Steroids and HOF

[Chi_archie]

so, wait...


now we are arguing about if Biggio took roids? I thought we were talking about the HOF????

ok fine, I mean we can stop talking about biggio and the HOF if it hurts your feelings to be wrong...but let's move onto Ichiro... heck we have a whole thread for that...

are you gonna bring the Steroid trump card into that argument too when it looks like you'll lose?

[fiveteamer]

Ty Cobb hit .357 in his 23rd season.

[seaborneq]

Ty Cobb hit .357 in his 23rd season.

The racist Cobb was hanging people for an upper late in his career. That was his roids, plus he needed a second job also.

[seaborneq]

so, wait...


now we are arguing about if Biggio took roids? I thought we were talking about the HOF????

ok fine, I mean we can stop talking about biggio and the HOF if it hurts your feelings to be wrong...but let's move onto Ichiro... heck we have a whole thread for that...

are you gonna bring the Steroid trump card into that argument too when it looks like you'll lose?

Still don't believe he is a Hallie, plus he now suffers from the same stain as the rest of the cheats. Better past his prime than in his prime.

[Chi_archie]

lol, well you aren't gonna change your opinion and that's fine...that's one of the great things about sports, being able to argue about them....

I would challenge the notion that he was better after his prime years, he wasn't....he was best in the mid-late 90's by far a top 20 player in all of MLB back then, and maybe better..... he may have hit more homers later in his career....but we aren't talking Brady Anderson here... he hit like 3-6 more in 2 years....

that could be alot more then just steroids..... say was it harder or easier for a right-hander to hit home runs in the astrodome or minutemaid or whatever they call it?????

[Chi_archie]

I guess you concede the Ichiro argument to me then....

so if we count your steroid cop out with biggio.... let's call it 1-1... we need a tiebreaker baseball HOF question..... you choose

lol

I miss talking baseball

[seaborneq]

I want to see the finished product with Ichiro. He really is an anomoly in today's power game. You have to look at him objectively because he too plays in the steroid era. As of right now, based on his career, I would judge him not with his contemporaries but with history. Is he getting so many hits because no one is worried about him hitting it out of the park? It is just a single 85-90% of the time, so he may not be taken seriously at the plate, which leads to lots of hits and no tricky pitches or long counts, a la a 8-9th place hitter. I do consider that. He has not had a monster post season, many game winning hits, been on a lot of losing teams lately, and would probably be just another player if he were named John versus Ichiro.

[Willie Bee]

more Biggio 'slant'

The only charade in this discussion appears to be coming from you, seaborne. You're welcome to your opinion, I'll fight to the death for you to have a right to that opinion. But it's your claims that are ridiculous and without merit.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2881640

by Jayson Stark
Dependability and durability are qualities we sometimes take for granted -- when, in fact, they're the most valuable ingredients to look for in any athlete. But when a player's best qualities are the ones the public notices least, it's good to know there are still some people paying attention -- particularly if they happen to be people writing books on the most underrated players of all time.

Unfortunately, as this book was heading for a printing press nowhere near you, Biggio was about to do something with the potential to blow his safe haven in the Underrated Hall of Fame to smithereens -- i.e., get his 3,000th hit. And apparently, there was nothing any of us involved in this project could do to stop him. But that doesn't change the first 19 years of his career -- when only Barbara Bush, Lyle Lovett, several million other Texans, and a few off-kilter hit-by-pitch junkies seemed to notice what Craig Biggio was up to.

He was laying the groundwork for his journey to Cooperstown and to these last few pages. And even that was more underrated than most folks gave him credit for.

[Willie Bee]

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/297730/craig_biggio_is_a_first_ballot_hall.html

by Lee Andrew Henderson

Craig Biggio has now gained his 3,000th hit and the debate has begun. Is Craig Biggio a Hall of Famer? I've heard a lot of people say that his 3,000th hit gets him into the Hall of Fame but they sayit begrudgingly like he shouldn't be. One person even went as far as to say, "I guess Craig Biggio is a Hall of Famer because he has 3,000 hits, but he's the worst player to ever get 3,000 hits." Now where he stands compared to the other players with 3,000 hits I don't know but what I do know is Craig Biggio is hands-down a first ballot Hall of Famer and that was even before he got 3,000 hits.

[Willie Bee]

more Biggio 'slant'

From yet another highly respected baseball observer.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/hallfame/2006-07-26-borderline-veterans_x.htm

by Mel Antonen
USA TODAY

Biggio, 40, is making his Hall of Fame case with the Houston Astros. Since coming up in 1988 he has 1,099 RBI and a .284 career average. He's gone from catcher to second base to the outfield and back to second.

This season, he's passed Hank Aaron's career total for doubles and Brooks Robinson on the career hit list. Biggio is the only player to reach 600 doubles, 250 home runs, 2,700 hits and 400 stolen bases.

Biggio isn't worried about numbers. He says the fun part of baseball is trying to make the World Series. He and the Astros were swept in the World Series last fall. "And I want to play in it again," he says. "And this time I want to win."

If so, it could mean a trip to Cooperstown after retirement.

[seaborneq]

Bee, think for yourself. Don't let someone else's opinion sway in thinking that someone else is a hall of famer. If he is a hall of famer just use your intellect, don't keep posting these sleezy dear john articles about biggio. I don't think he is a hall of famer, if he gets in good, if he doesn't good. I just did not see it where he was the guy to make or break a team.

[Chi_archie]

seaborne is getting Buried....

[seaborneq]

seaborne is getting Buried....

By who? "Find an article that helps my case Bee". I gave my Ichiro account. Not enough evidence as of yet to put him in.

[Willie Bee]

You're the one that said one article wasn't enough.

He's a Hall of Famer. That's from my head and my eyes having watched him play his entire career. Am I biased being an Astros fan? Yeah. But if it was just my bias, why would I also think players that weren't Astros were Hall of Fame worthy? What I do know is that me saying that players such as Biggio, Maddux, Martinez and others should be enshrined at Cooperstown is far less outrageous than suggesting the no players from the past 20 years or so should be enshrined. And on that note, I'll leave you to think for yourself.

[tullamore]

Biggio is a HOFer no question. Only 2nd baseman that came close to his production the past 20 years was Alomar. Willie, stated you have to compare players to there contemporaries when determining their HOF value, if you do this Biggio was the best 2nd baseman the past 15-20 years. Add in the fact he started as a catcher and later played CF.

[seaborneq]

They would not have made the Hall of fame anyway. You have throw the baby out with the bathwater. You have to stop the KNOWN Cheats, and if the non cheats don't make it too bad. They still got paid millions of dollars to watch each other cheat the game and the fans. They have already won, that was their hall of fame. The average player would rather make millions upon millions than be in the hall of fame. Many can make millions, only a few can make the hall. Let's not fool ourselves. No matter the league, no matter how elite, there are only going to be a few greats. There are 600+ players in MLB on rosters in any given year. Maybe 10 are considered greats, and even fewer all time greats. Punish the minority and the majority will be happy.

I stand by this statement.

[Willie Bee]

Bi-gee-ooo!

[seaborneq]

Biggio is a HOFer no question. Only 2nd baseman that came close to his production the past 20 years was Alomar. Willie, stated you have to compare players to there contemporaries when determining their HOF value, if you do this Biggio was the best 2nd baseman the past 15-20 years. Add in the fact he started as a catcher and later played CF.

Does a 2nd baseman have to make the hall from every era? Does a punter from the NFL have to make the hall from every era, Does a sixth man in the NBA have to, does a defenseman in hockey? Get over yourself.

[Chi_archie]

I want to see the finished product with Ichiro. He really is an anomoly in today's power game. You have to look at him objectively because he too plays in the steroid era. As of right now, based on his career, I would judge him not with his contemporaries but with history. Is he getting so many hits because no one is worried about him hitting it out of the park? It is just a single 85-90% of the time, so he may not be taken seriously at the plate, which leads to lots of hits and no tricky pitches or long counts, a la a 8-9th place hitter. I do consider that. He has not had a monster post season, many game winning hits, been on a lot of losing teams lately, and would probably be just another player if he were named John versus Ichiro.

is that really part of your argument?

when Ichiro set the MLB all time single season hit record..... who else on the Mariners were pitchers worrying about?

oh yeah, maybe you are right I think I recall some pitches just throwing some under-handers up there to him.....

Pitchers worry about runs.... homers bring them in bunches, but more runs are scored without homers then scored with them...

runs come from baserunners and moving runners over.... Ichiro gets on, moves himself over.... his single is a double 25% of the time anyways after he steals 2nd....



Ichiro has done somthing no other player has done over the last 100+ years..... 8 straight 200 hit seasons... that is unreal

give me a list of active players with 2 straight 200 hit seasons...

find me all time how many of done 5 straight....

pretty select company...he is the best at what he does..



dude is averaging 225 hits PER season over 8 years....

give me a list of how many active players have ever had 225 hits... give me a list of how many players have had 225 hit seasons all-time... they would be pretty small lists...

easily top ten all time greatest fielding right fielder..... on top of all that... never failed to make all-star team, never failed to win gold glove....

[Willie Bee]

Bi-gee-ooo!

[tullamore]

Sea,

Wade Boggs got a lot hits and won many batting titles because he sacrificed his power numbers for his average. is he not a HOFer?

[Bread]

A few years ago in the playoffs, I made a bet that Biggio would hit a double in his first at bat.

And damned if he didn't do just that.

He's a muthaphukkin Hall of Famer!!!!

[Willie Bee]

Bi-gee-ooo!

Even U2 and Bono agree

[fiveteamer]

I wonder what Alex P. Keaton, the new sbr poster thinks of all the doping in baseball.

[seaborneq]

is that really part of your argument?

when Ichiro set the MLB all time single season hit record..... who else on the Mariners were pitchers worrying about?

oh yeah, maybe you are right I think I recall some pitches just throwing some under-handers up there to him.....

Pitchers worry about runs.... homers bring them in bunches, but more runs are scored without homers then scored with them...

runs come from baserunners and moving runners over.... Ichiro gets on, moves himself over.... his single is a double 25% of the time anyways after he steals 2nd....



Ichiro has done somthing no other player has done over the last 100+ years..... 8 straight 200 hit seasons... that is unreal

give me a list of active players with 2 straight 200 hit seasons...

find me all time how many of done 5 straight....

pretty select company...he is the best at what he does..



dude is averaging 225 hits PER season over 8 years....

give me a list of how many active players have ever had 225 hits... give me a list of how many players have had 225 hit seasons all-time... they would be pretty small lists...

easily top ten all time greatest fielding right fielder..... on top of all that... never failed to make all-star team, never failed to win gold glove....

200 hits in a season has not been a big deal in the MLB in over 10 years. Go up to the plate 700+ times walk very little, lead off, slap the ball past stiff fielders, while no one is playing you deep is really not a big deal. Does anyone shift the infield/outfield for this guy? No. It's like being a great free throw shooter in the dunk era, good but not a big deal.

[Willie Bee]

I wonder what Alex P. Keaton, the new sbr poster thinks of all the doping in baseball.

I don't know. Why don't you ask him?

[Chi_archie]

baseball is about runs...and ichiro scores them...on a very very very bad team

and he stops them from being scored as good as any other rightfielder in the game....

[seaborneq]

Sea,

Wade Boggs got a lot hits and won many batting titles because he sacrificed his power numbers for his average. is he not a HOFer?

Boggs was a great hitter, had the batting titles, and played when 30 homers was a big deal. He reached the magic number, he is in the hall. Ichiro won't reach the magic number and have the batting titles and 30 home runs are now reached at the all star break. My how things have changed.

[Willie Bee]

Check out Boggs' HR total in 1986 compared to the rest of his career. Obviously played during a 'juiced ball' season, not HOF worthy.


BiGGGG-GEE-OOOO!

[seaborneq]

Happened in his sixth year, not 17th and 18th. 15 homers total the last 4 full seasons really put him in the juicer catagories. I think a logical person would deduce that those may be totally different cases.

[Chi_archie]

Sea....if you bump into a more logical person then wilie bee out there in player's talk...... let me know

[seaborneq]

Sea....if you bump into a more logical person then wilie bee out there in player's talk...... let me know

More logical or more jaded biggio style. And stop changing your avatar. It is more distracting than your pitiful Ichiro argument.

[Willie Bee]

Happened in his sixth year, not 17th and 18th. 15 homers total the last 4 full seasons really put him in the juicer catagories. I think a logical person would deduce that those may be totally different cases.

Well I have to back up first and correct myself. The Juiced Ball Season was 1987, not 1986 as my fat little digits mistyped. Sorry about that.

Anyway, anyone who paid attention to what happened in that season would know that the ball was juiced, and I suspect several players were as well (McGwire set a rookie HR record that year). Carry on.

BiGGGGG-GEE-OOOO!

[Willie Bee]

More logical or more jaded biggio style.

I've admitted my bias as a fan of both the player and the team he played for. Now please explain the bias of people such as Bill James, Mel Antonen and Jayson Stark.


BiGGGGGG-GEEEEE-OOOOO!

[smarmy]

AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! You guys are still arguing about Craig Biggio??!?! There are only about a couple thousand more players to discuss. If any one player goes for more than 10 posts.....its too much. move on.