Steroids and HOF

[Chi_archie]

lot of talk about this recently here....and everywhere really


i'm wondering..... who are the guys that would have made the HOF without Steroids but took them anyways... obviously we have to speculate quite a bit... but for some guys like Bonds its obvious when he started using....


someone like Clemens...prob makes the HOF without roids
same for Bonds.

someone like Sosa, prob achieved HOF type numbers with roids....its debatable if he would have made it to 500 hr's without them.... I'd say he wouldn't though.

Palmerio? ect.

now for the most part I think guys that have HOF type numbers that we know of taking roids, prob would have gotten in anyways....

its the guys like Brady Anderson, and Luis Gonzalez that benefitted the most from roids...

but since, by and large everyone was taking roids during this era... do we just throw out numbers like 500 hr's as hof benchmarks and just compare how guys did compared to one another in this era to be considered for the Hall? Isn't that kind of how they do it anyways?

so for instance Rafael Palmeiro was a good hitter and got the HOF numbers through longevity and alot of help from injecting the needle.....

IMO he WOULD NOT BE A HOF player... he was not head and shoulders above his peers...ever

Sosa and big mac were... so they would get in the HOF

guys like Frank Thomas...(who I think was clean) get in due to their numbers and his dominance in the early 90's one of the best decades of hitting all-time


whaddya think?

[seaborneq]

Griffey, Bonds, ARod, Hurt, Chipper, Piazza, and Pedro would have gotten in regardless. Clemens would not have not gotten in, he was done at 35.

[Chi_archie]

not sure that chipper gets in yet....

[seaborneq]

not sure that chipper gets in yet....

Chipper has been in. Only player a few years ago with switch hitter, 300 homers, and 300 stolen bases and a .300 average or some strange stat.

[Chi_archie]

Chipper has been in. Only player a few years ago with switch hitter, 300 homers, and 300 stolen bases and a .300 average or some strange stat.

not sure that chipper has stolen 20 bases in a recent season...he must have been alot faster then I remember him when he fast came up...to get 300 for his career....cuz i never remember him being that great of a base-stealer

[roasthawg]

The HOF is so screwed up because of this...it's almost to the point where you just have to let them all in because most of them were probably using. Maybe if there's conclusive evidence like a failed test you keep em out. Now that it's been established what steroids can do for a baseball player they'll never be able to keep them out of the sport.

[Chi_archie]

The HOF is so screwed up because of this...it's almost to the point where you just have to let them all in because most of them were probably using. Maybe if there's conclusive evidence like a failed test you keep em out. Now that it's been established what steroids can do for a baseball player they'll never be able to keep them out of the sport.

yeah, what i'm saying is

don't let guys in just based upon 500 homers...... that number is no longer what it once was....

[roasthawg]

yeah, what i'm saying is

don't let guys in just based upon 500 homers...... that number is no longer what it once was....

Well a non-roided 500 homers is still sick...the thing is no one will ever know whether or not it's legit. So yeah, if they're just gonna ignore the whole roids thing then 500 probably isn't a key number by itself anymore.

[tullamore]

If to be a HOF you need to be the best of your generation and one goes under the assumption the majority of players have used steroids or some other substance since the late 1980's then no one player really had that much of an advantage the past 20 years. If you are able to look at it in this context then the Bonds, Clemens, and McGwire should be HOF.

Many will not be able to look at it this way, and will compare what Bonds did to what Mantle did in the 50's and wonder what Mantle's career would have been like with PED? Also many voters will punish the steroids users and those suspected of using steroids for tarnishing the legacy of the game and they will not get votes.

[Chi_archie]

If mantle had roids, didn't abuse alcohol and stay out till 4 am every night, during the day baseball era....
had a strength coach, off season routine, didn't have his bad legs and injuries....and had the DH to extend his career....

He might have hit 900 homers and stole 500 bases

[tullamore]

If mantle had roids, didn't abuse alcohol and stay out till 4 am every night, during the day baseball era....
had a strength coach, off season routine, didn't have his bad legs and injuries....and had the DH to extend his career....

He might have hit 900 homers and stole 500 bases

This is the problem with voting for the Hall, a writer with a hard on for Mantle and being all nostalgia for the past says what you just said, and therefore all the players for the past 20 years are cheaters and do not belong.

Then there is another writer who votes for Jay Bell. HOw the hell can you vote for Jay Bell. He was a nice player made an all-star team, but in my opinion is no HOF. Writers will vote for a player because he was a nice guy or a good interview.

[Chi_archie]

they need to let the radio and tv announcers vote too..... the writers are nazi's

[3PtShooter]

Albert Bell ?????

[tullamore]

they need to let the radio and tv announcers vote too..... the writers are nazi's

I am all for that. The other thing I hate is no one gets 100%. How is Ricky Henderson not 100% a HOF? But since Babe Ruth didn't get 100% back whenever, a writer will not vote for Ricky.

[element1286]

They need more younger writers as well.

[seaborneq]

I don't need writers to tell me that the stats were inflated for a decade plus. I will tell you a few things that let me know that something was very wrong with baseball stats. Brady Anderson, Sammy Sosa, Big Mac, Lois Gonzalez, Todd Helton, and Vinny Castilla all had out of whack seasons. Impossible.

[InTheHole]

What's the time frame...was this stuff used prior to 1975?

[reno cool]

Griffey, Bonds, ARod, Hurt, Chipper, Piazza, and Pedro would have gotten in regardless. Clemens would not have not gotten in, he was done at 35.

Come on man, I'm no fan of his, but Clemens was dominant throughout. Of course junior was too.
Bonds wasn't.

But Archie makes a good point. Certainly somebody would've excelled from this era without steroids. I guess if steroids were so prevalent, put an asteric besides the whole era and move on.

BTW, isn't Hank Aaron great
The first book I read in English was about him, he just turned 75

[Chi_archie]

I think Clemens was a bit like Nolan Ryan and was just a freak of nature that worked his ass off after he started to show the effects of aging, and literally turned the clock back. The steroids helped, but without his crazy workout regimen and his killer instinct it wouldn't have mattered.

If Nolan had taking Roids, he might have pitched till 48,49 and thrown 10 no-hitters....

[JoshW]

It is hard to tell when half of baseball was likely taking something.

[fiveteamer]

I think Clemens started juicing when he signed with the Jays...

[seaborneq]

I think Clemens was a bit like Nolan Ryan and was just a freak of nature that worked his ass off after he started to show the effects of aging, and literally turned the clock back. The steroids helped, but without his crazy workout regimen and his killer instinct it wouldn't have mattered.

If Nolan had taking Roids, he might have pitched till 48,49 and thrown 10 no-hitters....

He nearly did without the Roids, he retired at 47 and threw 7 no no's. Tearing a ligament is the only thing that stopped him. Clemens was done before he went to the Jays. Duquette was right. Clemens started juicing.

[seaborneq]

Come on man, I'm no fan of his, but Clemens was dominant throughout. Of course junior was too.
Bonds wasn't.

But Archie makes a good point. Certainly somebody would've excelled from this era without steroids. I guess if steroids were so prevalent, put an asteric besides the whole era and move on.

BTW, isn't Hank Aaron great
The first book I read in English was about him, he just turned 75

Pedro runs circles around Clemens during the same time frame. Clemens was good but not dominant like Pedro. Take Pedro's prime years versus Clemens years before he left for Toronto. No contest.

[Willie Bee]

They need more younger writers as well.

Hmmm, not sure I understand that statement element. Someone's age has nothing to do with whether or not they can form an objective opinion. For every old fart that pines, "In the good ol' days..." there's a young whippersnapper saying, "The old guys weren't as good as the new age players."

As for the original topic, I've always just judged players against their contemporaries. Times change, equipment changes, the whole demographics of any sport has changed dramatically over the course of the last 100 years. Take today's ballplayer and set 'em back to the 20s and see how they handle traveling overnight by train to play a doubleheader in woolen uniforms and without batting helmets, gloves, etc. Do the same, bring someone like Jimmie Foxx forward to this day and age and see how he fares from the 7th inning on when he's not likely to see the same pitcher he faced his first three at bats.

While it's a fun topic for debate to ponder how Babe Ruth would've done against Nolan Ryan or how Mickey Mantle would've approached a 9th-inning AB against Francisco Rodriguez, it's all conjecture. I simply don't think I'm smart enough to say this or that would be the outcome.

[seaborneq]

Hmmm, not sure I understand that statement element. Someone's age has nothing to do with whether or not they can form an objective opinion. For every old fart that pines, "In the good ol' days..." there's a young whippersnapper saying, "The old guys weren't as good as the new age players."

As for the original topic, I've always just judged players against their contemporaries. Times change, equipment changes, the whole demographics of any sport has changed dramatically over the course of the last 100 years. Take today's ballplayer and set 'em back to the 20s and see how they handle traveling overnight by train to play a doubleheader in woolen uniforms and without batting helmets, gloves, etc. Do the same, bring someone like Jimmie Foxx forward to this day and age and see how he fares from the 7th inning on when he's not likely to see the same pitcher he faced his first three at bats.

While it's a fun topic for debate to ponder how Babe Ruth would've done against Nolan Ryan or how Mickey Mantle would've approached a 9th-inning AB against Francisco Rodriguez, it's all conjecture. I simply don't think I'm smart enough to say this or that would be the outcome.

Bottom line. Do you think the Roids elevated stats and careers of the best players of this era? I do. The best of the best in the 70's and early eighties couldn't hit 40 homers in a season no matter how well they started the season. Fatigue would set in. 50 homerun seasons were an after thought. No one would even inquire about it being done. Too tough, too hard, season too short. Now it became ordinary.

[rm18]

Albert Bell ?????

supposedly swung a corked bat his whole career?

In terms of production one of the top right handed batters ever although had back problems shortened his career.

[Willie Bee]

Sure, there are definitely players whose stats were inflated. I don't think that's even debatable. If they didn't inflate a season number, then they kept a player's career going longer.

I really woudn't be surprised if 90% or more of the players from 1985-2005 used some sort of 'performance enhacing drug.' The name Cal Ripken came up yesterday here and as much as that guy seemed to be legit, what's to say he didn't use something at some point in that streak to ward off an injury? But does this mean that mere suspicion that he MIGHT have should take away from the streak?

Compare players against their contemporaries. Compare Craig Biggio to Roberto Alomar, Rafael Palmeiro to Mark McGwire, Roger Clemens to Pedro Martinez and make your call on that basis, not Biggio to Babe Ruth, Martinez to Lefty Grove.

[Chi_archie]

I said somewhere else, but I think Amphetamines and large does of ephedrine/caffeine are at least close to as big a part of the equation as steroids, when it comes to talking about inflated numbers.

Willie, makes a great point..... there are way way way more things dis-similar to the baseball player of today, and the player of yesteryear.... can't compare in any way shape or form...gotta compare the player to the era...and based upon that

I'd say 500 Hr's and 3,000 hits will no longer be automatic HOF bench marks...

and maybe 225 or 250 wins will be the new 300 win benchmark...

but all in all its just sad, that it no longer is just about performance on the field, stats, how dominant a star was ect..... off field and performance-enhancing drugs will come up in discussions with these players and the HOF forever more.... and that sucks....


Where have you gone Joltin Joe?

[seaborneq]

I said somewhere else, but I think Amphetamines and large does of ephedrine/caffeine are at least close to as big a part of the equation as steroids, when it comes to talking about inflated numbers.

Willie, makes a great point..... there are way way way more things dis-similar to the baseball player of today, and the player of yesteryear.... can't compare in any way shape or form...gotta compare the player to the era...and based upon that

I'd say 500 Hr's and 3,000 hits will no longer be automatic HOF bench marks...

and maybe 225 or 250 wins will be the new 300 win benchmark...

but all in all its just sad, that it no longer is just about performance on the field, stats, how dominant a star was ect..... off field and performance-enhancing drugs will come up in discussions with these players and the HOF forever more.... and that sucks....


Where have you gone Joltin Joe?

Let's move it way out of reach for the steroid cheats. 900 homers and 4500 hits. That will slow them down or make them cheat more. Put all the pressure on them. That will solve it all. Leave the pitchers alone, they were outmanned even though they used also. Steroids in the arms is no match for steroids in the entire body.

[Willie Bee]

Seaborne, what about the players that you DON'T suspect used any PEDs? Who are the players from the past 20 years or so that you think didn't use them and should be in Cooperstown?

[Chi_archie]

lol @ steroids in the arms...

[Chi_archie]

I think it is safe to say that Eugenio Velez and alexi ramirez are not taking steroids....

[seaborneq]

Seaborne, what about the players that you DON'T suspect used any PEDs? Who are the players from the past 20 years or so that you think didn't use them and should be in Cooperstown?

They would not have made the Hall of fame anyway. You have throw the baby out with the bathwater. You have to stop the KNOWN Cheats, and if the non cheats don't make it too bad. They still got paid millions of dollars to watch each other cheat the game and the fans. They have already won, that was their hall of fame. The average player would rather make millions upon millions than be in the hall of fame. Many can make millions, only a few can make the hall. Let's not fool ourselves. No matter the league, no matter how elite, there are only going to be a few greats. There are 600+ players in MLB on rosters in any given year. Maybe 10 are considered greats, and even fewer all time greats. Punish the minority and the majority will be happy.

[Willie Bee]

Seaborne, I'm not questioning your position on the steroids/PED issue. Just wondering if there are any players from the past 20 years that you think played clean and deserve to be enshrined among the game's very best.

[seaborneq]

Seaborne, I'm not questioning your position on the steroids/PED issue. Just wondering if there are any players from the past 20 years that you think played clean and deserve to be enshrined among the game's very best.

Absolutely Not. If cheating was that prevelent, no player could have achieved Hall status by being clean. The equivelent would be expecting a high school player to play Hall of Fame football his only season in the NFL. Everyone is bigger, stronger, faster, better conditioned and the high schooler is eating a ham sandwich and going to class and the prom instead of studying the game and working out all week.