Alright, that leads me to my next question. Do you think that Biggio and Pedro Martinez did use PEDs or do you just think they're not among the game's best all-time?
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Not among the games best. Pedro is the closest. Better than Clemens in my opinion. Biggio just played a long time doing average things. Nothing special about his game.Comment -
I still hold fast to my position that Frank Thomas and Griffey Jr didn't juice....greg maddux, glavine? Randy Johnson???? maybe
Pedro?
Boomer Wells?
orel hershizer?
just off the top of my headComment -
Originally posted by seaborneq
compare biggio's stats to other second basemen and catchers (his two predominant positions) in the hall......
that's what its about, how you compare to other hof-ers at your position...and how you compare to others' in your era at your position...Comment -
Originally posted by Chi_archie
If you are using question marks you are not sure if they used or not.Comment -
tony gwynnComment -
more if, they are HOF worthy?????Comment -
Ichiro doesn't use steroids... he'll be in cooperstownComment -
Pedro is 130 lbs, no way he's juicing.Comment -
Originally posted by Chi_archie
Was bigg's ever considered the best player in the game? the best 2baseman? The best on his own team? Are you Biggs 1st cousin?Comment -
Why? Because the juiced position players can't stretch anymore to snag all of his singles. And speed is such a non factor in baseball that no one tries to stretch singles into doubles because everyone is waiting on the home run.Originally posted by Chi_archieComment -
Originally posted by seaborneq
its subjective, but i'd say yes...
he was an all-star starter a handful of years, and was top ten in mvp voting a handful of years..... so i'd say top 3 over the course of his career.... and longevity counts for somthing... yesComment -
I think that any stats before 2005 should be let alone unless it has been proven that the individual had taken an illegal substance prior to 2005. Case in point, Mark Macguire was always very upfront to taking Androgel and other over the counter supplements, upon finding out that MLB was going to ban these substances, decided to retire. It was never proven that he took any illegal substances on his way to setting the home run record. Although he looked like a fool in front of congress, nothing was proved. Thus he should be in the HOF. After 2005, when MLB banned most over the counter supplements, if a player tests positive for a banned substance, their stats should be earmarked as questionable and they should not be in the hall. JMO.Comment -
Thomas and Griffey hit the bigs hitting bombs. Their stats peaked and declined as they got older. Unless they were hitting the juice in college, I don't see it.Originally posted by Chi_archieComment -
A handful out of 20 is not very convincing. One of every 4-5 years you are considered pretty good should not get you in the Hall of anything other than Hall of Pretty Damn lucky.Originally posted by Chi_archieComment -
Originally posted by seaborneq
I think this is an interesting case, I posted a thread on it......
IMO opinion I think he gets in...even if he had a career ending injury on opening day this year...
but i'm sure many feel that he wouldn'tComment -
There is at least one highly respected observer of the game that would tell you you are wrong about Biggio and where he ranks among the game's top players all-time.Originally posted by seaborneq
By Bill James
You have to understand, when I wrote in 1998 that Craig Biggio was one of the five greatest second basemen of all time, people thought I was nuts. Very few people at that time saw him as a special player. I liked that, too—I liked people thinking I was out on a limb about something when I knew I was right. I loved doing a point-by-point summary comparing Craig Biggio to Ken Griffey Jr., and showing Biggio was actually as valuable, in his best seasons, as Griffey. Griffey at that time was generally regarded as the best player in baseball. In 1997 Griffey outhomered Biggio 56-22, in 1998 56-20. But Biggio had a higher batting average, more doubles and triples, more stolen bases with a better stolen base percentage, was hit by pitches an additional 20 times a year and grounded into fewer double plays. He had as many walks and fewer strikeouts. It was pretty obvious that, if you added together all of Biggio's advantages, Biggio was, at a minimum, on the same level.
Later on, after an injury, the Astros needed a center fielder. Craig Biggio raised his hand and said, "I can play center. We've got other guys here who can cover second; put me in center." Later he moved back to second. It's an amazing thing, absolutely amazing. Who else could cover you at three of the four up-the-middle defensive positions? Nobody.Comment -
If joe fricking Morgan is in as a 2nd basemen, biggio should get in.... I can only think of a few great secondbasemen in the HOF
Sandberg, Robinson, MAZ (who is prob in partly due to his homer) Hornsby and Collins....
let me go look up the othersComment -
Mazeroski is in the Hall partly because of that monumental home run, Arch. But he's also in for defense that was and remains almost untouchable at the position.
Jackie Robinson was a great player and, for his time, and extraordinary athlete. But he's also enshrined for his contribution to the game from a perspective that includes not a damn thing to do with performance on the field.Comment -
Originally posted by Willie Bee
Bee, you can do better than that. I know you can. One slanted thread about Biggs is beneath you. I watched the game and Biggs did nothing special that even remotely equates to being in the Hall of Fame. Yes, he played a lot of games, yes he was a solid player, yes he may not have used roids, yes he played everyday and a long time, but please don't tell me he is a hall of famer.Comment -
On this topic seaborne, you and I, and Bill James, will simply have to agree to disagree.
How many 'slanted articles' about Biggio do I have to come up with to budge you from your stance?Comment -
from 1994-99 Biggio garnered more mvp votes every year then any second basemen....
in fact most years there were no other second basemen getting votes
most of the HOF secondbasemen's numbers pale in comparison to biggio....Comment -
another 'slanted' look at Biggio
Craig Biggio: A Hall of Famer?
By Jimmy West Published 07/5/2005
This past Wednesday, June 29, 2005, Houston Astros second baseman Craig Biggio became baseball’s all time modern-era leader in times hit by a pitch with 268. Obviously, Biggio’s reputation as a hard-nosed ballplayer has been forever cemented by achieving this record.
Recently, because of the record, a lot of people in the baseball world have speculated as to whether or not he belongs in the Baseball Hall of Fame. After looking at the numbers, it is clear that Biggio should be considered a lock for the Hall of Fame once he decides to retire.
For one, as of Saturday, July 2, Craig Biggio has compiled 2,721 hits in his career. By the end of the year, it’s possible that Biggio will push that total up to around 2,800 hits. Although Biggio will turn 40 in December, he is still playing at a high level, and it is not inconceivable that he will continue to play at a high enough level to reach 3,000 hits.
Even if he decided to retire at the end of the season, consider this, only two eligible players have a higher hit total than Biggio and are not in the Hall of Fame (Al Oliver and Andre Dawson), and Biggio will likely pass both of those players in hits by the end of the season.
Biggio is a seven-time All-Star, and finished in the top 5 of the MVP voting twice in his career. He also has the distinction of making the All-Star team as a catcher and as a second baseman, two very different positions.
With 588 doubles, Biggio ranks 13th all time, and also ranks 28th all time in runs with 1,652. During the span of his career, Biggio twice led the National League in runs, and scored 100 or more runs in a season eight times. He also led the NL in doubles three times, led once in stolen bases, and was awarded with a spot on the Silver Slugger team five times during his career. Finally, he is no slouch with the glove either, as he won four straight Gold Gloves (1994-1997) in his career.Comment -
You are right. Being a Texican has you all gushy over Biggs. I will not burst your bubble. I will no longer discount the fellow for being pretty good.Comment -
More 'slanted' stats about Biggio
If anyone is interested to see how Biggio ranks compared to other Hall of Fame 2B, click the link. Ray Kerby is one of the most knowledgeable people I know with regards to Astros and Texas baseball history.Comment -
Biggio has 3000 hits, no?
It's not even up for discussion.Comment -
Willie.... less the 48 hrs till pitchers and catcher's officially report...isn't this a great warmup?
its like our spring training....Comment -
Originally posted by fiveteamer
yes Biggio's 3060 hits would rank him 3rd all time among 2bmen hof-ers
his 291 HR's would rank him 2nd in that category..Only Hornsby had more...(maybe the greatest hitter ever)
his 414 SB's would rank him 4th all time...Comment -
The HOF makes no sense to me as to who gets in and doesn't get in to begin with. It's hard enough comparing players of different generations as it is. Post season success will sometimes make or break a player as well as the players numbers compared to their contemporaries.
Kirby is in but my boy Mattingly may never get in. If you look at their career numbers their almost identical yet since Mattingly was a 1B and never won a ring he gets punished. It makes no difference if he is arguably the best defensive 1st baseman off all time.
As far as roids and the HOF, sure roids does give a player an advantage but at the end of the day the player still has to see the ball, hit the ball and have the ball go over the fence. The major problem with roids in the HOF is how can a person say he wouldn't of hit x amount of homers if he weren't juicing?Comment -
BTW - Biggio is a lock for the HOF.Comment -
Biggs used Roids. He best home run seasons seasons were at the tailend of his career. 26 and 24 in 17th and 18th seasons. Impossible. Now we can stop with this charade.Comment -
Originally posted by CashMoney
Don't be a hater just because 1 yankee didn't make the cut.Comment -
Not being a hater at all. Kirby was the man.Originally posted by smarmyComment -
I am in my late 30's now. I am in no way, no matter what happens from here on going to be better physically and athletically as I was in my late 20's. Only man can make that happen, not anything that I was naturally given at birth.Comment -
Remember this everyone. Willie Mays could not field an outfield putout in his late 30's, but these other guys can have career years? Give me a break. Live the lie and you will be disappointed in the end.Comment
