It sucks that some math guys have 4th grade level of football Xs and Os

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  • The Seer
    SBR Posting Legend
    • 10-29-07
    • 10641

    #1
    It sucks that some math guys have 4th grade level of football Xs and Os
    All of this stat crap supporting Belichicks decision is garbage and here's why: Nowhere do these account for the specific situation. First off, they call a time out which gives the defense time to have several adjustments ready in their minds for whatever formation the Pats got in. 2nd they were in an empty set (no running back for you math guys). With Brady being a zero run threat, this was an automatic full blown pass rush by the Sam and Mike backers as evidenced by them walked up in the A gaps. They had no run threat. This cuts down on your success % tremendously because you are telling the defense this IS 100% pass.

    The dbs play man because they know he has to get rid of it quick, no more than a 3 step drop. They can press and jump anything short. Also, the ball is on the right hash which practically eliminates the throw to the far X receiver on the left because of the length of the throw against man coverage and not having time against the blitz and shortens the field. You have your defenders covering the slots play with inside leverage preventing the inside release and giving the receiver only an outside release. Knowing this, he can undercut the throw to the outside. This is basically a sellout defense to stop a 2 yard pass. There were little throwing lanes as well. All 11 defenders were at the line of scrimmage. There wasn't even a deep safety.

    Now, all of these 4th down conversion rates are not taking into account situations where there was NO RUN THREAT which is UNBELIEVABLY HUGE. Brady's completion % is NOT 60 or 70 % in that situation anyway. Now, they did complete the pass which amazed me because the safety was a little too loose. Faulk was the only one that wasn't blanketed which Brady probably noticed from a pre-snap read.
    It was the fact that they gave the defense time to prepare and that they presented no run threat for which the defense would have to account for is what was so stupid. All of these 4th down and 2 stats aren't accounting for all of these variables. Most other situations have the defense having to play run/pass. The Colts had nothing to lose at that point so they could sell out against a short pass. You would have to compare it to 4th and goal from the 2 yardline with no time left with the offense in an empty set to find any comparable statistics.

    Now, let's also remember the Pats defense had forced 2 interceptions and a punt in the 2nd half alone not to mention the other 6 punts they forced in the first half. Those have to be added in the specific situational equation. The previous drive the Colts scored on was against a soft zone or basically a prevent defense which is another variable. Most pro QBs could drive it down the field then. If the Pats punt and get after Peyton and play regular D, there is no way that chance is even 50%. I've seen estimates that the Colts had a 70% chance of scoring a TD then. Having roughly 12 possesions per game, if Peyton scores TDs on 70% of drives the Colts would average over 60 points per game, get real.

    The fact is Bill outsmarted himself and got PUNKED by Peyton Manning. I think he is one of the greatest coaches in the league and one of the smartest as I have talked to him at a coaching clinic at the Un. of Alabama before but he made a dumb decision then, plain and simple.
  • Sam Odom
    SBR Aristocracy
    • 10-30-05
    • 58063

    #2
    Comment
    • pavyracer
      SBR Aristocracy
      • 04-12-07
      • 82900

      #3
      Mods please sticky this thread in the Think Tank.

      The Seer
      Comment
      • The Seer
        SBR Posting Legend
        • 10-29-07
        • 10641

        #4
        Originally posted by Sam Odom
        Sam, I could take the Browns defense in that exact situation and stop them more times than not. Football 101. 70 % my ass.
        Comment
        • poker_dummy101
          Restricted User
          • 11-03-08
          • 6395

          #5
          i need paragraphs

          edit: thanks much easier to follow now
          Comment
          • The Seer
            SBR Posting Legend
            • 10-29-07
            • 10641

            #6
            I just found this. It was amazing he even got the pass off with that sellout rush. Notice how all the receivers are blanketed. He got lucky to complete it. No way he could do that 7 out of 10 times against a defense prepared for a 2 yard pass with no run threat.

            Comment
            • CarpeDime
              SBR Hall of Famer
              • 09-01-09
              • 7873

              #7
              It sucks that some super hot guys like The Seer have 4th grade level of skills in the bedroom
              Comment
              • donjuan
                SBR MVP
                • 08-29-07
                • 3993

                #8
                You're criticizing his formation more than the actual decision to go for it.

                You still refuse to accept that the correct way to solve the question of whether to go for it or whether to punt by is using math.

                Your contention about stopping them over half the time is not supported by any actual evidence.

                While BB was definitely right to go for it, you are probably right that his formation/management of the situation was incorrect. But that doesn't change the fact that going for it in that situation with both teams having above average offenses (more so than the defenses are above league average) is absolutely correct and that the crucification of BB in the press has been beyond ridiculous.
                Comment
                • durito
                  SBR Posting Legend
                  • 07-03-06
                  • 13173

                  #9
                  How many $$$ do those "football X's and O's" make you every year gambling? This is a gambling forum after all.
                  Comment
                  • mmike032
                    SBR Hall of Famer
                    • 09-11-08
                    • 8905

                    #10
                    listen to Seer, he has been in the arena.
                    if ya havent been there, than you dont know
                    Comment
                    • MonkeyF0cker
                      SBR Posting Legend
                      • 06-12-07
                      • 12144

                      #11
                      Even if it's 50%, it's still the right call.
                      Comment
                      • 20Four7
                        SBR Hall of Famer
                        • 04-08-07
                        • 6703

                        #12
                        We can agree to disagree. BB made the correct decision. Now if you want to argue that his game plan was wrong that's a separate issue. If Brady bootlegged it and got to the same spot the same assumptions that his plan was wrong could be said.

                        What was being said was his "decision" was incorrect and he should have punted. That isn't the case.
                        Comment
                        • smitch124
                          SBR Posting Legend
                          • 05-19-08
                          • 12566

                          #13
                          Also what about the fact that NE had a short defensive line rotation and they were gassed and getting no pressure on Manning near the end of the game. BB knew he wasnt gonna stop them, didnt matter how many yards they needed to get.
                          Comment
                          • The Seer
                            SBR Posting Legend
                            • 10-29-07
                            • 10641

                            #14
                            Originally posted by donjuan
                            You're criticizing his formation more than the actual decision to go for it. You still refuse to accept that the correct way to solve the question of whether to go for it or whether to punt by is using math. Your contention about stopping them over half the time is not supported by any actual evidence. While BB was definitely right to go for it, you are probably right that his formation/management of the situation was incorrect. But that doesn't change the fact that going for it in that situation with both teams having above average offenses (more so than the defenses are above league average) is absolutely correct and that the crucification of BB in the press has been beyond ridiculous.
                            Don Juan, it did surprise me more how he went for it than that he did. He limited himself and made it favorable for the Colts. However, I still think if he punts and puts pressure on Manning he has a better chance of forcing him into a mistake or he turns it over on downs over a 70 yard or so drive.
                            Comment
                            • The Seer
                              SBR Posting Legend
                              • 10-29-07
                              • 10641

                              #15
                              Originally posted by durito
                              How many $$$ do those "football X's and O's" make you every year gambling? This is a gambling forum after all.
                              Durito, I don't cap like that. I follow the money mostly. RLMs and such and I pick flat spots such as Houston last week at C. Florida. I've done fine the last several years. I'm not knocking on what you do.
                              Comment
                              • The Seer
                                SBR Posting Legend
                                • 10-29-07
                                • 10641

                                #16
                                Originally posted by 20Four7
                                We can agree to disagree. BB made the correct decision. Now if you want to argue that his game plan was wrong that's a separate issue. If Brady bootlegged it and got to the same spot the same assumptions that his plan was wrong could be said. What was being said was his "decision" was incorrect and he should have punted. That isn't the case.
                                Yes, we can agree to disagree. I still think if he goes back to his original defensive game plan then he has a better chance of stopping him than he does to go for it.
                                Comment
                                • durito
                                  SBR Posting Legend
                                  • 07-03-06
                                  • 13173

                                  #17
                                  Well, I perhaps got a bit ahead of myself.

                                  Nevertheless, my guess would be that BB understands X's and O's at a level substantially higher than any of us, thus from my perspective I assume he knows what he is doing from that perspective. So I look at what I do know, the probabilities, and those generally suggest he was right. I doubt I'd have gone for it though if I was coach.
                                  Comment
                                  • The Seer
                                    SBR Posting Legend
                                    • 10-29-07
                                    • 10641

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by CarpeDime
                                    It sucks that some super hot guys like The Seer have 4th grade level of skills in the bedroom
                                    My girl's not complaining. She must be on a 3rd grade level.
                                    Comment
                                    • aggieshawn
                                      SBR MVP
                                      • 01-24-07
                                      • 4378

                                      #19
                                      defence for 28 yards still could stop manning
                                      Comment
                                      • The Seer
                                        SBR Posting Legend
                                        • 10-29-07
                                        • 10641

                                        #20
                                        Durito, the guy is as close to a genius as a defensive coach can be. I've met the man. His book Education of a Coach let's you see why. He was groomed since he was a small child. He broke down film as a kid with his father who was one of the greatest scouts ever for Navy.
                                        However, he draws the ugliest Xs and Os I've ever seen. Here's a pic I took with my phone 2 years ago.
                                        Attached Files
                                        Comment
                                        • donjuan
                                          SBR MVP
                                          • 08-29-07
                                          • 3993

                                          #21
                                          Don Juan, it did surprise me more how he went for it than that he did. He limited himself and made it favorable for the Colts. However, I still think if he punts and puts pressure on Manning he has a better chance of forcing him into a mistake or he turns it over on downs over a 70 yard or so drive.
                                          There is no doubt it is harder to score on a 70 yard drive than on a 30 yard drive. But when you combine the chance of getting the first down with the chance of stopping the Colts on a 30 yard drive, it is higher than the chance of simply stopping the Colts on a 70 yard drive.
                                          Comment
                                          • The Seer
                                            SBR Posting Legend
                                            • 10-29-07
                                            • 10641

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by donjuan
                                            There is no doubt it is harder to score on a 70 yard drive than on a 30 yard drive. But when you combine the chance of getting the first down with the chance of stopping the Colts on a 30 yard drive, it is higher than the chance of simply stopping the Colts on a 70 yard drive.
                                            Believe it or not, I understand where you're coming from but I'm saying they had stopped him 9 out of 13 times previous in this particular game on top of a dumb play call.
                                            Comment
                                            • pavyracer
                                              SBR Aristocracy
                                              • 04-12-07
                                              • 82900

                                              #23
                                              The earth is flat and the sun orbits the earth guys. Quit arguing with math geeks.
                                              Comment
                                              • mathdotcom
                                                SBR Posting Legend
                                                • 03-24-08
                                                • 11689

                                                #24


                                                Might want to read it before saying what he does and doesn't do.
                                                Comment
                                                • Indecent
                                                  SBR Wise Guy
                                                  • 09-08-09
                                                  • 758

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by pavyracer
                                                  The earth is flat and the sun orbits the earth guys. Quit arguing with math geeks.
                                                  Your logic sucks... in both of those cases, the dissenters were RIGHT. In your example, math people would be the ones claiming the earth is round and the earth orbits the sun, where you are among the people clinging to archaic thinking styles.
                                                  Comment
                                                  • pavyracer
                                                    SBR Aristocracy
                                                    • 04-12-07
                                                    • 82900

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Indecent
                                                    Your logic sucks... in both of those cases, the dissenters were RIGHT. In your example, math people would be the ones claiming the earth is round and the earth orbits the sun, where you are among the people clinging to archaic thinking styles.
                                                    Your dick smells donkey shit because your logic is equivalent to donkey sodomizing.
                                                    Comment
                                                    • Indecent
                                                      SBR Wise Guy
                                                      • 09-08-09
                                                      • 758

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by pavyracer
                                                      Your dick smells donkey shit because your logic is equivalent to donkey sodomizing.
                                                      Mmmmmm.... donkey sodomy.

                                                      No, but seriously, if you want to provide stupid insight make sure you put more than two seconds of thought into it. If your example makes no sense and you cant back it up, wtf would you post it? Troll?
                                                      Comment
                                                      • pavyracer
                                                        SBR Aristocracy
                                                        • 04-12-07
                                                        • 82900

                                                        #28
                                                        I think we have already established it after 2 days of vigorous arguing. People who know, coach or play football believe it was the wrong decision. People who never played sports and are nerds sitting behind a computer analyzing meaningless stats say it was the right decision.
                                                        Comment
                                                        • daggerkobe
                                                          SBR Posting Legend
                                                          • 03-25-08
                                                          • 10744

                                                          #29
                                                          Good points.

                                                          How many of the past 4th down conversions were inside their own 30 with the game on the line? I can only recall one..... Barry Switzer going for it on 4th down on their own 29. They didnt make it either and lost the game.

                                                          Another infamous 4th & 2 was Pete Carroll going for it instead of punting with the National Championship on the line. He didnt make it either. Gave Vince Young a short field and the rest is history.

                                                          The trouble with these stats is that they dont take into account scores, field position, risk/reward. Of course if you're behind late in the game facing 4th down you hqve to go for it. But going for it when you dont have to is stupid. You force the other team to win it not your own team when you dont have to.

                                                          Each week there's several games where if a team converted a 4th down conversion they could kneel down to end the game. But no coach is dumb enough or arrogant enough to try it, especially inside their own 30.
                                                          Comment
                                                          • Indecent
                                                            SBR Wise Guy
                                                            • 09-08-09
                                                            • 758

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by pavyracer
                                                            I think we have already established it after 2 days of vigorous arguing. People who know, coach or play football believe it was the wrong decision. People who never played sports and are nerds sitting behind a computer analyzing meaningless stats say it was the right decision.
                                                            By your own admission, you believe but have no proof.

                                                            Why was it the right decision? Is it because the math is irrelevant? Or the risk overrides the any advantage the math shows?

                                                            All us no-playing nerds are anxiously waiting behind our computer for you great and wise sports experts to answer.
                                                            Comment
                                                            • pavyracer
                                                              SBR Aristocracy
                                                              • 04-12-07
                                                              • 82900

                                                              #31
                                                              It's the wrong decision because he cost his team the game. And if you don't understand The Seer's lengthy analysis of the sequence of events that preceded that decision as well as the small percentages of completing the play based on the fact they pretty much telegraphed to the Colts what the play was going to be and the Colts just sat there and waited for the ball to be thrown.
                                                              Comment
                                                              • tacomax
                                                                SBR Hall of Famer
                                                                • 08-10-05
                                                                • 9619

                                                                #32
                                                                Pavy, you really are making yourself look dumb here. You've flipped to one argument and then flopped to another. And now you've reduced yourself to "if it lost the game, it was a bad decision". What if I had Patriots on the ML at +1250 - was that a bad bet because it lost?
                                                                Originally posted by pags11
                                                                SBR would never get rid of me...ever...
                                                                Originally posted by BuddyBear
                                                                I'd probably most likely chose Pags to jack off too.
                                                                Originally posted by curious
                                                                taco is not a troll, he is a bubonic plague bacteria.
                                                                Comment
                                                                • Indecent
                                                                  SBR Wise Guy
                                                                  • 09-08-09
                                                                  • 758

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by pavyracer
                                                                  It's the wrong decision because he cost his team the game.
                                                                  Wrong. You can't use results oriented analysis on stuff like this, it just doesn't work. I won't claim to know whether he was right to a certainty, but it has nothing to do who won.

                                                                  Originally posted by pavyracer
                                                                  And if you don't understand The Seer's lengthy analysis of the sequence of events that preceded that decision as well as the small percentages of completing the play based on the fact they pretty much telegraphed to the Colts what the play was going to be and the Colts just sat there and waited for the ball to be thrown.
                                                                  I didn't disagree with him. I appreciated his analysis into how the other side thinks, it was the most in depth explanation I've seen of your side presented yet.

                                                                  I was mostly waiting for you to make your previous point because a lot of people are saying Bellicheat is wrong because they lost and it makes your side lose credibility.
                                                                  Comment
                                                                  • keyboarding
                                                                    SBR Hall of Famer
                                                                    • 07-30-09
                                                                    • 6817

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by The Seer
                                                                    My girl's not complaining. She must be on a 3rd grade level.
                                                                    Does that mean you're banging someone mentally retarded?
                                                                    Comment
                                                                    • Mudcat
                                                                      Restricted User
                                                                      • 07-21-05
                                                                      • 9287

                                                                      #35
                                                                      I agree with Seer and I am more of a math guy than a football guy. The math I have seen supporting Belichek's decision is poor and doesn't factor in some really obvious variables, some of which Seer has pointed out.

                                                                      Understanding variables is essential to good math.
                                                                      Comment
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