Question for fellow card-counters

[Capybara]

I've seen two commonly used systems:

+1 for 3-6, -1 for 10, J, Q, K. (ignoring 2's and keeping separate count of A's)

and

+1 for 2-6, -1 for 10-A.

Which is more commonly used and which do you think is better??

[williams22]

I use the second as it is simpler which equals speed and accuracy. The benefits to be gained by using more complex systems become less and less the more complex they get. The indices for the simple Hi-Lo count (the second one) are the ones I learned first and remember best, so that's what I go with.

[Boner_18]

Williams, how organizationally do you count at a table. Do you offset +1's/-1's and then add to the running total? Do you pull every +1 and every -1 through the total, adjusting as you go? Do you get a count for each hand and add to total (i guess this is just repeating the first option here...).

[williams22]

Williams, how organizationally do you count at a table. Do you offset +1's/-1's and then add to the running total? Do you pull every +1 and every -1 through the total, adjusting as you go? Do you get a count for each hand and add to total (i guess this is just repeating the first option here...).

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. Do you mean how do I process the cards/hands? If that's what you are getting at, what I do is count in pairs. I let the deal finish and then count from first base to third base each hand of two cards as either -2, -1, 0, etc. When I first learned to count this is the way I was told to do it. I practice by dealing from a deck two cards at a time (flopping them) and seeing how fast I can go through the 26 pairs.

Is this what you were asking?

While there are many different counting systems and variations, the best one to use is the one you are most comfortable with as speed and accuracy are far more important than gaining another 0.02% advantage.

[Boner_18]

Yeah thats it. I have a counting program and its solo cards. I can run through a couple decks and get the count right but once I am at a table the way it is dealt messes me up and I end up not counting (get nervous am just there for fun anyhow etc.). I will try to deal out hands like at a table, see if that works.

[Capybara]

Thanks for your input, Guys. Good stuff, Williams -- I totally agree that the system you are most comfortable with is best. I originally learned the 3-6, 10-K method, but I much prefer the one you use. I can't keep a separate count of Aces, I can only do one thing! :-) And it's annoying ignoring 2's. Easy to remember to ignore 7-9.

How many decks do you usually play with? How do you factor in the "decks left in shoe"?

What's your history/ success rate like?

I'm headed to Mandalay on Thurs. I've counted there before, but I haven't mastered it yet and lose the count frequently. I've typically done a more "rough count", like Well, I saw a bunch of faces there and not too many little guys, so the deck is not favorable. Not ideal, but better than nothing. This year I want to do better. I think you're right about just practicing over and over.

[williams22]

Yeah thats it. I have a counting program and its solo cards. I can run through a couple decks and get the count right but once I am at a table the way it is dealt messes me up and I end up not counting (get nervous am just there for fun anyhow etc.). I will try to deal out hands like at a table, see if that works.

Don't deal to yourself, have someone else deal. I practiced by having someone deal me 4 hands at a time (plus the dealer's hand obviously) and counted while playing perfect basic strategy. While this may seem like a lot of effort, it's necessary because as you've witnessed, counting at a real table is much more difficult.

I'm assuming you know this, but playing a 2-deck game is always best if you can find one (and also allows you to get the count back quickly if you lose it).

Another thing you can do to practice is back-count tables by standing behind the players and keeping track from the start of the shoe. When you get a favorable count, sit for a few hands and try to keep count. If the count goes negative or you lose track, get up and move to a new table.

[williams22]

Thanks for your input, Guys. Good stuff, Williams -- I totally agree that the system you are most comfortable with is best. I originally learned the 3-6, 10-K method, but I much prefer the one you use. I can't keep a separate count of Aces, I can only do one thing! :-) And it's annoying ignoring 2's. Easy to remember to ignore 7-9.

How many decks do you usually play with? How do you factor in the "decks left in shoe"?

What's your history/ success rate like?

I'm headed to Mandalay on Thurs. I've counted there before, but I haven't mastered it yet and lose the count frequently. I've typically done a more "rough count", like Well, I saw a bunch of faces there and not too many little guys, so the deck is not favorable. Not ideal, but better than nothing. This year I want to do better. I think you're right about just practicing over and over.

I always calculate the "True Count", which is the count divided by the number of decks remaining. I always try to estimate to the nearest half-deck if possible. Obviously this takes practice as well as it can be tough to tell 4 decks from 5 when they are in a shoe. I generally bet 1x at TC of less than 1, 2x at 1, 4x at 2, 8x at 3. To be honest, I've never really gone past a 1-8 spread as going higher worries me with my bankroll plus the idea of betting more than 8x my base bet should be a clear tipoff to any dealer with half a brain.

I've had several people use the "rough count" phrase before, it's total BS. Either you know the count or you don't. If you don't, you shouldn't be doing anything more than flat-betting. Just because the last hand had a bunch of low cards doesn't guarantee you success on the next hand.

As for my history, I don't get to a casino often enough to have proven results yet as there aren't any around me really. Starting in August I will be in Vegas, so I'm making sure if fully practiced by then

[ryanjep]

practice always helps. good tips guys

[Capybara]

As for my history, I don't get to a casino often enough to have proven results yet as there aren't any around me really. Starting in August I will be in Vegas, so I'm making sure if fully practiced by then

Wow, that is surprising since you sound so well-practiced at it. Sounds like you've done it casinos at least a dozen times. Well, got an estimate?

Hey, important question: You said you count in pairs from first base to third... but how do you add/subtract from there? As each card is dealt? Or some other way? I thought I'd heard that it's best to count the completed hands as they complete, from first to third. And when do you add in the dealer's upcard?

[williams22]

Wow, that is surprising since you sound so well-practiced at it. Sounds like you've done it casinos at least a dozen times. Well, got an estimate?

Hey, important question: You said you count in pairs from first base to third... but how do you add/subtract from there? As each card is dealt? Or some other way? I thought I'd heard that it's best to count the completed hands as they complete, from first to third. And when do you add in the dealer's upcard?

I got into card counting after reading Bring Down the House when I was like 14. I started practicing and eventually went on to learn other counting systems as well as indices (deviations from basic strategy based on the count). I know my stuff, I just haven't had as many opportunities to put it into play as I had hoped. I've only had two casinos in driving distance for the past 4 years. One only uses 8-deck shoes and the other only has 1 2-deck game, and that's if you are lucky. I bet $10 as my base unit and go up to $80 a hand on high counts. I usually play 2 hands, both at about 60 hands/hour so it ends up being quite a lot of money bet. I'm up over $2000 in the last 6 visits. Again, when I move to Vegas soon I will be playing a LOT more and I'll be looking for others in the area who are interested.

You can count each hand as it's completed, I did that for a while. For whatever reason I found myself switching to the pairs technique after a while. Once I count the initial 2 cards for all players, I then count card by card as they are dealt, same with the dealer's down card.

[williams22]

Another thing to mention if you are actually serious about trying this, penetration is of utmost importance. "Penetration" refers to how many cards from the shoe are dealt before the cards are reshuffled. In a 6-deck shoe, 66% penetration means the cut card is place two decks from the end of the shoe. You typically want to find 80%, but this is tough in places I have played. The reason is that a high count becomes a much bigger advantage towards the end of a shoe. It's always a good idea to circle the tables and look at the penetration of the various tables before choosing where to play.

[konck]

The 2nd one is widely used its an easy make

[Cookie Monster]

I prefer the unbalanced counts. The KO is the easiest of them, and very good. The main advantage of unbalanced counts is not having to compute the true count.

[Extra Innings]

I never lose count when I'm wearing these boots

[Doug]

nice boots

[gambleballs]

Don't come to Vegas if you are looking for decent BJ games to play. Strip is 6:5 land on hand dealt games. Cutting off 2 decks off a 6 decker is common. If you are lucky enough to find a S17 DD game, it is watched like a hawk. The big chains share information FAST, so getting the boot from one means you will likely have heat at another related property.

Why subject yourself to mediocre games? If you are good enough to beat the game, you're good enough to find places with better playing conditions than Vegas.

[Sawyer]

Nice Boots