The Death Of Las Vegas

[MonkeyF0cker]

Used to be a big deal to go to vegas and bet on sports or play blackjack. Now your a click away from placing a bet or a couple miles from a card room in your own state the old vegas feeling will never return.

Yeah. But can you go watch Donnie and Marie live at your casino?

[milwaukee mike]

"As long as the national economy continues to grow, the casinos here will be fine. When the national unemployment rate comes down to healthy levels, it will be business as usual here again."

what are you ON and where can i get some?
the rest of us live in a little place called REALITY, not tv land where everything is "recovering nicely". the national economy is done growing, it will continue to shrink as unemployment benefits (a whopping 99 weeks in most states) finally run out.

and vegas? come on, there won't be any new construction for a decade - the unemployed construction workers will stay unemployed and more will join them.

even if there is more consumer/business travel 2 years from now (which there won't be) there still won't be any construction jobs.

[MonkeyF0cker]

"As long as the national economy continues to grow, the casinos here will be fine. When the national unemployment rate comes down to healthy levels, it will be business as usual here again."

what are you ON and where can i get some?
the rest of us live in a little place called REALITY, not tv land where everything is "recovering nicely". the national economy is done growing, it will continue to shrink as unemployment benefits (a whopping 99 weeks in most states) finally run out.

and vegas? come on, there won't be any new construction for a decade - the unemployed construction workers will stay unemployed and more will join them.

even if there is more consumer/business travel 2 years from now (which there won't be) there still won't be any construction jobs.

Umm. The US GDP growth was 3% for the first quarter of the year. In fact, we've had three straight quarters of GDP growth. How's that for reality? There is more to the economy here than construction jobs.

[milwaukee mike]

HAHAHAHAHA talk about being easily fooled by statistics

1) we hardly produce anything, so "gdp" is something of a misnomer "gross domestic product"?
2) if inflation runs at over 3% and the gdp "growth" is 3% then is the economy growing? for example, a pound of peaches were $1.99 last year, now they're $2.99. the grocery store sold 10,000 lbs last year and 9,000 lbs this year yet their sales/gdp are up 35% as we are consuming 10% less peaches

april 2010 to april 2009 cpi-u is "only" up 2.2% according to bls, but keep in mind that 60% of their number is rents which are actually declining. back out the rents and inflation is much more than 3%.

when the u.s. government is running budget deficits in the TRILLIONS and still can't push the gdp past the real inflation rate we have major problems that can't and won't be solved. eventually you can't keep paying people unemployment forever and you can't keep printing money and spending it forever. even with those things we have a terrible economy.

i do appreciate your opinion monkey and i assume we'll agree to disagree on this one.

[SlickFazzer]

looking to move there in the fall. many deals to be had. time to zig when all others zag.

[BrentCrude]

Well written Emily.

Wo,you connected all the dots and outlined the whole ball of wax in precise wording.Too bad you are from Thunder Bay,Ontario,you could be a reporter on one of the financial networks or run for office.You can't get anyone of these groups except Ron Paul and alternative internet media such as Alex Jones to tell the truth.It's all cheerleader hype wherever you look to sugar coat everything.


Do you have alot of Vegas charters from the Thunder Bay airport?How's the charity casino in Thunder Bay doing?I can't figure why the TB people cross the border to play at Grand Portage when they don't offer all the table games?Maybe something to do with being worried you will be taxed if you have a big winning night?The casinos in Winnipeg seem fair and just about what you find in Vegas as far as variety of games is concerned.

[DrunkHorseplayer]

there is plenty of money flowing in vegas. I see it every day. Vegas has been very very good to me I will tell you that.

Housing problem?? real estate agents are making a fortune in LV

buyer x has a 200k home they are living in now which is under water
RE agent Y tells buyer x to get out of that home by letting it forclose
RE Agent Y sells buyer X a home for 100k before credit crunch hits Buyer X
Agent then sells newly forclosed home to someone else who is underwater

Result: Buyer X has a home with half the mortgage payment. They file for bankruptcy and they don't lose this new home. In a few years all is well for them. Happiness all around for them.

REAgent Y makes money off selling to buyer x then makes money off selling forclosed home to buyer Q who now is no longer underwater.

rinse lather repeat!!

This is absolutely false. In the present time, lenders actually check buyers' income levels and financial situations so nobody with a house currently in foreclosure is going to get approved for a loan. In fact, about a year ago the LVRJ published an article about a woman who claimed to be making good money doing this and she turned out to be a lying sack of shit.

[MonkeyF0cker]

HAHAHAHAHA talk about being easily fooled by statistics

1) we hardly produce anything, so "gdp" is something of a misnomer "gross domestic product"?
2) if inflation runs at over 3% and the gdp "growth" is 3% then is the economy growing? for example, a pound of peaches were $1.99 last year, now they're $2.99. the grocery store sold 10,000 lbs last year and 9,000 lbs this year yet their sales/gdp are up 35% as we are consuming 10% less peaches

april 2010 to april 2009 cpi-u is "only" up 2.2% according to bls, but keep in mind that 60% of their number is rents which are actually declining. back out the rents and inflation is much more than 3%.

when the u.s. government is running budget deficits in the TRILLIONS and still can't push the gdp past the real inflation rate we have major problems that can't and won't be solved. eventually you can't keep paying people unemployment forever and you can't keep printing money and spending it forever. even with those things we have a terrible economy.

i do appreciate your opinion monkey and i assume we'll agree to disagree on this one.

Back out rents? WTF? That IS part of inflation. There is certainly growth. There is no denying it. Nobody said we were fully recovered, but things ARE improving. I'm not one who adopts the Keynesian ideas that unemployment benefits are positive for the economy. While it may help the short term, it provides almost no incentive for people to seek employment, innovate, or be entrepreneurial and create a sustainable recovery.

[MonkeyF0cker]

By the way, the CPI would suggest otherwise. Energy is the main source of inflation according to the BLS not food.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.nr0.htm

[milwaukee mike]

good points monkey, i appreciate those thoughts and agree.

i think this time around those people on unemployment (and others in this country) have gotten a little lazier and have more of a sense of entitlement than in the past, making them less motivated if and when they ever get off unemployment. also they might not have the credit availability that people had in the past to start a new business, rent space, etc.

i would also point out look how much actual FOOD has gone up (fresh fruits/vegetables) vs. the genetically modified crap that costs almost nothing to make. i try to buy peaches, nectarines, etc but it's quite painful at $3/lb when i remember them being $1/lb not too long ago.

[milwaukee mike]

also i choose to go with what i SEE not what i read.
if applebee's expands their free kids promotion from mondays only to monday-wednesday, i think they must be desperate.
if i go to macy's/saks and current season tommy bahama/polo shirts that never used to go on sale are 30% off, i think they must be desperate.
if six flags great america keeps advertising "buy one get one free" tickets and the lowest season ticket prices in 20 years, the pga has left milwaukee, nascar/indy cars have left milwaukee, brewers/cubs games weren't sold out this week, etc etc then of course i get the idea that the economy keeps getting worse.

living in a once-proud manufacturing city that is now dying like milwaukee doesn't help my attitude, so i'd like to point out that's where i am coming from in not being optimistic.

[pokernut9999]

also i choose to go with what i SEE not what i read.
if applebee's expands their free kids promotion from mondays only to monday-wednesday, i think they must be desperate.
if i go to macy's/saks and current season tommy bahama/polo shirts that never used to go on sale are 30% off, i think they must be desperate.
if six flags great america keeps advertising "buy one get one free" tickets and the lowest season ticket prices in 20 years, the pga has left milwaukee, nascar/indy cars have left milwaukee, brewers/cubs games weren't sold out this week, etc etc then of course i get the idea that the economy keeps getting worse.

living in a once-proud manufacturing city that is now dying like milwaukee doesn't help my attitude, so i'd like to point out that's where i am coming from in not being optimistic.

The economy has stalled not recovered , hard to get any worse.

Will we ever see banks offer interest on savings again ?

It will be years before any major recovery happens.

[Tomato]

[andywend]

mikejamm, you really are a horse's ass.

The plain, simple truth is that you hate the republicans because they are dead set against taking money from the rich and giving it to DEADBEAT FAILURES LIKE YOURSELF.

Instead of blaming the republican party for all of your numerous failures, why don't you get off your lazy ass and start producing for yourself instead of expecting others to do it for you?

Nothing worse than whiny, lazy, useless democrats like this guy.

[curious]

Here is the problem with America's economy.

1. Exports of raw materials are subsidized. So, it is cheaper for a foreign manufacturer to buy raw materials than for a US manufacturer. More far sighted countries put tariffs on exports of raw materials making it cheaper for local manufacturers to buy their raw materials than for foreigners. The US exports many raw materials which are difficult to get anywhere else at any price. Export of these raw materials should be banned completely.

2. Imports of raw materials are taxed. That's right. Our manufacturers are at a disadvantage because they have to pay more for raw materials. I'll give an example from my state of Mississippi. We have a lot of furniture factories. Furniture factories by cloth. Raw cloth imports are heavily taxed. Import of cut and sewn finished cloth is subsidized. End result is that the factories cannot afford to hire cut and sew workers, so Missisiippi lost over 5,000 cut and sew jobs.

3. Overseas profits are not taxed unless/until they are repatriated. Taht's right. Companies which do business in the US do not pay taxes on their overseas profits unless they try to invest those profits in the US.

4. Foreign companies pay little or no taxes. Foreign companies are allowed to play games so that they don't pay taxes. For example, Toyota plays this game. They have shell companies in places like Malaysia, Vietnam, places which have most favored trade status with the US. These companies "Buy" things from the Toyota parent company and its other subsidiaries that Toyota United States needs to import. Things like vehicles, parts for manufacturing vehicles, etc. The shell company then charges Toyota United States huge prices for these items. Toyota United States then shows no profit. Oh, and by the way the countries where these shell companies are located don't tax them. Surprise, surprise. And the IRS accepts this fantasy from Toyota United States that they aren't making any profit. They allow Toyota to send lawyers to meetings who speak only Japanese. Its preposterous.

5. World Import Export Bank is subsidized by US taxpayers. It is no secret that these "global" organizations despise the United States and do everything they can to harm the United States. Yet, American tax dollars continue to subsidize these organizations. The World Import Export Bank is particularly harmful because they provide low interest loans to EXPORTERS to the United States but deny funding to importers FROM the United States.

6. Giveaways to foreign manufacturers. Compare Toyota to General Motors. When Toyota wants to build a factory in the US here is what they get: infrastructure paid for the US taxpayers, low interest loans, grants, subsidies, fast track program for getting the building permit, ten to twenty year tax holiday on real estate tax, payroll tax, local and state tax, exemption for paying unemployment and workman's compensation tax, special dispensation so that they do not have to negotiate with unions.

General Motors gets none of this. The fast tack program for getting the building permit is huge. if an American company wants to build a factory the enviornmental wackos will delay the project for up to ten years with their nonsense. Toyota just laughed at them and got their building permits in under one year.

7. "Free" trade agreements. The only thing free about free trade is the free access these "agreements" give our trading competitors to US markets. Trade in the other direction is either outright banned, taxed so high that it is not feasible, or "cultural" barriers are put in the way of imports of US products. Just read one of these "free" trade agreements and you'll see what I mean.

8. Foreign companies not held to the same standards as US companies. Chinese companies (run by the Chinese military) sold drywall to the US that was toxic. People who used this drywall later had to rip the dryall out and redo it. Not only were the Chinese companies not forced to pay for this (they cannot be sued by American citizens) there was no restriction put on import of Chinese drywall in the future. These Chinese drywall companies did not have to and still don't have to comply with US safety standards on manufacture of drywall. Standards that US companies have to adhere to. You can find thousands of examples of this.

9. American companies overloaded with regulations. To be honest, I don't know why anyone would want to manufacture anything in the United States. A couple of dozen federal agencies will be crawling up your ass complaining about a vast array of issues. The expense of all of this nonsense is mind boggling. Foreign manufacturers don't have to deal with anything like this. And, of course our "free" trade agreements don't put tariffs on the imports equal to the extra cost that American companies have to meet all these regulations.

10. Taxes. American companies are taxed to death. Local income tax, state income tax, federal income tax, property tax, capital gains tax, employment tax, medicare tax, unemployment tax, workmen's compensation tax, sales tax... factories in China pay NO tax.

11. Insurance. Imagine being a US manufacturer and trying to buy insurance for your factory. And you will need so many different KINDS of insurance. Chinese companies don't have this expense.

12. Legal liability. Some idiot yuppies were letting their small children play outside unattended. The children climbed their neighbors fence, then pulled back the pool cover, and promptly drowned in their neighbors pool. Maybe its just me but this is clearly a case of parent negligence. Then there is the trespassing aspect. Regardless of that, the yuppies sued the company that manufactured the pool liner and won. That's right, you can't make this shit up. By what stretch of the imagination can a manufacturer of pool linings be held responsible for some idiot yuppies letting their brats commit trespass and drown themselves? Many companies wont' locate their factories in the United States due to the ridiculous legal liability environment. Oh, and guess what, American citizens cannot sue most foreign manufacturers if their exports to the United States do harm to American citizens. Why not? The WTO and the UN.

13. WTO. What a lovely organization. Another example of one of these "global" organizations that hates the United States and does everything they can to injure us. Oh, and US tax dollars subsidize these thugs. They pass trade 'agreements" that give our enemies full access to US markets while denying US access to their markets. And they make it almost impossible for American citizens to seek redress of grievances against foreign manufacturers.

How to fix it:
1. Ban export of raw materials.
2. Lift tarrifs on raw materials.
3. Tax overseas profits UNLESS they are repatriated to the United States. Do not tax overseas profits that are repatriated and invested.
4. Tax the GROSS income of foreign companies and have an alternative minimum tax just like middle class Americans have to pay. Do not allow foreign companies to play games and make up fantasies like they make no profits on their multi billion dollar operations. Levy criminal charges against any executives of foreign companies that try to get away with such games.
5. Get the US out of the World Import Export bank and eliminate all funding to the World Import Export bank and all of its affiliated organizations. Ban travel of any workers of the World Import Export bank to the United States.
6. No more giveaways to foreign manufacturers. Make it a law that anything of value given to a foreign company to entice them to move the US must be given to American companies in the same business in equal measure.
7. Declare all "free" trade agreements null and void and replace them with trade agreements which are FAIR to the US and its manufacturers.
8. Hold foreign companies to the same standards that US companies are held to. heavily tax the imports of companies that ignore these standards to level the playing field. Ban outright the import of products made by companies like Nike which uses child slave labor or that commit other extreme abuses or human rights or the environment.
9. Reform the regulation of American manufacturing to something that actually makes some kind of sense.
10. Taxes. Set the tax rate for manufacturers to be less than the lowest tax rate of all of our major trading partners.
11. Insurance. Reform the insurance industry or allow manufacturers to set up a co-op pool to take the place of insurance.
12. Legal liability. Reel in the tort lawyers and completely reform tort law. Give manufacturers some kind of protection from liability except in the cases of gross negligence.
13. WTO. Send the 8th Air Force to bomb these mother ****ers.

[Skidcom]

The transient nature of the place is also contributing to the slide I imagine. With no roots, it is easy to leave and go back from wence you came. I tried to build a brokerage office there in '98 and I quickly discovered that even though people were moving there they were "leaving" their money back home in L.A. Chicago, N.Y. etc. At the time Merrill Lynch made a big push, brought out some big producers from back east. Even they couldn't make it. As for the country as a whole? Well I think we are in a long term decline but we will enjoy a standard of living substantially higher than most of the world. The complete collapse of the US probably won't happen in our lifetimes, hopefully, but the can't miss comfort days of everyone with a pulse, an average brain and average work effort living at least a middle class life are probably over

[milwaukee mike]

curious you don't realize that the powers that be WANT global governance so they have to bring down the u.s. and european economies in order to achieve it.

there are no accidents, it is an intentional DEPRESSION.

in 1930 they didn't realize it was a depression either. 1929 the stock market crashed 60%, then recovered 60% from the bottom then 1930-1940 lost 90%. sound familiar?
2009 stock market crashes, then recovers 60% economy still sucks...

[curious]

curious you don't realize that the powers that be WANT global governance so they have to bring down the u.s. and european economies in order to achieve it.

there are no accidents, it is an intentional DEPRESSION.

in 1930 they didn't realize it was a depression either. 1929 the stock market crashed 60%, then recovered 60% from the bottom then 1930-1940 lost 90%. sound familiar?
2009 stock market crashes, then recovers 60% economy still sucks...

No, I know full well who our enemies are. The one world government traitors have gained control of both the Democrat and Republican party.

All of these policies that are dismantling American sovereignty have been supported by both parties.

The Tea Party movement is going to clean house though. Any elected politician who is not 100% pro America is going down in the upcoming elections. The media would like for everyone to believe that the Tea Party movement is right wing nutjobs acting as a front for the Republican party. But Republican incumbents are being brought down also. Our politicians show by their actions that they think the American people are ignorant, but they miscalculated and they are awakening the American people with a great anger. And the American people have shown many times that when they are aroused to take action they can accomplish great things. No, these traitors are going down.

[Sledge187]

Las Vegas needs more

[milwaukee mike]

curious you are right that there are traitors but the problem is that ALL of the politicians are traitors.
you can't replace one or two of them with decent human beings (see what happened when cynthia mckinney questioned 9/11 and almost got killed about 4 times now by israeli thugs).

the tea party movement started out as a decent idea, then turned libertarian, then totally got compromised by fox news installing their neo-con thugs like sarah palin at the rallies.

as long as the media controls the perception of 90% of americans, they can keep playing the democrat/republican garbage for a while.
"meet the new boss same as the old boss"

if you think the tea party will change anything, you're as delusional and naive as the people that thought the 2006 congressional elections would bring an end to our illegal wars and occupation of the middle east. and the people that though the 2008 presidential election would do the same.
even though 80%+ of the population disapprove of congress they're still not willing to do anything about it other than vote for the "other" scumbag party which doesn't happen to currently be in power.

[curious]

curious you are right that there are traitors but the problem is that ALL of the politicians are traitors.
you can't replace one or two of them with decent human beings (see what happened when cynthia mckinney questioned 9/11 and almost got killed about 4 times now by israeli thugs).

the tea party movement started out as a decent idea, then turned libertarian, then totally got compromised by fox news installing their neo-con thugs like sarah palin at the rallies.

as long as the media controls the perception of 90% of americans, they can keep playing the democrat/republican garbage for a while.
"meet the new boss same as the old boss"

if you think the tea party will change anything, you're as delusional and naive as the people that thought the 2006 congressional elections would bring an end to our illegal wars and occupation of the middle east. and the people that though the 2008 presidential election would do the same.
even though 80%+ of the population disapprove of congress they're still not willing to do anything about it other than vote for the "other" scumbag party which doesn't happen to currently be in power.

Well, I think you are ****ing retarded to call Sarah Palin a "thug".

The war against Afghanistan is not illegal, forces launched an attack on the US from within their country and the government at the time was in collusion of those forces. They were offered the chance to hand over the perpetrators but they thought they could win a war with us and they said no. The Taleban expected an invasion from outside and were taken totally by surprise by 700 special operations forces and their Afghan allies from INSIDE Afghanistan and they were totally routed, taking 70,000 casualties. If Bush hadn't of been such a retard we would have bagged Bin Laden and the entire leadership of al-Qaeda and the Taleban at Bora Bora.

The war against Iraq was not illegal, it was the continuation of the war that resulted from Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, a war which was not concluded, only paused by a truce. Sadaam continually violated the terms of the truce and was forcibly removed from office by the continuation of the war.

The Tea Party movement is a collection of people who are angry at the excesses being perpetrated on us by the traitors. What's wrong with libertarian ideas? Fox news and Sarah Palin don't control the Tea Party movement. They like to think they do but they are wrong. The Tea Party movement has not been coopted by the neo-cons, those assholes are on the list too.

And you thought the lying piece of shit Democrats would fulfill their promises in 06?

The media doesn't control the perception of 90% of the American population. Most people get their ideas from the internet. And most of the people I know, and I live in rural Mississippi, aren't stupid enough to fall for the BS that the mainstream media tries to feed us. The traitors are going down.

[blackbart]

the reason for the collapse in vegas has nothing to do with gambling.
vegas economy was driven by construction, once the large corp. stopped building {way too late} the house of cards collasped as there was no real industry to support the over blown prices. tourism is down very little, the reason the rooms are empty is they built way too many. and the condo rentals are taking some business too, as they are taking anything they can get since so many are empty. the casino companies are losing $$ due to gross mis- management, same situation as the auto industry. not due to some sudden and huge decline in gambling hold.

[tbill11]

Sounds like a Broken Social Scene.

Fantastic reference that I didn't expect on a gambling forum and have to give props to right here.

[mav2112]

their credit hasn't gone bad yet. They have been paying their mortgage faithfully.

the best part of it all is that buyer x rents out their place like a hotel to vacationers during the 9-12 months it takes to forclose on their home. so part if not all of their new mortgage is paid for by people renting out the house that they are leaving the bank.

Guess who finds them the renters? Yep RE agent Y who gets a commission for finding renters.

it is a great scam if you can get it.

of course it only works once per person but hey there are plenty of people to go around

Cant see how this would possibly work..........you would have to show way more income to prove to the lender you can make payments on the second property.......

Have you ever tried buying another house when you are already making a house payment........

Maybe would work if you had a really large down payment on the second house........

[INVEGA MAN]

The end is coming but i will be in vegas next week

[wtf]

love monkeyhomo in here jawboning the vegas economy, he is such a clown

tell us about all the property you own in vegas now that your so fukin bullish?

thats right, a total of zero i am sure, your such a buffoon

[Brock Landers]

The sky is falling!!

Oh no!

[Brock Landers]

Didn't know we had so many economists at SBR LOL

Give me a fukkin break

[unusialsusp5]

novelty has worn off. economy is headed for oblivion. red china will be taking over here sooner than you think.

[milwaukee mike]

curious i love your passion and excitement, keep up the fight


from my point of view though we are going morally and financially bankrupt in part by wasting trillions of dollars blowing up sand and people that never did anything wrong, and if you were truly libertarian you would be opposed to pre-emptive wars against tiny countries that pose us no threat.

[seaborneq]

Awesome thread. The economy is bad. Nothing stays the same. You are either living or dying. What industries are growing now? We are doomed and will die in debt. So my plea to all of you is get busy living or get busy dying. Live it up.

[milwaukee mike]

great advice seaborneq!!

too many people thinking/hoping/praying it will all get better instead of asking "what if it doesn't" let's live for the now
same as going to church hoping/praying for an afterlife - just enjoy the life you KNOW you have

i think i would be HAPPIER with a totally destroyed economy where i can just live off the land and don't have to work

[curious]

curious i love your passion and excitement, keep up the fight


from my point of view though we are going morally and financially bankrupt in part by wasting trillions of dollars blowing up sand and people that never did anything wrong, and if you were truly libertarian you would be opposed to pre-emptive wars against tiny countries that pose us no threat.

Well, I'm not a libertarian. On fiscal policies I am a Goldwater conservative, on social issues I am libertarian to a degree as long as people aren't pushing their views/culture/behavior on others who don't want it, on foreign policy I am a table pounding, venom spewing, wild eyed pro-American warmonger.

I agree that the Afghan and Iraq wars were both misconceived and mismanaged. Afghanistan particularly. The start of the Afghan war was one of the most brilliant military campaigns in history. Consider, 700 special operations forces and a few thousand Afghan militia completely destroyed the Taleban and al-Qaeda military and government infrastructure, destroyed 70,000 of their troops, drove them from the cities, and had the leadership of both the Taleban and al-Qaeda trapped at Bora Bora. This was such a lopsided victory that I cannot come up with a military campaign that even comes close. Bush the Lesser then made two disastrous mistakes. First, he failed to finish the job. The head of the special forces operation who was present at Bora Bora begged the Bush administration for 4,000 Army Rangers to be parachuted in to bag Ben Laden and the rest of the Taleban and al-Qaeda leadership, Bush the Lesser said no. If the leadership of the Taleban and al-Qaeda had been destroyed at Bora Bora this would have sent a message to the rest of our enemies that they better stand down or be destroyed. The second mistake was that after destroying the Taleban and al-Qaeda we stayed as an occupier. What we should have done was turn the country over to the tribal leaders at the local level and then give them reconstruction aid. The local tribal leaders given proper support will keep the Taleban out. The problem is they have never been given this support. You cannot "rule" Afghanistan from the center (Kabul), you can only get the tribes to hate you less than they hate their other enemies. One of the reasons that the Afghanis hate America is that we got them to fight the USSR for us, there country was completely destroyed, and then when the USSR was beaten, we said "thanks" and left them on their own. They wanted reconstruction money to rebuild their economy. Then, to add insult to injury, we come back to Afghanistan and destroy the Taleban and then spend billions of dollars occupying their country and almost NOTHING rebuilding their country. That is why the Afghanis hate us.

To fix the problem in Afghanistan we need to stop trying to control Afghanistan from the center and support governance from the bottom up. Ally with the tribal leaders and give them the resources they need to rebuild their local communities. Not by bringing in large foreign contractors, but let the Afghanis do the work themselves. Let the local tribes arm and train so that they can defend their own territory from their enemies and the Taleban. Kick Karzi out of the country, he is universally despised in Afghanistan. The main point is that we need to insist that the Afghanis take on responsibility for their own future and give them the resources to fulfill that responsibility and then get out of Afghanistan. It is up to the Afghanis to build a real country together or not do it.

Iraq is a similar problem. Iraq cannot be ruled from the center unless you are willing to use an iron fist (as Sadaam did). Iraq is not a real country. A bureaucrat of the British Empire's foreign office created Iraq by drawing lines on a map. Iraq should really be four countries. Kurdistan in the north, the Western Desert, the marsh Arabs in the south and east, and Mesopotamia (the land between the two rivers). The people living in these areas do not like each other, do not trust each other, and have no cultural or historic ties except being enemies.

The only way you can rule these historic enemies of each other, if you insist on keeping them together in the same "country", is to use overwhelming force and terror, as Sadaam did. A "democracy" cannot rule Iraq because Iraqis are more interested in killing their ancient enemies than they are in building a "country" with these same enemies.

Again, the initial phase of the war was a brilliant military campaign, with one exception, there was an intelligence failure on bagging Sadaam and the rest of the Iraqi leadership hierarchy early on. This gave Sadaam time to send the entire Iraqi government home. In the US if the federal government went home we would have a party, but the Iraqi government controlled EVERYTHING. When the government workers went home the electricity stopped working, the phones stopped working, the water stopped flowing, toilets stopped flushing, stores closed, banks closed, ATM machines stopped working, the police, the fire department, ambulances, hospitals all closed. And what was Bush the Lesser's reaction? The Secretary of Defense went on world wide TV while looters were robbing the Iraqi national museum and said "well, shit happens". This statement insulted and infuriated the entire Iraqi nation.

So, imagine that every day you come home to your wife nagging you because the electricity is off, the toilets won't flush, the phones don't work, you can't buy anything because ATMs don't work and credit card machines don't work, there aren't any stores open anyway. After a few weeks of having to listen to my wife bitch about that shit I would join al-Qaeda and I'm not even a Muslim.

Then, the people who caused this mess go on world wide TV and say "oops, too bad that your national treasures are being looted, shit happens". I'm surprised that the entire Iraqi population didn't rise up and fight us. I would have been absolutely livid.

The problem with Iraq now is that Iraq is not a viable country and no one has the will or the balls to admit that and let the four groups in Iraq each have their independence. One of the excuses used for ignoring this fact is that the "Iranians will take over". That is preposterous, Iraqis HATE Iran, that is the one thing that all Iraqis can agree on. Yes, Iraqis will accept support from Iran, they will accept guns, money, training, advisors, but they will NEVER accept rule from Iran. The Iraqis would give the Iranians a war they wouldn't believe. So, that excuse is ridiculous.

The only solution I see to Iraq now is to tell the entire Iraqi population that it is up to them to build a country that they can all live in, or separate into separate countries, but America is leaving and it is up to the Iraqis to take responsibility for their own future. it will probably devolve into a horrible mess, but that is the Iraqis fault.

[Carseller4]

Well, I'm not a libertarian. On fiscal policies I am a Goldwater conservative, on social issues I am libertarian to a degree as long as people aren't pushing their views/culture/behavior on others who don't want it, on foreign policy I am a table pounding, venom spewing, wild eyed pro-American warmonger.

I agree that the Afghan and Iraq wars were both misconceived and mismanaged. Afghanistan particularly. The start of the Afghan war was one of the most brilliant military campaigns in history. Consider, 700 special operations forces and a few thousand Afghan militia completely destroyed the Taleban and al-Qaeda military and government infrastructure, destroyed 70,000 of their troops, drove them from the cities, and had the leadership of both the Taleban and al-Qaeda trapped at Bora Bora. This was such a lopsided victory that I cannot come up with a military campaign that even comes close. Bush the Lesser then made two disastrous mistakes. First, he failed to finish the job. The head of the special forces operation who was present at Bora Bora begged the Bush administration for 4,000 Army Rangers to be parachuted in to bag Ben Laden and the rest of the Taleban and al-Qaeda leadership, Bush the Lesser said no. If the leadership of the Taleban and al-Qaeda had been destroyed at Bora Bora this would have sent a message to the rest of our enemies that they better stand down or be destroyed. The second mistake was that after destroying the Taleban and al-Qaeda we stayed as an occupier. What we should have done was turn the country over to the tribal leaders at the local level and then give them reconstruction aid. The local tribal leaders given proper support will keep the Taleban out. The problem is they have never been given this support. You cannot "rule" Afghanistan from the center (Kabul), you can only get the tribes to hate you less than they hate their other enemies. One of the reasons that the Afghanis hate America is that we got them to fight the USSR for us, there country was completely destroyed, and then when the USSR was beaten, we said "thanks" and left them on their own. They wanted reconstruction money to rebuild their economy. Then, to add insult to injury, we come back to Afghanistan and destroy the Taleban and then spend billions of dollars occupying their country and almost NOTHING rebuilding their country. That is why the Afghanis hate us.

To fix the problem in Afghanistan we need to stop trying to control Afghanistan from the center and support governance from the bottom up. Ally with the tribal leaders and give them the resources they need to rebuild their local communities. Not by bringing in large foreign contractors, but let the Afghanis do the work themselves. Let the local tribes arm and train so that they can defend their own territory from their enemies and the Taleban. Kick Karzi out of the country, he is universally despised in Afghanistan. The main point is that we need to insist that the Afghanis take on responsibility for their own future and give them the resources to fulfill that responsibility and then get out of Afghanistan. It is up to the Afghanis to build a real country together or not do it.

Iraq is a similar problem. Iraq cannot be ruled from the center unless you are willing to use an iron fist (as Sadaam did). Iraq is not a real country. A bureaucrat of the British Empire's foreign office created Iraq by drawing lines on a map. Iraq should really be four countries. Kurdistan in the north, the Western Desert, the marsh Arabs in the south and east, and Mesopotamia (the land between the two rivers). The people living in these areas do not like each other, do not trust each other, and have no cultural or historic ties except being enemies.

The only way you can rule these historic enemies of each other, if you insist on keeping them together in the same "country", is to use overwhelming force and terror, as Sadaam did. A "democracy" cannot rule Iraq because Iraqis are more interested in killing their ancient enemies than they are in building a "country" with these same enemies.

Again, the initial phase of the war was a brilliant military campaign, with one exception, there was an intelligence failure on bagging Sadaam and the rest of the Iraqi leadership hierarchy early on. This gave Sadaam time to send the entire Iraqi government home. In the US if the federal government went home we would have a party, but the Iraqi government controlled EVERYTHING. When the government workers went home the electricity stopped working, the phones stopped working, the water stopped flowing, toilets stopped flushing, stores closed, banks closed, ATM machines stopped working, the police, the fire department, ambulances, hospitals all closed. And what was Bush the Lesser's reaction? The Secretary of Defense went on world wide TV while looters were robbing the Iraqi national museum and said "well, shit happens". This statement insulted and infuriated the entire Iraqi nation.

So, imagine that every day you come home to your wife nagging you because the electricity is off, the toilets won't flush, the phones don't work, you can't buy anything because ATMs don't work and credit card machines don't work, there aren't any stores open anyway. After a few weeks of having to listen to my wife bitch about that shit I would join al-Qaeda and I'm not even a Muslim.

Then, the people who caused this mess go on world wide TV and say "oops, too bad that your national treasures are being looted, shit happens". I'm surprised that the entire Iraqi population didn't rise up and fight us. I would have been absolutely livid.

The problem with Iraq now is that Iraq is not a viable country and no one has the will or the balls to admit that and let the four groups in Iraq each have their independence. One of the excuses used for ignoring this fact is that the "Iranians will take over". That is preposterous, Iraqis HATE Iran, that is the one thing that all Iraqis can agree on. Yes, Iraqis will accept support from Iran, they will accept guns, money, training, advisors, but they will NEVER accept rule from Iran. The Iraqis would give the Iranians a war they wouldn't believe. So, that excuse is ridiculous.

The only solution I see to Iraq now is to tell the entire Iraqi population that it is up to them to build a country that they can all live in, or separate into separate countries, but America is leaving and it is up to the Iraqis to take responsibility for their own future. it will probably devolve into a horrible mess, but that is the Iraqis fault.

If you can't say it in 2 paragraphs, it isn't worth reading.

[VegasPlayer]

the reason for the collapse in vegas has nothing to do with gambling. vegas economy was driven by construction, once the large corp. stopped building {way too late} the house of cards collasped as there was no real industry to support the over blown prices. tourism is down very little, the reason the rooms are empty is they built way too many. and the condo rentals are taking some business too, as they are taking anything they can get since so many are empty. the casino companies are losing $$ due to gross mis- management, same situation as the auto industry. not due to some sudden and huge decline in gambling hold.

Now there's an opinion I'll buy. This town is completely overbuilt with respect to the consumer. In addition, there was no master plan for the city/county (Most of the "Strip" and city is situated on county land). The infrastructure is terrible as anyone trying to navigate through the maze will tell you. The casinos decided to hose the tourists by making eating and sleeping "high end" and continue to tolerate surly employees.