Government gonna go after Pinnacle?

[Newguyintown]

I heard something very disturbing.

I heard that Pinny is on top of the US Gov list (right behind Bodog) and the US was going to get aggressive in the next few months to take it down. This from a source who has an "inside" source. Probably total bs but you never know.


N G

[tacomax]

They are no doubt towards the top of the US list (and there must be no doubt that Bodog is at the top) but can they actually do anything about it assuming that the respective companies have got their act together?

[bigboydan]

I call it B.S.

The new laws don't go into effect till July, so I highly doubt they will bust them in the next few months.

As Taco mentioned above however. You know any book that still takes U.S. players will be a target, weather it be Pinnacle, Bodog, TheGreek,or even WSEX.

My advise to all books is to set up business in a place that doesn't allow U.S. extradition.

[thezbar]

If the US Gov is going to do something it would seem to me that they would time it around the super bowl.So that part makes sense. I wouldn't be to surprised if a number of books just disappear within that time frame also. I hope this doesn't happen>however at this point I would bet it does

[acw]

They are not naive!

[pags11]

agree with taco's comments here...

[Korchnoi]

If the US Gov is going to do something it would seem to me that they would time it around the super bowl.So that part makes sense. I wouldn't be to surprised if a number of books just disappear within that time frame also. I hope this doesn't happen>however at this point I would bet it does

I actually think that they wouldn't want to do anything around the Super Bowl cause that's when every tom, dick, and harry places a bet on the big game. If they made a point to crack down right then, I think they'd lack public support.

Imagine announcing prohibition on new year's eve?!

[jjgold]

I think next year the US gov't will go after the big boys. I still think by next football season it is not going to be easy to find a reputable book to make a bet with. I hope I am wrong but I have a bad feeling once this bill becomes law.

[JoshW]

The might be a target, but Pinnacles operation leaves them fairly protected even if is a US indictment.

[Sam Odom]

Ngit = Jj ??

[vanzack]

Mr

Anyone care to share what Pinnacle could possibly be "targeted" for??????

Look. Once again, the misperception that the USA makes laws for the world is absurd.

Pinnacle is a legal company in a sovereign nation. UNLESS THEY HAVE US CITIZENS OR US FINANCIAL INTERESTS THERE IS NOTHING THE USA CAN DO.

While the USA would love to police the world, our laws do not apply to legal businesses in other countries.

This rumor is just that, a rumor.

[vanzack]

I think next year the US gov't will go after the big boys. I still think by next football season it is not going to be easy to find a reputable book to make a bet with. I hope I am wrong but I have a bad feeling once this bill becomes law.

This is total nonsense.

Does the USA go after pot bars in Amsterdam?

Every arrest so far has been because there were Americans involved, the company had American financial interests, or the company was doing business on US soil.

You guys need to look up the word jurisdiction and understand what it means and how it applies to US law.

[RageWizard]

i agree with you vanzack. have you ever seen where Pinnacle is located? Netherland Antilles is an island about as big as Manhattan. They don't have much more industry other than servicing the world for their sports investing needs. Also the world trade agreement signed by both the US and all of the contries in the Caribean explicitly allows for this type of business to be conducted, thats why several of these countries are trying to go after the US for free trade reasons. The land of the free, however told you that is your enemy.

[jjgold]

Vanzer the US gov't is going to crush any American entity that lets money go offshore for gambling and I mean crush them with long prison terms. So once you crush the flow of money you crush the books ability to operate.

Any bank even letting money go to third party transfer ststems will be watched closely.

[vanzack]

Vanzer the US gov't is going to crush any American entity that lets money go offshore for gambling and I mean crush them with long prison terms. So once you crush the flow of money you crush the books ability to operate.

Any bank even letting money go to third party transfer ststems will be watched closely.

Thats a great story but fiction.

"Crush them with long prison terms"???? Where do you get this stuff? Been watching too much CSI?

The problem is that when you write a check there is no way to tell if it goes to your grandmother, your grocery, or a sportsbook. To say that banks will be able to somehow stop the flow of money to sportsbooks is naive. Fedex and a cahiers check is and always will be unstoppable.

Do you really think that the Govt is going to spend tons of money of their own, and force the banking system to somehow revolutionize the way they do banking in order to stop money going overseas? Do you realize how little of a percentage of total banking transactions is gambling related? Do you really think some banker is going to get "crushed with a long prison term" because he let neteller transactions go through? Its laughable. My friendly bank manager is going to Rikers because he didnt police the 20K accounts to make sure a neteller didnt squeak through.

Like I said, total fiction.

[Aces]

Vanzer the US gov't is going to crush any American entity that lets money go offshore for gambling and I mean crush them with long prison terms. So once you crush the flow of money you crush the books ability to operate.

Any bank even letting money go to third party transfer ststems will be watched closely.

JJ i never thought I would say this but you are 100% right. When the Feds eliminate the funding sources Neteller Western Union BankWire etc etc they eliminate US Players ability to play. Thats why the books are starting to create funding sources ex. Cris Credit Card. I think you will see more and more funding sources come out over the next year. The problem wont be finding a quality book the problem will be getting your money to this book. I guess you could always drop a money order or cashiers check in the mail but they will make it tough on the recreational player. The whales will simply open an off-shore account out of the reach of the US government. Since I'm not a whale I guess I'll send a Cashiers Check.

[vanzack]

Saying Pinnacle is going to be taken down by the US govt is the same as France passing a law that selling non-organic produce is illegal. If you sell anything that is not organic you go to French jail for 10 years.

Now the French govt comes to the US government and wants to extradite Mr Albertson, Mr Publix, and Mr Kroger all back to Paris to stand trial because they sell non-organic peaches. Its totally ridiculous.

You have to understand something. THE USA IS THE ANOMOLY WHEN IT COMES TO GAMBLING LAWS IN THE WORLD. We are not the rule. Most of the world recognizes, licenses, and regulates the gambling industry just like the grocery industry. They are protected one and the same.

So to say that gambling in Curacao is somehow illegal because the USA says it is is absurd.

[vanzack]

JJ i never thought I would say this but you are 100% right. When the Feds eliminate the funding sources Neteller Western Union BankWire etc etc they eliminate US Players ability to play. Thats why the books are starting to create funding sources ex. Cris Credit Card. I think you will see more and more funding sources come out over the next year. The problem wont be finding a quality book the problem will be getting your money to this book. I guess you could always drop a money order or cashiers check in the mail but they will make it tough on the recreational player. The whales will simply open an off-shore account out of the reach of the US government. Since I'm not a whale I guess I'll send a Cashiers Check.

Dude - when you, JJ, or anyone else can explain how they will stop Neteller, EFT's, Bank Wires, or ** - I will listen. You are making assumptions in an imaginary universe. They dont have the technology to do this. It would be great if cancer was cured tomorrow but they cant do it, just as the US would like to stop these types of transactions but they cant do it.

[Aces]

You need to read up on Netellers opinion on this. It looks like they will Comply. When the bill becomes law you can kiss Neteller Bye Bye. Other funding sources have already eliminated US customers this isn't imaginary its reality and its already here DUDE.

[Aces]

As far as Western Union real easy the Governments already doing it books are putting a limit on the amount of western unions accepted in a day. Also Western Union a US based company isnt going to buck the system. Whatever Bank your dealing with certainly isnt going to go head to head with the Feds so that you can send funds out of the country.

[vanzack]

You need to read up on Netellers opinion on this. It looks like they will Comply. When the bill becomes law you can kiss Neteller Bye Bye. Other funding sources have already eliminated US customers this isn't imaginary its reality and its already here DUDE.

LOL.

The bill IS LAW.

I have not only read netellers stance but had a conference call with their compliance department. They have not, ever, issued anything saying that they were going to leave the US market. Pure speculation on your part. They might, but they might not.

It is up to the funding source to determine if they will comply. They are not legally bound to do so unless they have US employees, US financial interests, or operate on US soil. If the CHOOSE to do so that is their perogative.

DUDE.

[Dark Horse]

The World Trade Organization is on the side of the books. If the US violates the WTO with regards to Antigua that would allow Antigua to do the same towards the US. Antigua could simply ignore intellectual property law and start pumping out Microsoft software.

In any case, personally I think the worst is behind us. This law was an obvious election stunt. The hardliners have been slapped very hard in the elections, and the political wind is changing. The arrests were all made before the election, if I remember correctly.

[vanzack]

As far as Western Union real easy the Governments already doing it books are putting a limit on the amount of western unions accepted in a day. Also Western Union a US based company isnt going to buck the system. Whatever Bank your dealing with certainly isnt going to go head to head with the Feds so that you can send funds out of the country.

Aces - I dont understand your point. If you are saying Neteller and ** might go away, I cant argue that. That is a far leap from saying that US banks will somehow be able to comply by policing all bank transactions.

If neteller CHOOSES to leave the US market, "neteller2" will pop up. Same purpose, different name. When you or anyone else can give me details as to the technology and systems banks will use to police this Im all ears.

But the point of this thread is that Pinnacle is somehow going to be "gone after" by the US govt and has now gotten in to the US banking system and neteller. Pinnacle is as legal as your corner supermarket.

[Aces]

Even if Neteller stays which they will not how will you move your funds to them. Western Union ? Dont you think the government will be interested in why you send and receive funds from this obvious third party. Your bank account suspisious activity will throw up a flag that will create mega problems for you. Credit Card no most credit card companys have already ceased allowing transactions to wagering sites. I bet you didnt think they could do that either did you. Why do you think Books are creating their own funding methods in house ? Have you used ******* Lately ?

[Aces]

No doubt in my mind Pinnacle will be here. No doubt I will play there. In my opinion and as you said it is my opinion. Funding the account will be a little tougher next year.

[vanzack]

Even if Neteller stays which they will not how will you move your funds to them. Western Union ? Dont you think the government will be interested in why you send and receive funds from this obvious third party. Your bank account suspisious activity will throw up a flag that will create mega problems for you. Credit Card no most credit card companys have already ceased allowing transactions to wagering sites. I bet you didnt think they could do that either did you. Why do you think Books are creating their own funding methods in house ? Have you used ******* Lately ?

Aces - the law has nothing to do with you and me. In fact, we are specifically exempt from it.

So what kind of "mega problems" are you and I going to have? We are gambling (legal) and we are not breaking any laws.

I did think CC's could stop it at any time. There is a code assigned to every CC merchant, and if you have a 4475 code you are gambling related. The difference between CC's and the international banking system is twofold:

1. Transactions are coded with CC's and they are not in banking
2. There is a worldwide governing body (**** **) with CC's and not with banks.

******* CHOSE to get out of US business. Their choice.

There are clear differences and individual reasons for all of these decisions and moves - and your broad brush approach comes from a simple lack of understanding.

[Aces]

Aces - the law has nothing to do with you and me. In fact, we are specifically exempt from it.

True as long as your reporting it on your taxes which most players do not. I play a couple times a week in the casinos 100% legal but if I fail to file a W-2G then I have created a problem. Same situation here if you are recreational your fine but if you move large amounts of capital without reporting it BIG RED FLAG.

1. I dont think Neteller will be available to US Clients, You do.
2. We both think Pinnacle will be here next year.

So the only real issue is will Neteller be here 6 months from now ?
Which as you stated isnt even the subject of this thread.
I guess we need to check back in 6 months to see who was correct.

[vanzack]

True as long as your reporting it on your taxes which most players do not. I play a couple times a week in the casinos 100% legal but if I fail to file a W-2G then I have created a problem. Same situation here if you are recreational your fine but if you move large amounts of capital without reporting it BIG RED FLAG.

1. I dont think Neteller will be available to US Clients, You do.
2. We both think Pinnacle will be here next year.

So the only real issue is will Neteller be here 6 months from now ?
Which as you stated isnt even the subject of this thread.
I guess we need to check back in 6 months to see who was correct.

I was never suggesting for anyone to not pay their taxes. In fact I was assuming that everyone pays their taxes.

And to correct you I DO NOT HAVE AN OPINION ON WHETHER NETELLER WILL BE HERE IN 6 MONTHS. I am taking a factual approach and not a subjective one. We have no evidence either way. Dont misunderstand. I never said what you are saying I did.

BTW - nobody "files a W-2G". A W2G is what you would receive if you won a large amount on a slot machine or a parimutuel contest, and is not what YOU file. You file income on your 1040. No additional form is necessary.

[LGBoots]

Is there a chance this whole US Gambling crackdown might just 'die a death'

After the Whacking the Republicans took in the Mid Term Elections surely they have got bigger problems to worry about then Offshore gambling?

Or am I just being naive

[vanzack]

Is there a chance this whole US Gambling crackdown might just 'die a death'

After the Whacking the Republicans took in the Mid Term Elections surely they have got bigger problems to worry about then Offshore gambling?

Or am I just being naive

Absolutely.

There is a chance that the bill will not even be put in to practice. Dont forget, the US subcomittee has to come up with practices and procedures within 270 days of Oct 13 to enforce this. They might not even take the time to do this. It all may just fade away.

The bill was largely political and they might just cut their losses and abandon a sinking ship. This is exactly why neteller is being noncomittal about their stance, a rush to judgement like ******* can only harm them.

[Aces]

I was never suggesting for anyone to not pay their taxes. In fact I was assuming that everyone pays their taxes.

Ok... keep assuming that. Be assured that if its not on a W2-G most dont. I filed 3 but I also filed loses equaling winnings now as far as sports wagering you should file that on 1040 line 21 which I assume everyone does.

[SBR_John]

One never knows who may or may not be a target. But as laker said, they can target even prosecute all they want, Pinnacle isn't going anywhere.

The US found a weakness with the public companies probably more by mere accident. They wanted the thugs at BOS.

I think the next target will be a BOS type. A thug run operation known for sleazy marketing and ripping off players. A book like BetUS would be a heavy chalk favorite to be next in my opinion.

[pags11]

it's good having vanzack around...

[Aces]

Vanzack whats your take now ??? I guess we're all a bunch of dumb asses.

Dude

[BuddyBear]

Basically everything Vanzack has said on this forum and on others has compltely gone the other way. No matter how professional or sincere his comments were...the fact remains...every single thing he said basically turned out to be wrong.