everytime i make changes to passwords, security questions, email address or transactions i get an email confirmation from pinnacle. Did you get any when your account was played with?
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Comment -
in almost all cases where players accounts are hacked into, it has nothing to do with keyloggers, or someone hacking into your personal computer and grabbing personal data such as passwords. It's always some rogue employee who sells part of the player database on the black market. The security systems in place are only designed to protect the sportsbooks and casinos. The sportsbooks and casinos do nothing to protect thier players against this type of theft. And every time it happens, they deny any of thier employees were involved. But there is always an employee involved.Comment -
How Webmoney could steal my money?
The swindlers have reserved payment of my money from the Pinnacles account in system Webmoney. I contacted Webmoney, when has seen that money was deduced through this system. I at once have sent the complaint in arbitration Webmoney and swindlers WMID (purse) was blocked. But was already late. To return money from there it is not obviously possible. Money was translated in system LR ( Costa Rica).Comment -
I did not have access to mine primary e-mail. Someone has stolen my password and changed it.
I have written Pinnacles from another e-mail address, not primary, and asking to block my account, of course, i send
documents which proof my identity.
At me only one claim to Pinnacle. This infringement of this rule:
" Accounts with credit card deposits may not use Moneybookers or Webmoney as a method to withdraw ".
Why in my case the exception was made I do not understand. This rule should in addition secure me.
In a result Pinnacle has broken the rules and I have lost money.Comment -
Guys, I ask you about the small help.
Write in Pinnacle, and set to them such question:
"I am thinking about opening an account at pinnacle, i would like to know :
If i deposit (first time) money using my credit card after that i deposit money using Webmoney, will i be able to use webmoney to withdraw any sum of my money ?"
The Pinnacles answers publish in this topic, please.Comment -
Guys , it is not difficult.Comment -
Well, I have written Pinnacle from another e-mail and has set a question described above.
The answer Pinnacle:
" Dear Sir,
No withdrawals are processed using WebMoney when there are credit card deposits. You may withdrawal either by bank wire. "
Why in my case the exception was made I do not understand. I shall remind : I deposit (first time) money using my credit and Pinnacle has paid all my money to the swindlers on an anonymous Webmoney purse.
This is last Pinnacles letter to me :
"Dear Sir,
On 2 December 2007 Pinnacle Sports received a request for a Webmoney withdrawal which was sent from the registered email address in the account. As we state on our site, we use the registered email address to identify our clients. We also requested the Pinnacle Sports' Account ID, which was correctly provided.
We processed the requested withdrawal and sent an advisory to the registered email address that the withdrawal was complete.
We also state on our site it is the client's responsibility to keep safe his Pinnacle Sports' Account ID. Pinnacle Sports cannot be held responsible for transactions requested from the registered email address with the correct Account ID also provided.
We list several methods of withdrawal when credit cards are used for deposits. However, there is no policy posted under Webmoney withdrawals on this issue.
It appears an unauthorized person may have accessed your email. However, they also had access to your correct Pinnacle Sports' Client ID, which was your responsibility to keep safe. For the security of our clients and Pinnacle Sports, only when the email is received from the registered email address, including the correct Client ID are withdrawals processed.
Pinnacle Sports followed its security policies by correctly receiving the email and the Client ID.
Regards,
Bridgette, Director
Customer Service Department
Pinnacle Sports "
What you will say on this, guys?Comment -
Soon will pass two months as I have addressed in sbr and has received from the sbr employee this letter:
" Normally when funds are stolen from a player account, it is a sad situation, but the book shares no part of the blame. However you rightly point out that the money should not have been sent to Webmoney by the rules since he deposited with credit card. On top of that the money hadn't been rolled over so no withdrawal should have been allowed. Either one of these things should have stopped the withdrawal, but somehow did not.
I have emailed Pinnacle asking for possible compensation and a better explination of how this could have happen. "
But till now my case has not moved.Comment -
You do not give too many details but the most logical explanation to this story is that you made more than one deposit and your last deposits were not made with credit card. Is that true or not?
The second question I have is what was your account balance on December 2nd/3rd, before you lost access to your account and what was the amount withdrawn via Webmoney.Comment -
2 Data
I made first and unique deposits through a credit card.
Yes the swindlers have made very small deposit of newly created (2-Dec-2007) WebMoney ID (not adhered to the real documents) and
IMMEDIATE request of withdrawal of all account balance, even it is not
allowed but cashier rules!
But:
Not important when you used a credit card, once or many times, first or last time.
If you used a credit card though once, other withdrawals methods become for you inaccessible, except bank translation or check.
About it speak
1. Pinnacles rules .
2.The players on other forums (russians) http://www.byw.ru/showthread.php?t=22505 and http://www.bkfon.ru/forum/thread.php...did=13412&sid=
3. Pinnacles a support service.
Any of you can it check up, having written them the letter.
"I am thinking about opening an account at pinnacle, i would like to know :
If i deposit (first time) money using my credit card after that i deposit money using Webmoney, will i be able to use webmoney to withdraw any sum of my money ?"
On it I have received the unequivocal answer :
"Dear Sir,
No withdrawals are processed using WebMoney when there are credit card deposits. You may withdrawal either by bank wire. "Comment -
Andrey,
Will check with Pinnacle tomorrow. If I remember correctly your home computer was hacked and we agreed with the fact that since the deposit amount didn't go back to the credt card per book policy there would be a valid claim for that amount. Pinnacle asked you to supply info to the processor for their investigation?Comment -
Bill
I do not understand, why you speak about payment back on a credit card in Pinnacle?
Read it, it is possible you did not know:
" Due to changes in **** and ********** rules, Pinnacle Sports is unable to return funds to member credit cards. "
( http: // www.pinnaclesports.com/faqcashier.aspx /Can I receive a payout back to my Credit Card?)
My claim to Pinnacles :
According to (Pinnacles rules, the answers of their support service, experience of other players) I should receive the money only with a cheque or bank wire transfer. This rule should in addition secure me. But in my case the exception was made when I have lost access to my account. Pinnacles has paid my money to the swindlers on an anonymous Webmoney purse.
I ask compensation of my money.Comment -
My first deposit from a credit card was - 750 (euro) (about 1070 dollars).
It was - 5 November 2007.
I have made about 35-40 bets.
2 December 2007 my account balance was 1650 (euro) (about 2350 dollars).
The swindlers have withdrawn all money through Webmoney.
Now on account about 1.7 euro.Comment -
This makes sense. That would be a smart move for an inside guy to stiff a player from Eastern Europe, almost nobody is going to belive whatever that player says.
Andrey111, what email system was your registered with Pinnacle account on? Were your Pinnacle and email passwords the same? Have you regained access to that email system? Have you contacted that email system's admin to restore all the emails that were deleted while you had no access?Comment -
bill said his home computer was hackdComment -
-One more exception was made in my case : balance was paid including a bonus, which turnover conditions weren't met, so the thief stole not only mine, but pinnaclesports money too.
Is it too much exceptions for one case ?
- The rules of payment were impudently broken at that moment when I have lost access to my bill.
- My game accounts in other sportsbooks have not suffered.
Suspiciously? Is it ?Comment -
This is the clearest case ever. Pinny didn't even follow its own rules. They paid out to a payment method they weren't supposed to given his deposit method, paid out a bonus which wasn't even rolled over, and the guy still hasn't been taken care of? He's credible IMO.Comment -
-www.rambler.ru
-The passwords were different, but e-mail the password was much easier than in Pinnacles.
-Access to primary e-mail I have restored after 10 days, through a support service of mail.
-No, the removed letters I did not try to restore.
Obviously swindlers used my e-mail some days, not changing the password. I did not know about it.
Pinnacles speaks that the swindlers have sent the letter about withdrawn money even on November 29. To them have not paid because I have not sent in Pinnacle the documents about my credit card (copies of the credit card, front and back, a valid identification with picture ID, etc.) to this moment.
When I have seen that my wager became -1 euro, I have understood that it is necessary to send these documents.
November 31 I have sent all documents.
But in this case I do not speak about safety. The safety of the passwords is my problem.
I speak that there was an infringement of rules or exception of the rules, which are published on a Pinnacle site . Exceptions in such important cases as withdrawn money.
If I knew that the exceptions are possible, I would ask to block all Webmoney operations for my account when I only open account. All this with the purposes of safety.
But in published Pinnacle rules about such exceptions said nothing.
And the answers of a support service were unequivocal : "No withdrawals are processed using WebMoney when there are credit card deposits ".
If exceptions was not made - it would be not possible to take away my money.
Any lawyer to you will say that in my claims on indemnification are fair in this situation.Comment -
Andrey111, Pinnacle's CSD says that they received a request from your email account registered with them. Do you see that email in Sent folder? If not ask Rambler's support to help you with this. You need all deleted messages restored and you also should ask them if they have the logs and if they can tell you what IP address that email was sent from. You not doing this looks very suspicious too.Comment -
I asked e-mail support :
"Inform me IP of the man, which has broken or has stolen my password.
This IP should be written down somewhere."
I have received the answer, I quote :
"We do not give the similar information on inquiry of the users".
The same answer was and from Webmoney support.
These letters till now are kept in my mail.
Data ,
Why I should restore the removed letters?
What changes will be in my case after that ?
Read attentively my previous post (second part of post).
If I did not use a credit card (used for example, bank wire), and
similar situation there was - any claims to Pinnaclesports I would not have.Comment -
Do you have all the emails between Pinnacle and the stiff? Ther should be at least 4 emails. Do you have them?
The emails sent from your account are the evidence. You are not being stiffed by Pinnacle itself but by somebody who may or may not be associated with them. You need to contact your local law authority so they could start criminal investigation as you are a victim of a computer crime. And again, emails sent from Rambler's email system are the evidence.Comment -
I checked and there is no word "only" in Pinnacle's rules and that makes the meaning of the rule in question quite different from the way you likely understood it.
Here is the exact quote of the rule currently posted on their website:
________________________________________ ___________
Please note that withdrawals from accounts with credit card deposits are processed with a cheque (CAD accounts only), bank wire transfer with the exception of RMB accounts, INSTADEBIT (CAD accounts only), myCitadel, (SEK, GBP, RMB and selected countries that use the EURO as their currency) Moneybookers (RMB accounts only) or NETELLER.
________________________________________ ___________
What they say here is that they CAN process withdrawals using the methods described here. However, that does not mean that these are the ONLY methods and that there are no other ways to withdraw money after cc deposit.Comment -
I understand what you speak about.
But my understanding and understanding of my lawyer differs from yours a little.
So :
1.In rules the accessible methods for withdrawn after use of a credit card are listed: they are concrete, but there you will not find a word Webmoney.
If they can process withdrawals using the other methods not described here, in the end there should be a such word " and also other methods, or another, or etc. "
Is it logical not so?
2.I already wrote here, that has received from Pinnacle support service the answer to my question concerning a credit card and Webmoney.
He was:
" No withdrawals are processed using WebMoney when there are credit card deposits."
"Dear Sir,
Please note that accounts with credit card deposits may not use Moneybookers or Webmoney as a method to withdraw.
The availble methods will depend on the currency you choose for your account."
I think the answer is unequivocal and be clear.
You do not think so? The same answer can receive any of you.
3.When I first time have got on a site Pinnacle I began to read rules.
I have chosen for a site language from the list "Russian".
The same rule in Russian, I quote (it till now on a site) :
"Снятие средств с игрового счета, который был пополнен при помощи кредитной карты, производится только чеком (для счетов с валютой CAD), банковским переводом (за исключением счетов с валютой RMB), через INSTADEBIT (для счетов с валютой CAD), myCitadel (для валют SEK, GBP, RMB и некоторых странах с валютой Евро), Moneybookers (только для счетов с валютой RMB) или NETELLER."
You should not know Russian for you I shall translate only one word.
The word "только" is translated on English language as "only". ("только"="only")
So in this rule there is a word "only".
It means that we have a strict rule in this case. Means that other opportunities which are not satisfying to this rule are forbidden.
And you want after that say what Pinnacle should be first in a rating ?Comment -
I think we just found where exactly Pinnacle is wrong, they have their rules inaccurately translated to Russian. I checked how this rule is worded in Spanish and in German and as far as I can see the meaning is the same as in English.
I am asking you to think about two issues and see what you can do to address them. First, Pinnacle has the rules not accurately translated to Russian that have mislead you. They did NOT brake their rules. You had you Pinnacle ID submitted as a part of a scam scheme. You DID brake their rules to protect your Pinnacle ID. So, you main point that Pinnacle broke their rules is faulty. Second, you are trying to make Pinnacle responsible for this scam but you do not seem to be doing much to find out who actually stole your money and that looks very suspicious. Keep in mind that you provide NO EVIDENCE that it was not you trying to scam Pinnacle with that scheme.Comment -
Data, you and yours management know that the rule was broken.
I shall repeat once again :
1.In the published rules on a site Pinnacle, which we quote, the methods of withdrawal of money are listed. They are concrete. This list includes all accessible methods of withdrawal which only are available. But there you will not find a word "Webmoney", but all other methods here are listed. If they can process withdrawals using the other methods, which not described here , in the end there should be a such word " and also other methods, or another, or etc. "
Because withdrawal of money it not jokes. They should be concrete. And they actually are concrete.
Is it necessary to publish rules if they are not concrete ?
2. 99 % of the players, on own experience have learned, that it is impossible to receive withdrawal on Webmoney if they used a credit card even once in Pinnacle.
I asked here: http://www.byw.ru/showthread.php?t=22505 (the largest russian bitting forum)
Is it all facts? Yes, it is facts.
And you still speak that the rules were not broken ?
3.What concerning the answers of Pinnacle support service about withdrawal on Webmoney after use of a credit card? (" No withdrawals are processed using WebMoney when there are credit card deposits." )
Is it fact? Yes, it is fact.
And you still speak that the rules were not broken ?
4.Balance was paid including a bonus, which turnover conditions weren't met, so the thief stole not only mine, but pinnaclesports money too. It confirms very frustrating and unprofessional job from Pinnacles cashier team...
Is it fact? Yes, it is fact.
I contacted Webmoney, when has seen that money was deduced through this system. I at once have sent the complaint in arbitration Webmoney that ID of the swindlers was blocked.
Moreover I had ask the man with one higher Webmoney certificate that he has submitted the complaint too and the purse was blocked immediately. Instead of in some days. Your company can it check up.
Also I e-mailed Liberty Reserve system (where was translation of my money from Webmoney).
Also I asked the manager of a support service е-mail, I wrote to you about it already.Comment -
Andrey111, I just want to make it clear that I am neither affiliated with SBR nor with Pinnacle. I was participating in this thread just trying to help to find a stiff. Due to your responses I think I lost interest in this matter.
I was trying to point out that emails and the logs stored on Rambler system can help clearing this up and provide a lead for finding the stiff. I doubt that Rambler would refuse helping you on this matter because you would be asking about YOUR account. By some reason, you were not interested in the emails the stiff sent from your Rambler account and the replies from Pinnacle CSD. You never doubted that the stiff and Pinnacle exchanged emails and they started doing this even BEFORE you lost access to your email. It seems that you saw those emails and therefore knew about what is going on. That explains why you are refusing to make the steps that would lead to discovering the stiff.Comment -
When I have restored e-mail access , in the "accepted " I have found two letters from Pinnacle. In these letters Pinnacle answered the swindler with the citation of his letters.
That is why I had no need to restore the removed letters through a support service. (This e-mail was only for Pinnacle, after that case I do not use it. If you so are interested in this case I can give you login and password.
You will see all. Send me the private message and write yours e-mail I shall send you Ramblers login with password. )
Concerning the letter, which the thieves have sent November 29 :
I did not see him, but Pinnacle has sent me the citation of this letter.
Concerning yours doubt about Ramblers refusal ( they have not given me IP of the swindlers).
As I already spoke, this letter, as well as all others in Pinnacle case, are till now kept in my e-mail. If me will ask Bill Dozer, I shall give to him my access (login and password).Comment -
Good idea, I've been reading the thread and if my account was hacked or whatnot and I lost a bunch of money and I had a lawyer (as he states) analyzing the rules and regs, I'd have said lawyer contact Webmoney and Rambler to obtain the IP's and other information pertinant to this matter as well I'd have already contacted my local authorities to report online fraud whereas they could also get in on the action.
Maybe he's another one crying wolf blaming a top notch book and trying to get more $$. Personally I call scam, but lets see what Bill finds out.Comment -
if your not willing to get your emails restored thats one thing. But you should provide documentation of an attempt to get them restored.
Example. Written request to have them restored. Then the document they send you back indicating they can't restore them or won't.
Eitherway, i don't know books that payout against there own policies and don't wait for rollovers on bonuses... Books are like everyone else they want there money too and in this case he had to bet more of it to get his payout. This wasn't done. I think Pinnacle is liable for this.Comment -
If I even have learned swindlers IP, at me would be 1 from 10 millions chances to find home address of the swindler. You heard about anonymous proxy or about dynamic IP? Or you think what the swindlers live in the next street? All these hackers can be live in any place of the world.
I successful player. I played in Pinnacle only about 25 days.. For this time I have made approximately 35-40 bets.
I have earned 1300 (in dollars) for this time.
Though the majority of my bets were not great (about 40-110 dollars on one bet).
I have no need to deceive Pinnacle.
All that I speak in this case it is possible to check up.
I speak not words, I speak the facts.
And only facts. And the facts speak, that Pinnacle rules were roughly broken.Comment -
Bill
What positions SBR and personally yours in my case? Give the official answer in this occasion, please.Comment
