When an agent stiffs a player

[Justin7]

Should the book pay the player?

I have a case I'm reviewing now. A book had credit and post-up. The player plays on credit, wins, and wants to get paid. Agent stiffs the player.

Thoughts?

[pavyracer]

What's an agent? Like Scott Boras?

[tomcowley]

Yes, 100%. How is this different from a payment processor stealing or going bust or getting funds seized?

If it's just a pph shop where the book never actually takes any action, and just sets lines, then it's a different story, but I assume that isn't the case here.

[Matt Rain]

Book breaks the agent's legs. Player gets a free kick in the agent's nuts. Case closed.

(I think the book needs to cut off the agent until the player is paid.)

[themajormt]

Yes they should because if the player stiffed the agent I am sure the book would hold the agent liable correct?

Unless this is one of those $50 a month sites where all they do is move lines like TC above me said?

[mathdotcom]

Yes, and then the book should go after Raiders.

[mtneer1212]

If an employee of Wal-mart hits a customer with a 2x4, the customer sues Wal-mart, not the employee. An agent is a representative of the book. If an agent stiffs a player, then the book has not paid the player. The reverse is also true -- if a player stiffs an agent, the book comes after him, not the agent.

[Frank]

Since its not a straight credit shop, I say no.

If a book has post-up and also PPH services, they should not be responsible for bad agent using their software.

[SSLP]

Its a complicated situation .

Not all books are obligated to do this , this is why in my opinion PPH sites should give agents whitelabels.

BUT if the book has post up the agent is representing the book , so therefore the book should pay .

[Dark Horse]

Which book? Or at least what's their rating?

And is the book taking a position in the dispute?

[rjohnny]

No. An agent is more or less a bookie paying for a site's software.

[Justin7]

Which book? Or at least what's their rating?

And is the book taking a position in the dispute?

I'm still gathering facts. The book is in the mid-range (C). I typically don't disclose disputes that were fairly resolved.

[Bluehorseshoe]

It's not the books problem.


When you deal with an agent, you're dealing with him. If a player stiffs, the agent is responsible the other way. That's why he makes the money he does.

[nosniboR11]

yes

[The General]

I would not bring the book into it if it were me getting the shaft from the agent.

[themajormt]

Did the book refer the player to the agent? If so they are endorsing and vouching for the guy and should be responsible. If the player found him on his own then that is COMPLETELY different...

[jjgold]

Agent responsible

This aint legal shit so regular rules do not apply

[themajormt]

Good point JJ...

[raydog]

it is the agents responsibility, but you can bet your ass i would let the book know they have an agent who is stiffing clients and giving the book a bad name.

[Dark Horse]

If the agent is independent, and only using the book's software, then the book is not responsible towards the player. The agent should be cut off.

But the book is now on record, so if it happens again then it has a problem selecting agents and that does carry over to the book.

Also, if the book decides to keep the agent, then it does take on financial responsibility -in this dispute- by endorsing his behavior.

[Frank]

If the agent is independent, and only using the book's software, then the book is not responsible towards the player. The agent should be cut off.

But the book is now on record, so if it happens again then it has a problem selecting agents and that does carry over to the book.

Also, if the book decides to keep the agent, then it does take on financial responsibility -in this dispute- by endorsing his behavior.

If its a PPH, the book doesnt select agents. Any schmo can pay the monthly fee to use the software.

[Dark Horse]

That's why the book's reaction to the agent is important.

[Scooter]

Did the book pay this specific money to the agent already, and then the agent stiffed?

Settlement between book and agent will normally be the same as settlement between agent and player - there will be a carry figure (payment one way or the other not made until X amount is reached).

If the book and the agent have a falling out before the agent is paid for that player's winnings, then (of course) the book still owes the money to the player and should pay him directly.

Also, perhaps the carry figure was positive the book's way - i.e., the agent owes the book money from a previous week or weeks, but it hadn't yet reached the settle figure. Then the agent stiffs the players he owes.
Again, in this case the book is still holding the money the player won during the previous week, and should pay the player directly.

Unfortunately, it's probably not that easy.

If the player stiffs the agent, it's the agent's responsibility to pay the book.
That's because the agent has accepted ultimate responsibility to pay the book for anyone he brings in as a player.

Shouldn't it work the other way?
The book has made the agent a representative of their company.
Wouldn't they have responsibility if the their rep stiffs?

It seems to me that the system falls apart if responsibility is not 2 way - the agent is responsible ultimately to the book for any money owed, and the book should be responsible ultimately to the player to see that he is paid.
The book selected and approved the agent to work on their behalf. How can they not take responsibility if the person they selected and approved stiffs?

Suppose the book's accountant embezzles money one week and disappears. Can the book now tell the players that they are not responsible to pay the players that week?

[Fishhead]

I agree with JJ and THE GENERAL in what they have posted here.

FH

[JELLYBEAN]

Is he an agent of the book OR a pay per head agent. The answer lies right there.

[Bill Dozer]

If the player settles with an agent, it is between the two of them. In that case he is the bookie. He is the one who handles the accounting and transfers, not the sportsbook. If the sportsbook/website closes, the agent/bookie still owes the player all the money.

Otherwise, you would have sportsbooks essentially offering credit based on a recommendation and assuming all risk while paying a big % to the agent. That wouldn't make sense.

If a postup sportsbook is going to offer credit, they would be smart not to use the same brand name.

In some cases the agent's book will pay the players the % of what the agent should have passed along and/or keep the player business directly until the agent makes good.

[tomcowley]

How is an agent different from a payment processor, as far as the player is concerned? It's just a payment processor who offers credit- if the player defaults, the agent is stuck because he shouldn't have offered credit to a stiff. If the agent runs off without paying the player, it's the same as a processor stealing funds- the book is still responsible, since they're the ultimate source of funds. The incentives you describe are all backwards- the book suffers no harm if the player stiffs, since the agent is still responsible.. but they want no responsibility for their payment processor stiffing a player. The book gives an agent the power to do business in its name, and expects risk-free profit and no responsibility when the agent goes bad, and unless it's a pph shop where they aren't booking any action, sorry, that doesn't make any sense.

[JELLYBEAN]

Like I said in my other post and it is real simple. IS IT AN AGENT OF THE BOOK OR A PAY PER HEAD BOOKIE. Bill dozer is a naive young man. He has no clue how this business works in the real world. Post up and credit are two very different animals. Real books make there money on the credit end. If the sheet is there's and the agent dies or disappears, a old timer will make good. These days there are alot of wanna bookmakers who use the pay per head sites to take shots. If you are playing thru a website that is a well know book, you should just call the book in question and ask to be paid. If your on an offshoot site that is used for pay per head then your as good as the guy booking it, which is most likely the agent who pretends there are other guys involved.

[Justin7]

For sake of argument, I was discussing an agent of the book, not a "pay per head".

[flyingillini]

Justin7, when are you going to appear on another ESPN show?

[Scooter]

How is an agent different from a payment processor, as far as the player is concerned? It's just a payment processor who offers credit- if the player defaults, the agent is stuck because he shouldn't have offered credit to a stiff. If the agent runs off without paying the player, it's the same as a processor stealing funds- the book is still responsible, since they're the ultimate source of funds. The incentives you describe are all backwards- the book suffers no harm if the player stiffs, since the agent is still responsible.. but they want no responsibility for their payment processor stiffing a player. The book gives an agent the power to do business in its name, and expects risk-free profit and no responsibility when the agent goes bad, and unless it's a pph shop where they aren't booking any action, sorry, that doesn't make any sense.

This.


The agent is a representative or emissary of the book.

There is not an open offer for agents posted on telephone poles - the sportsbook chose a specific person to represent them.

How can the book not take any responsiblity for their agent - i.e., representative, the person who is doing business on their behalf and in their name - if the agent disappears/dies/stiffs?



Bill Dozer - "Otherwise, you would have sportsbooks essentially offering credit based on a recommendation and assuming all risk while paying a big % to the agent. That wouldn't make sense."

Your post portrays the agent as being similar to a mortgage broker, who then goes to the bank (sportsbook) and tries to arrange credit for their client (player).
This is not accurate.

The sportsbook is essentially offering credit to their agent, knowing that the agent will then award pieces of that credit to his clients/players.
The agent awards credit to the player on his own - he doesn't contact the sportsbook and negotiate a credit limit for the player.
The sportsbook made the choice to award credit to their agent, who is a person known to them.
The agent takes the risk of assigning pieces of his sportsbook credit limit to his players.
He is rewarded for this risk by, as you stated, being paid a (big ?) % by the sportsbook.

[Frank]

For sake of argument, I was discussing an agent of the book, not a "pay per head".

Now that you said it is the book's agent, I am surprised the book doesn't take care of the player and deal with the agent themselves.

Jellybean is correct in what he says.

Credit shops live and thrive by their word and integrity. One person gets the runaround and word spreads and your business could be in the shithouse.

Unlike in postup shops, where most forum guys think its allright to wait for weeks for your cash. That don't fly in the streets.

[Dark Horse]

The incentives you describe are all backwards- the book suffers no harm if the player stiffs, since the agent is still responsible.. but they want no responsibility for their payment processor stiffing a player. The book gives an agent the power to do business in its name, and expects risk-free profit and no responsibility when the agent goes bad, and unless it's a pph shop where they aren't booking any action, sorry, that doesn't make any sense.

It may not make sense, but it is the way a lot of businesses operate. Independent contractors can drive the company limousine, but are often not insured by the company. If they get in an accident, they pay. If they get stiffed, they still have to pay the company. Why would they agree to such a stupid agreement? Because there are ten people waiting behind them to take the same job.

I'd be surprised if agents wouldn't have to sign something upfront, that covers the book. But if nothing was signed, then why would the book be covered? Just out of assumption?

This type of risk is such an obvious part of the business, that the bases can easily be covered upfront. In writing. But maybe that's out of the window when things are considered illegal. lol Another reason to legalize gambling.

If it does boil down to being illegal, then offshore betting and betting in the streets of America are two different animals. SBR can't expect to impose a code of legality in the alleys and backstreets of this country. That would be overreaching. Better stick to cyberspace, where you have leverage. Did anybody put a gun to somebody's head to bet with an agent? Not SBR's problem...

[Karla]

If the player was referred by the book to its Agent, then, the book is somewhat responsible. If not, then, it should be between the palayer and the agent, cannot run after the book.

This is the reason why it is risky to use an agent coa they can always run away with the money.

[tomcowley]

If the book can profit from a wager losing, it's responsible for paying if it wins. If the agent steals the money along the way, oops, should have used a better payment processor. That doesn't absolve them of any responsibility.