nd Cleveland(501) @ Chicago(502) TNT 7:00pm
Thur, Mar.2nd Dallas(503) @ San Antonio(504) TNT 9:30pm
Fri, Mar 3rd Indiana(707) @ Boston(708) ESPN 7:30pm
Fri, Mar 3rd Orlando(715) @ Phoenix(716) ESPN 10:00pm
Sun, Mar 5th Indiana(701) @ Philadelphia(702) ABC 1:00pm
Sun, Mar 5th Phoenix(705) @ Dallas(706) ABC 3:30pm
*All times Pacific Standard Time

**hanco21** · 02-27-06, 04:32 PM

well its a new advertisement. Probably the same as an older version.

**pags11** · 02-27-06, 04:42 PM

thanks hanco...so it's 4x $300 + 4x $60= $1440 which all wagers have to come from your regular account...so that's about -106 to -107 (ganchrow will have to confirm this)...not a great offer when you can get -105 or less everyday, all day from pinnacle, mansion and matchbook...

also, see how it says to call CS for the rest of the rollover details? I do that and it still doesn't matter...

**Doug** · 02-27-06, 05:15 PM

Pags: You use Skybook, when you mean Matchbook a few times.

I agree Sky seems to not want the action of those that win there. I only use them sparingly. I make sure to get a bet a week for contest purposes.

They are useful for the half-point when the line is steaming away from you, and unlikely to get matched at Mansion.

I send Sky $100 at a time ( once a week), and either lose it, or play it up to $2,000 and withdraw. The $15 fee discourages small withdraws, I believe by intention.

Not a good out for a small player who desires transactions, a $15 fee on say $500 is too much, they want to keep you playing only there.

Without the RX contests, I wouldn't play there at all. Skybook will pay you, just late the next day. Wagerweb gives me the half too ( on old program, not valid for new guys), including totals and 7 in foots, and for $500, so I have even less need for SKY.

**Ganchrow** · 02-27-06, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by pags11

so it's 4x $300 + 4x $60= $1440 which all wagers have to come from your regular account...so that's about -106 to -107 (ganchrow will have to confirm this)

If the 20% bonus were paid all in cash we'd have at a -110 line set:

"Small bet" equivalent of -103.8
"Max bet" equivalent of +115.7

However, because the deposit bonus is actually 10% cash and 10% free play we have also make an assumption regarding the action on the free play. Because free play bonuses have higher expected payouts the longer the odds taken (in other words, putting risk aside, take the biggest dog you can find), let's assume that all match play action goes to the biggest NBA dog on CRIS (today it's +1200 on the Knicks versus -2000 on the Spurs -- corresponding to implied dog odds of 7.473% and a theoretical hold of 2.847%). So by taking the Knicks on the free play, for every unit of free play received you would expect to hold on to 7.473% x 1200 = 89.680% of a unit.

Therefore a 10% free play + 10% cash bonus is under these circumstances the equivalent of an 18.968% cash bonus.

So-o-o, plugging this back into the original spreadsheet we see that at a -110 line set we'd have a "small bet" equivalent of -105.6. (which is right in line with pags's estimate

)

The "max bet equivalent" is of course not readily obtainable from the spreadsheet (it gives +113.8 which is probably pretty close) because the cash equivalent bonus figure of 18.968% is in fact only an expectation. Still, if you care enough it should be pretty easy to derive.

**pags11** · 02-28-06, 12:47 AM

doug, sorry about that...I went back an corrected one thread already...interesting thoughts you have on skybook, similar to mine at this point...

ganchrow, you are really unbelieveable...I don't know that I've come across anyone in all my years that can compile sports capping numbers in the way that you can (this guy is a huge asset to this forum if I haven't mentioned it before)...that's truly awesome stuff...anyway, Bill talked to them...I will complete the rest of the $250 in rollover and be done with them unless they offer another good promo...

**TLD** · 02-28-06, 03:33 AM

The way Skybook is interpreting the rollover rule is both the way it is most commonly done in the industry, and consistent with what they put in writing.

I don’t doubt, though, that an individual customer service person may have erroneously explained it in a way that sounded more generous for the customer.

It doesn’t strike me as something done intentionally to sucker people in, and it’s not as if the actual deal is a poor one. So I wouldn’t give Skybook any more than the smallest of black marks for this particular incident.

That being said, for pretty much the same reasons others have cited in this thread, I don’t find much value at this book. It definitely wouldn’t make my top 10 list of “must have” books, and I seriously doubt it would even crack my top 25. (All relative to my sports, bet types, betting style, bet size, etc. of course.)

Also, regardless of my thinking the matter is quite minor, it still sucks to feel misled even to that degree, so my sympathies are with Pags. Thanks for noting the incident; genuine feedback about a book is always valuable.

**pags11** · 02-28-06, 03:50 AM

TLD,

excellent post...I couldn't have put things better myself...good stuff...

as I've stated above, it was more the way it was handled after I found out about the additional rollover ammount...policies I can't really argue with, but it would have been cool to get better CS...

**Dark Horse** · 02-28-06, 04:07 AM

FWIW, I have never come across a more generous book than Canbet. I put my money in, wager for a while, take it out, redeposit a couple of weeks later for a free $100. Not much, but they allow you to do that as often as you want. Win or lose, you can take your money out, wait two weeks, and get a 10% bonus when you redeposit. Just 3x rollover. Plus they keep handing out free plays. Just today I e-mailed them with a simple question, and get a quick reply PLUS a $50 free play. So if you have a grant to move around, put it in Canbet. Free money (read Thursday reload section).

Why even go close to a book that tries to rip you off, when you can have the exact opposite? These guys are a class act. (No, I'm not working for them...)

I'm assuming you know about the 107 juice, which stays at 107 in parlays and round robins, unlike at Pinnacle (which I use as well), where the juice jumps to 110. Canbet is A++. :jump:

**pags11** · 02-28-06, 04:20 AM

darkhorse,

I have reqad a lot of postive things about canbet...isn't it great when you just can't wait to deposit money with a book?...without worry of loopholes so they can keep it?...

**Satyr** · 02-28-06, 09:43 AM

and another dumbass, amazing - you had to wager deposit+bonus on a 100% deal so stop crying omg...freeplays never count towards the rollover you n00b

**pags11** · 02-28-06, 03:41 PM

satyr,

who you calling a noob boy? I'm far from a noob...the more I read up on things, the more I realize that free play account money is not usually counted...if you took time to read this thread a little you will see I was told otherwise...

great prices today on games at skybook...-116, -112...why not move the line a little and keep it at -110 at least?...what a joke...

**BuddyBear** · 02-28-06, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by Satyr

and another dumbass, amazing - you had to wager deposit+bonus on a 100% deal so stop crying omg...freeplays never count towards the rollover you n00b

You have a lot of balls to be talking like this to one of the top 20 gaming forum posters of all time especially considering you have 4 posts.

You seem like an idiot Satyr

**Doug** · 02-28-06, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by pags11

satyr,

who you calling a noob boy? I'm far from a noob...the more I read up on things, the more I realize that free play account money is not usually counted...if you took time to read this thread a little you will see I was told otherwise...

great prices today on games at skybook...-116, -112...why not move the line a little and keep it at -110 at least?...what a joke...

Pags: A voice of reason... nothing wrong with the bonus deal you received, you'll never get another one from Sky without re-depositing everything you ever won from them.

Moving to -113/ -107 types of lines is fine, it keeps them on pace with Pinny, so they never give too good a line, it's the mid-point of moving to the next half-point.

Skybook is good for a less sophiscated player, one that is uncomfortable with exchanges. Sky is a good fit for many smaller players that don't exceed $300 bets and have only a few outs.

They don't fit you and me well. I suggest just playing $100 a week for RX contests, and play the rest at your other places, as I do.

**freebie** · 03-01-06, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by Doug

Pags: A voice of reason... nothing wrong with the bonus deal you received, you'll never get another one from Sky without re-depositing everything you ever won from them.

Moving to -113/ -107 types of lines is fine, it keeps them on pace with Pinny, so they never give too good a line, it's the mid-point of moving to the next half-point.

Skybook is good for a less sophiscated player, one that is uncomfortable with exchanges. Sky is a good fit for many smaller players that don't exceed $300 bets and have only a few outs.

They don't fit you and me well. I suggest just playing $100 a week for RX contests, and play the rest at your other places, as I do.

skybook keeps sending me 20% deposit bonus, every time I call they won't let me have it. They said I had won over 4 thousand from them. And I asked them do i have to lose back 4 thousand to get the 20% deposit?

They said no, but I do have to deposit what I had won (4 dimes) to get 20% deposit.

Another word I have to lose back 4 dimes to get their 20% bonus.

**Doug** · 03-01-06, 02:37 AM

Originally posted by freebie

skybook keeps sending me 20% deposit bonus, every time I call they won't let me have it. They said I had won over 4 thousand from them. And I asked them do i have to lose back 4 thousand to get the 20% deposit?

They said no, but I do have to deposit what I had won (4 dimes) to get 20% deposit.

Another word I have to lose back 4 dimes to get their 20% bonus.

You don't have to lose it, but you have to re-deposit it, and probably roll that 5X or so, not worth it. Skybook used to send me all kinds of neat stuff, but it ends. They've gone out of their way to fulfill promised goods... paid a lot to get me a CSU jersey from the CSU bookstore and Fed-exed to boot. I've got beer machines, basketballs, coffee,flowers, and all kinds of stuff from them.

Once they be convinced you won't lose it eventually ends... no problem with that, good business ! 5 Dimes is similar, beat them no more bonuses, no problem !

Time to graduate to Mansion, and make offers !

**Satyr** · 03-01-06, 04:30 AM

Originally posted by BuddyBear

You have a lot of balls to be talking like this to one of the top 20 gaming forum posters of all time especially considering you have 4 posts.

You seem like an idiot Satyr

this post sums it all up you live in your own world.
And if someone like you, who considers a royal shill poster of the month, and anti-israel propaganda a "strong post", is an important part of this community...ill pass

**Satyr** · 03-01-06, 04:32 AM

Originally posted by pags11

satyr,

who you calling a noob boy? I'm far from a noob...

you perfectly prooved that in this thread, congratulations

**pags11** · 03-01-06, 05:13 AM

Doug and freebie,

I had no idea that they made you re-deposit winnings/ put them back at risk again and make you roll it over 5 times...totally reminds me of five dimes (which I've since also graduated from)...you make a lot of good points...that is good to hear that skybook has bent over backwards with their CS to you though...

**Doug** · 03-01-06, 08:19 AM

5D is a good shop, they just refuse bonuses if your lifetime ahead of them, they'll tell you an exact #, BTW. Sky will too, they'll give you a bonus as well if you re-up everything you've ever won, not 100% sure what the roll would be. I've always passed that option.