How are the black market, paid under the table non income tax payers getting rebates?

[swede96]

Since you are not woman enough to have children yet, either emotionally or financially, that's fine. Wait until you are (if that ever does happen). But shut the pie hole when it comes to the government helping those who did make the decision that they wanted to take on the responsibility and were ready for it.

Are YOU really naive enough to believe that every parent out there made the decision to WANT to have their child? Really? For the record, if I were to get pregnent right now, I could get my affairs in order and be an excellent mom. However, I would like to have more money in the bank and mentally prepare my self more. This is not egocentricity. I want this for the welfare of my future children. I consider being a parent to be a very serious responsibility. I want to be sure I can provide my child with everything he or she needs before I start my family. Please, explain to me how that makes me "not woman enough" or "egocentric" for that.

If you think the help given by the gov't is more than a token help, as compared to the entire cost of having a child, you are showing your naivete again. Just be quiet, thank people like your parents for doing what you, as of yet, are unwilling to do and be done with it. Perhaps put a condom on your tongue so these silly thoughts don't keep slipping out?

And if you think the cost of raising YOUR children is the government's problem, you are showing you ignorance. Again, if they were giving out checks to good parents, I'd be the first one to DONATE to the fund. My problem with this is the people who plop their kids in front of a TV for 12 hours a day and think they should be rewarded for simply reproducing. What percentage of those checks do you think will actually go towards the things the children need?

Oh, and I will thank my parents. They instilled in me how important it is to not have children until you are sure you can provide them with everything they need both financially and emotionally.

P.S. I'm 24...I don't consider it odd or a poor reflection on me if I'm not quite ready to have kids yet.

[swede96]

I can't speak for her, but I think that her point might be somewhat misunderstood. She is a person who does not have children, so she couldn't possibly speak as a person who does. She works hard, goes to school and pays her taxes. Individuals who do not have children often feel somewhat disgruntled when their tax dollars are applied to those who chose to reproduce. Are they wrong for feeling that way? That question can best be answered by each person individually.

Whenever there are two heated sides going at it, not just here, but in regards to anything, I am usually somewhere in the middle trying to weed out fact from personal opinion.

My employment background is in human services. I know, hard to believe with the lack of empathy I sometimes possess. I currently work in the private sector, so don't worry...I am not chatting on your dollar.

My issue is that in this country, people often use children as a vehicle to survive. We can blame the welfare system for that. Sadly, reform came too late and we are now dealing with 4th generation individuals who rely on these services.

I am trying to type this as I am dealing with other things at work, so if this doesn't make sense, I apologize.

Well put Robyn.

[RageWizard]

As a person who does have a child, I would have to say I can see how the people who don't have kids would be pissed. In my neighbothood they built a new school that sank into a sink hole so they were forced to build a second school on some different land. As you may have guessed, the property taxes have shot through the roof and many of the Mennonite farmers in the area are unable to pay the taxes. They have a Shit load of kids but don't use the public school system because of their religous beliefs. My point being why should somebody else be forced to pay for my kids services when I was the one who decided to have or didn't prevent the birth in the first place.

[swede96]

Thank you Rage, that's another point I wanted to make, but I knew I'd come off as a heartless bitch.

If I don't want kids, that's my business. Why the fvck do I have to pay for the new gym at the highschool?

[Robyn]

Hillary the Great once said...."It takes a village to raise a child".

If that is the case, I would rather move to a different village. I know what kind of parents exist out there, and if I had children, I wouldn't want them having ANYTHING to do with my kids.

[moneyline]

Well, luckily the powers-that-be don't agree with the childless viewpoint of "I'm taking care of me, you take care of you" philosophy when it comes to children who are unable to take of themselves.

Keep using those condoms, Swede. Sounds like you are doing the right thing, not procreating and all.

[Robyn]

Well, luckily the powers-that-be don't agree with the childless viewpoint of "I'm taking care of me, you take care of you" philosophy when it comes to children who are unable to take of themselves.

If they did, I have a feeling that people would think twice before having children. But that's just my opinion. Kids are so freaking expensive now!

[swede96]

I'm astonished by the number of people that seem to think it's everyone elses job to help them once they have children. If you can't take care of them, don't have them. It's not about me just taking care of me. If you had any idea what I have been through in my life taking care of other people, you would eat your words.

How is "I'm taking care of me, you take care of you." worse than "I can't take care fo me and the people I am responsible for so you have to."?

[Panic]

Just so long as its all fairplay. I'll take care of my family, no problem. My responsibility. Don't want the help, don't need the help. But then don't turnaround and try to make me pay into...say, a healthcare package that helps people get treatment for lung cancer from smoking when they can't afford it. I didn't force them to smoke. Why should I pay for their medicine and hospitalization?

[swede96]

If they did, I have a feeling that people would think twice before having children. But that's just my opinion. Kids are so freaking expensive now!

Me too, Robyn. And I think they should. Too many people these days rely on the safety nets put in place by the government. The welfare program and everything else are just that: safety nets. They're designed to catch people when they fall and help them get back up. The problem is: we have people not even trying to stay on the tightrope and falling without ever planning on getting back up. We these checks, the government is helping good parents that need a little extra, but it's also rewarding crappy parents for using the sefty net as their personal hammock.

[moneyline]

You judge a society by the way they treat those who cannot take care of themselves. That includes, but is not limited to, the handicapped and children. Giving any family a bit of extra money is preferable to you buying a new pair of shoes, Swede. Sorry, darlin'. That's what I think. That's what the majority thinks. That's the way it is.

One of the reasons America is, indeed, a great country.

[swede96]

Just so long as its all fairplay. I'll take care of my family, no problem. My responsibility. Don't want the help, don't need the help. But then don't turnaround and try to make me pay into...say, a healthcare package that helps people get treatment for lung cancer from smoking when they can't afford it. I didn't force them to smoke. Why should I pay for their medicine and hospitalization?

Ug, don't even get me started on healthcare, Panic. I agree with you 100%...and I do smoke. I'm also only at the doctor about twice a year...where does the rest of my money go?

[Robyn]

Just so long as its all fairplay. I'll take care of my family, no problem. My responsibility. Don't want the help, don't need the help. But then don't turnaround and try to make me pay into...say, a healthcare package that helps people get treatment for lung cancer from smoking when they can't afford it. I didn't force them to smoke. Why should I pay for their medicine and hospitalization?

Exactly!!!

[Panic]

Ug, don't even get me started on healthcare, Panic. I agree with you 100%...and I do smoke. I'm also only at the doctor about twice a year...where does the rest of my money go?

I'm with ya. Everyone should stand by, what's called, their personal responsibility. I'm sick of people expecting everyone else to bail them out when they made the wrong choice. How will they learn from that?

[swede96]

You judge a society by the way they treat those who cannot take care of themselves. That includes, but is not limited to, the handicapped and children. Giving any family a bit of extra money is preferable to you buying a new pair of shoes, Swede. Sorry, darlin'. That's what I think. That's what the majority thinks. That's the way it is.

One of the reasons America is, indeed, a great country.

If I had a dick....would you be so condescending towards me? I mean, first I want my nails done and now I want new shoes? If you're not smart enough to have a debate without making inflamitory insults, then admit it and walk away.

I am all for helping those that cannot take care fo themselves. But at the end of the day, the check goes to the parents. Who's to say mom doesn't cash the check and buy herself some new shoes? What then? Do you really think that every one of those checks will go towards something the child needs? I believe I've asked that question twice now...yet you still haven't answered it...because you know I have a good point.

[moneyline]

How about people that eat bad foods and need medical help as a result? Who don't wear their seat belt and get into accidents? Those who have sex without protection and contract diseases? People who speed and get into accidents? Those who engage in extreme sports and hurt themselves? Or those who don't do any exercise at all and need extra medical attention?

None of these people should be bailed out. Make them pay their own way or put them on the streets, with time to think about how they did wrong -- the holier than thou can continue to genuflect on how 'right' they've been their entire lives -- or lucky?

(oh, and Swede -- your point is a specious one -- you see, not every check does go to a deserving family. Your solution seems to either give no checks out at all, have a mystery system that determines who is worthy and who is not for the pittance that is given out or just sit back and bitch about the checks being given out ... interesting ...)

[Panic]

How about people that eat bad foods and need medical help as a result? Who don't wear their seat belt and get into accidents? Those who have sex without protection and contract diseases? People who speed and get into accidents? Those who engage in extreme sports and hurt themselves? Or those who don't do any exercise at all and need extra medical attention?

None of these people should be bailed out. Make them pay their own way or put them on the streets, with time to think about how they did wrong -- the holier than thou can continue to genuflect on how 'right' they've been their entire lives -- or lucky?

Much like Swede said about lining up for good parents, I'll run along the same lines here.

If people are having health problems that DO NO occur stemming from stupidity(like smoking, drinking a bottle of whiskey a day, mainveining crack, ect..) than I'll be the first to donate and help out.

[swede96]

How about people that eat bad foods and need medical help as a result? Who don't wear their seat belt and get into accidents? Those who have sex without protection and contract diseases? People who speed and get into accidents? Those who engage in extreme sports and hurt themselves? Or those who don't do any exercise at all and need extra medical attention?

None of these people should be bailed out. Make them pay their own way or put them on the streets, with time to think about how they did wrong -- the holier than thou can continue to genuflect on how 'right' they've been their entire lives -- or lucky?

I made one comment about that and I'll respong to this. Then if you want to debate that, we can move it to another thread.

I don't know what the answer is, but it bothers me that insurance premiums keep going up and I put a lot of money into my insurance from each paycheck when I only use it twice a year, if that. It would be nice if a percentage went into a flexible spending account for me to offset dental work I need done that's not covered. I put that money in and I didn't cost the insurance half as much as I put into my policy. Would it kill them to give a little back?

[swede96]

Much like Swede said about lining up for good parents, I'll run along the same lines here.

If people are having health problems that DO NO occur stemming from stupidity(like smoking, drinking a bottle of whiskey a day, mainveining crack, ect..) than I'll be the first to donate and help out.

Yeah, and I'm sorry...but as far as extreme sports go: If you just HAVE to find the best surf in the world knowing full well that there are sharks in that water...it's not my problem when you lose a leg.

[Panic]

Yeah, and I'm sorry...but as far as extreme sports go: If you just HAVE to find the best surf in the world knowing full well that there are sharks in that water...it's not my problem when you lose a leg.

Or if you don't want to wear your seatbelt because it doesn't look cool and you run into a pole with your head going through the windshield. Whoops.

[swede96]

Or if you don't want to wear your seatbelt because it doesn't look cool and you run into a pole with your head going through the windshield. Whoops.

Let's run away and be heartless, egocentric assholes together!

[Panic]

Let's run away and be heartless, egocentric assholes together!

I'm in.

[moneyline]

Be hard to do, Swede. Since you are egocentric, it's not exactly an activity you do with another person ... just admit what you are. It's the first step to happiness.

(oh, and a bit judgmental as well -- but then you get offended when others are judgmental about you -- cute in a way

[ShamsWoof10]

do I have STUPID stamped on my forehead?.

YES!!!

He makes many good points as to why...

If you think the help given by the gov't is more than a token help, as compared to the entire cost of having a child, you are showing your naivete again.

I told you her problem LONG ago... She has a chip on her shoulder and spends too much time comparing herself to others...

[swede96]

Be hard to do, Swede. Since you are egocentric, it's not exactly an activity you do with another person ... just admit what you are. It's the first step to happiness.

(oh, and a bit judgmental as well -- but then you get offended when others are judgmental about you -- cute in a way

I'm not judgemental, I'm in touch with reality. I don't care what people do. To each his/her own. What bothers me is when it is made my problem and I have no say in the matter.

[swede96]

I told you her problem LONG ago... She has a chip on her shoulder and spends too much time comparing herself to others...

Shamswoof, go feed the poor or something if your heart is bleeding for them so bad.

[SSLP]

swede marry me

[swede96]

Now, do you really think I'm nice enough to agree to that without seeing the rock? I AM greedy and completely self-absorbed, you know.

[moneyline]

Time for me to go help the poor again. My clients await me, if Swede deems they deserve help off the public dime again.

Funny thing about all of this is, I am a Republican. Who would've thunk it?

[Robyn]

I am very judgmental.

[Panic]

I am very judgmental.

I'm not paying for that!

[Robyn]

That's ok, Panic. It's a dirty habit and I'm willing to pick up the tab on my own.