Vice Presidential Debate In-Game-Thread

[infamousbacardi]

We do know though that they are the same letters. Here's an article from the Denver Post that details not only what Biden was referencing but all of the other times Ryan asked for help from programs that he has now railed against when campaigning. The AP went through 8,900 documents to uncover all of this so I guess Ryan should be glad they didn't find more than the things they already did.

http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_21756865

And to answer your question: He wouldn't look like a hypocrite and at least then he'd have a leg to stand on now. Not only about the stimulus package but about food stamps, green technology and alternative fuels and Obamacare. All programs that he asked for money for or from. All programs that he now says should be repealed either totally or drastically. He says the stimulus program sucks so badly? Then he should have offered his constituents the same secret solution that him and Romney apparently have to fix the economy now. Oh wait, he said they'll figure it out as they go along. So yeah, use the programs when they serve his purpose and denounce them - and in turn hurt some of the people he was appearing to champion before - when he's trying to ditch his old job and land a new one. Sounds great.

Again, that's politics. Romney is doing it, Ryan is doing it....Obama is definitely doing it (see Rev. Wright regarding his personal beliefs amongst many other things) and certainly Biden is doing it.

This argument is moot because it applies to ALL OF THEM AS POLITICIANS. Romney did things in Massachusetts he HAD to do because he faced an 87% democratic congress. Obviously that situation calls for different policies than if he were the POTUS.

Ryan as argued in this thread did things he may not agree with as a general philosophy. Every politician does.

[Shafted69]

[PhillyFlyers]

Youre refusing to ask because you know the truth, but don't like it. Just because racist whites vote republican doesn't mean there aren't valid reasons to support them. Everyone knows this truth.

I'm refusing to ask what exactly?

You are a liar. You say 99% of white racists vote Republican.

Prove your numbers. You can't. Therefore, you made them up.

Secondly, the reason you don't want to debate about affirmative action is because you'll get destroyed in a debate about them.

[infamousbacardi]

many rethugs in congress & rethug governors did what Ryan did in regards to stimulus. request for it in

private & bashed in public. but you wouldn't know if you watched Faux Noos.

and also even now. when presented with facts, rethugs turn a blind eye.

Certainly the reasons why a Republican member of the HOUSE v. a Republican GOVERNOR of a State would have differing opinions on the acceptance of stimulus have eluded you....which is far from surprising.

[muldoon]

These are different issues and off topic from my original and only point I wanted to stress here. Blaming a politician in DC for acting like a politician in DC is hardly ground breaking...

IF the information Biden was referring to is the same information that is public knowledge then I wouldn't find it nearly as offensive as if he was disclosing personal correspondence between the two of them strictly for political gain....

Actually, I'd be more offended if Ryan had quietly asked for stimulus money and then went around bashing the stimulus. Then he'd be like the Romney camp after the 47% tape came out...their first reaction was to freak out about privacy rules and not the content of the tape.

You absolve him for being a "politician in DC for acting like a politician in DC" - spare me. He wanted to play one side at home - and one side on TV. He got busted.

[Shafted69]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Mitt_Romney

In January 2009, Romney supported the $750 billion economic stimulus package, stating that: "I think there is need for economic stimulus. Americans have lost about $11 trillion in net worth. That translates into about $400 billion a year less spending that they'll be doing, and that's net of additional government programs like Medicaid and unemployment insurance. And government can help make that up in a very difficult time. And that's one of the reasons why I think a stimulus program is needed.



That same year he flip flopped on it.

[oddtodd]

I'm refusing to ask what exactly?

You are a liar. You say 99% of white racists vote Republican.

Prove your numbers. You can't. Therefore, you made them up.

Secondly, the reason you don't want to debate about affirmative action is because you'll get destroyed in a debate about them.

Refusing to answer.. typo.
you brought up affirmative action not me. I don't care about affirmative action one way or the other.
you were fine when I said all the other statistics on pro lifers, latinos, and african americans, but when I say one about repubs you take issue? The amount of time you are spending trying to argue against a fact, that until this time I thought was undeniably evident even amongst republicans themselves, is strange to say the least.

Anyways,

leaving this argument, the purpose of my original statement was to mark the uphill battle for repubs, one that this ticket only accentuates. One of the strongest anti gay/anti abortion tickets you can make. I may have taken an unnecessary jab at some republicans, but I stand by my statement.

[Sam Odom]

Good thread...

Walker winning

[muldoon]

This election is clear, either you agree w/ redistributing wealth or you don't...and vote accordingly. Bottom line.

Romney brought the corrupt Salt Lake Olympics back to life through the use of federal money, and Ryan asked for stimulus money that he claims he didn't. Romney was on record saying there was a need a few years back for a stimulus. Their issue is not that they didn't want it, it's that they weren't in power to administer it top down.

Seems like these guys want to be both the candidates you mention. They don't mind distributing the wealth, except when they say they don't.

[shari91]

Again, that's politics. Romney is doing it, Ryan is doing it....Obama is definitely doing it (see Rev. Wright regarding his personal beliefs amongst many other things) and certainly Biden is doing it.

This argument is moot because it applies to ALL OF THEM AS POLITICIANS. Romney did things in Massachusetts he HAD to do because he faced an 87% democratic congress. Obviously that situation calls for different policies than if he were the POTUS.

Ryan as argued in this thread did things he may not agree with as a general philosophy. Every politician does.

And my whole point was that what Biden did - by pointing out the hypocrisy of Ryan's statements against the stimulus package - is what any politician with a bit of brain matter would have done. Ryan led himself to slaughter during that part of the debate. You keep referring to him as a politician but I'd hope that if someone were to become the VP they'd have a bit more nous than to expect not to get hammered on something like that and instead attempt to avoid or minimise that topic of conversation. You don't give your opponent an opening to kill you with facts - written by your own hand no less.

[PhillyFlyers]

Refusing to answer.. typo.
you brought up affirmative action not me. I don't care about affirmative action one way or the other.
you were fine when I said all the other statistics on pro lifers, latinos, and african americans, but when I say one about repubs you take issue? The amount of time you are spending trying to argue against a fact, that until this time I thought was undeniably evident even amongst republicans themselves, is strange to say the least.

The reason affirmative action was brought up is because you tried to suggest that only Republicans were racist. Then you tried to suggest that Dems and minorities are incapable of being racist.

I'll ask you again....Was Affirmative Action a Democratic or a Republican initiative?

It's a simple answer. Who gave us this inherently racist law?

[aceking]

Romney driving a car:

[infamousbacardi]

And my whole point was that what Biden did - by pointing out the hypocrisy of Ryan's statements against the stimulus package - is what any politician with a bit of brain matter would have done. Ryan led himself to slaughter during that part of the debate. You keep referring to him as a politician but I'd hope that if someone were to become the VP they'd have a bit more nous than to expect not to get hammered on something like that and instead attempt to avoid or minimise that topic of conversation. You don't give your opponent an opening to kill you with facts - written by your own hand no less.

Again Shari, the concept that a Republican member of the House shouldn't ask for or accept stimulus money despite NOT agreeing with it is one that many people who don't understand politics can't grasp.

If he doesn't ask for that in a time when the GM Janesville plant was on the brink of closing down and crippling his towns economy than he doesn't get re-elected, it's that simple.

If the information was public knowledge then certainly the debate shifts toward the contents of the messages. In this regard, the contents of the message aren't really that damning, rather, just politics as usual which ALL 4 candidates are surely guilty of on numerous occasions. If public knowledge the calling out of Ryan on "sending me 2 letters requesting stimulus" isn't as low brow as it first seemed, however, the contents are merely political.

[PhillyFlyers]

Romney driving a car:

That can't be Romney.

There is no dog tied to the roof of the car.

[muldoon]

That can't be Romney.

There is no dog tied to the roof of the car.

Cue the response about Obama living in Indonesia as a kid and eating dog in....3....2...1.

[oddtodd]

The reason affirmative action was brought up is because you tried to suggest that only Republicans were racist. Then you tried to suggest that Dems and minorities are incapable of being racist.

I'll ask you again....Was Affirmative Action a Democratic or a Republican initiative?

It's a simple answer. Who gave us this inherently racist law?

to answer

1) Democrats

2) is it inherently racist?

Defn of racism, this time from websters :a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

Now for Affirmative action, from wikipedia.
Origins

The term "affirmative action" was first used in the United States in Executive Order 10925 and was signed by President John F. Kennedy on 6 March 1961; it was used to promote actions that achieve non-discrimination. In 1965, President Lyndon B. Johnson enacted Executive Order 11246 which required government employers to take "affirmative action" to hire without regard to race, religion and national origin. In 1968, gender was added to the anti-discrimination list.^[3] Comparable procedures in other countries are also known as reservation in India, positive discrimination in the United Kingdom, and employment equity in Canada.
[edit]Purpose

Affirmative action is intended to promote equal opportunity. It is often instituted in government and educational settings to ensure that minority groups within a society are included in all programs. The justification for affirmative action is that it helps to compensate for past discrimination, persecution or exploitation by the ruling class of a culture,^[4] and to address existing discrimination.^[5] The implementation of affirmative action, especially in the United States, is considered by its proponents to be justified by disparate impact.




Which do you disagree with ? the definition of racism.. Or the motivations/implications of affirmative action. Was it because we thought minorities were inherently better than whites at getting stuff done and we wanted to make a law so that our society would benifet from hiring practices that favored them or what is posted above from wiki?

[infamousbacardi]

Actually, I'd be more offended if Ryan had quietly asked for stimulus money and then went around bashing the stimulus. Then he'd be like the Romney camp after the 47% tape came out...their first reaction was to freak out about privacy rules and not the content of the tape.

You absolve him for being a "politician in DC for acting like a politician in DC" - spare me. He wanted to play one side at home - and one side on TV. He got busted.

Again, understanding politics 101 isn't required to post on SBR....

If you can't see why ANY AND ALL politicians have reasons for re-election purposes to do or say things they don't agree with then you can't begin to understand politics.

[Boner_18]

Again Shari, the concept that a Republican member of the House shouldn't ask for or accept stimulus money despite NOT agreeing with it is one that many people who don't understand politics can't grasp.

If he doesn't ask for that in a time when the GM Janesville plant was on the brink of closing down and crippling his towns economy than he doesn't get re-elected, it's that simple.

If the information was public knowledge then certainly the debate shifts toward the contents of the messages. In this regard, the contents of the message aren't really that damning, rather, just politics as usual which ALL 4 candidates are surely guilty of on numerous occasions. If public knowledge the calling out of Ryan on "sending me 2 letters requesting stimulus" isn't as low brow as it first seemed, however, the contents are merely political.

Don't bother IB. They simply don't get it. They'll keep saying - "NO my state refused [some specific] stimulus - see it can be done!!" All the while failing to realize that their criticism is surface deep at best. Typical of this demonizing headline oriented campaign.

[shari91]

Again Shari, the concept that a Republican member of the House shouldn't ask for or accept stimulus money despite NOT agreeing with it is one that many people who don't understand politics can't grasp.

If he doesn't ask for that in a time when the GM Janesville plant was on the brink of closing down and crippling his towns economy than he doesn't get re-elected, it's that simple.

If the information was public knowledge then certainly the debate shifts toward the contents of the messages. In this regard, the contents of the message aren't really that damning, rather, just politics as usual which ALL 4 candidates are surely guilty of on numerous occasions. If public knowledge the calling out of Ryan on "sending me 2 letters requesting stimulus" isn't as low brow as it first seemed, however, the contents are merely political.

I have no problem with Ryan asking for money. I think it's very easy to judge as a bystander but when he is sitting face to face with his constituents and is also relying on them to keep him employed, many people - including myself maybe - would find it hard not to go to bat for them whether for purely self-preservation purposes or because maybe the human element got to him a little as well. Or maybe he even quietly believed in some of those programs back then... in fact he could now for all we know. I really don't trust what any of these guys say on either side so nothing's that surprising at this point.

I was more trying to figure out why you had thought what Biden did was classless and lowbrow yet were justifying Ryan's actions as those simply of a politician. We do differ on one point though - I do think the content of the letters Biden mentioned and the other ones that he didn't but are now getting more airplay in the media tpday might damage Ryan a bit. Yes every other politician might have done the same thing but they're not running for VP and don't have the national spotlight on them. I wonder if Ryan could rewind time knowing that in 2012 he'd be Romney's running mate if he would still write those letters. I'm not even sure if I'd like the answer to that to be yes or no. Wish I could ask him though.

[PhillyFlyers]

to answer

1) Democrats

2) is it inherently racist?

Defn of racism, this time from websters :a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

Now for Affirmative action, from wikipedia.
Origins

The term "affirmative action" was first used in the United States in Executive Order 10925 and was signed by President John F. Kennedy on 6 March 1961; it was used to promote actions that achieve non-discrimination. In 1965, President Lyndon B. Johnson enacted Executive Order 11246 which required government employers to take "affirmative action" to hire without regard to race, religion and national origin. In 1968, gender was added to the anti-discrimination list.^[3] Comparable procedures in other countries are also known as reservation in India, positive discrimination in the United Kingdom, and employment equity in Canada.
[edit]Purpose

Affirmative action is intended to promote equal opportunity. It is often instituted in government and educational settings to ensure that minority groups within a society are included in all programs. The justification for affirmative action is that it helps to compensate for past discrimination, persecution or exploitation by the ruling class of a culture,^[4] and to address existing discrimination.^[5] The implementation of affirmative action, especially in the United States, is considered by its proponents to be justified by disparate impact.




Which do you disagree with ? the definition of racism.. Or the motivations/implications of affirmative action. Was it because we thought minorities were inherently better than whites at getting stuff done and we wanted to make a law so that our society would benifet from hiring practices that favored them or what is posted above from wiki?

1) "To promote equal opportunity". It does so by advancing one race over another. Therefore, it is definitely racist.

2) From Dictionary.com:

rac·ism

  <noscript></noscript> [rey-siz-uhm]
noun 1.a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

2.a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3.hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

This is exactly what affirmative action does. It discriminates one race or races over another.

And since it was given to us by Democrats, I think it can be safely concluded that minorities and democrats are quite capable of being racist lol.

Thanks for proving my argument.

[oddtodd]

you are still adding 1+1 to equal 3. sorry, but we can't continue with this argument until you fix this fundemental problem

[Deuce]

Watching now. Will report back.

[infamousbacardi]

I have no problem with Ryan asking for money. I think it's very easy to judge as a bystander but when he is sitting face to face with his constituents and is also relying on them to keep him employed, many people - including myself maybe - would find it hard not to go to bat for them whether for purely self-preservation purposes or because maybe the human element got to him a little as well. Or maybe he even quietly believed in some of those programs back then... in fact he could now for all we know. I really don't trust what any of these guys say on either side so nothing's that surprising at this point.

I was more trying to figure out why you had thought what Biden did was classless and lowbrow yet were justifying Ryan's actions as those simply of a politician. We do differ on one point though - I do think the content of the letters Biden mentioned and the other ones that he didn't but are now getting more airplay in the media tpday might damage Ryan a bit. Yes every other politician might have done the same thing but they're not running for VP and don't have the national spotlight on them. I wonder if Ryan could rewind time knowing that in 2012 he'd be Romney's running mate if he would still write those letters. I'm not even sure if I'd like the answer to that to be yes or no. Wish I could ask him though.

Very fair post Shari.

We will certainly agree to disagree on the substance and the damning (or not) nature of the contents. It would have been classless and low brow had Biden been revealing things that Ryan said in confidence. That would be exposing their personal relationship for political gain and would have been cowardly to say the least...however, if that's not what he did then I will retract my opinion on that specific incident. However, again, we will agree to disagree about the contents of the messages.

[Deuce]

So far Crazy Uncle Joe is dominating. Paul seems like a scared puppy.

[PhillyFlyers]

you are still adding 1+1 to equal 3. sorry, but we can't continue with this argument until you fix this fundemental problem

No, we can't continue with this argument until you stop pulling bullshit numbers out of your ass and then stating them as fact.

[shari91]

Very fair post Shari.

We will certainly agree to disagree on the substance and the damning (or not) nature of the contents. It would have been classless and low brow had Biden been revealing things that Ryan said in confidence. That would be exposing their personal relationship for political gain and would have been cowardly to say the least...however, if that's not what he did then I will retract my opinion on that specific incident. However, again, we will agree to disagree about the contents of the messages.

It's refreshing to have conversations about politics without them resorting to name calling or crazy personal attacks. Often I just like to understand where others are coming from as that's the best way for me to learn and ensure I don't get arrogant or close-minded. So thank you bacardi

[infamousbacardi]

It's refreshing to have conversations about politics without them resorting to name calling or crazy personal attacks. Often I just like to understand where others are coming from as that's the best way for me to learn and ensure I don't get arrogant or close-minded. So thank you bacardi

Haha, anytime! My whole point about nit picking regarding personal things for the most part is that in so many situations for better or worse all of these guys have skeletons to some effect. It's a product of the system. It's just the sad truth, on BOTH sides of the aisle. Re-election is the undisputed #1 goal of 99% of politicians in D.C.

It's difficult to decipher between the skeletons that point to a person's character that will affect their leadership and which are just a product of the system and politics as usual. Many skeletons are actually up for that debate, I personally view this one in Ryan's as mere politics....a skeleton almost all politicians likely have hanging in their closet as well.

They are usually always subjective issues, as someone may view Obama's ties to Rev. Wright as a skeleton that could affect his leadership, while others dismiss it and say it is not damning...

The sad conclusion is that in general, no matter if you're democrat or republican, the skeletons are usually only as damning as far as the other direction as the person is from the aisle from your beliefs.

[Deuce]

Biden now looks like a jerk off. Has no clue what he is asking about just being loud.

[muldoon]

Again, understanding politics 101 isn't required to post on SBR....

If you can't see why ANY AND ALL politicians have reasons for re-election purposes to do or say things they don't agree with then you can't begin to understand politics.

I follow and understand politics very closely, thank you for your condescending attitude though.

You seem to be saying that because it's the norm to do one thing and say another, that this absolves Ryan.

It does not. He not only asked for funds, but the language he used showed the same optimism others did, that the money would spur growth, provide jobs when the economy needed it etc.

To turn around and not only deny asking for it, but then to campaign against it like you were somehow this champion of the free market, is far beyond "oh it's just how things go" in politics.

Part of politics is forcing your opponent to answer for his record. We heard this last night from Ryan.

FYI - I appreciate the fact that you're at least remaining civil. Normally at this point at SBR Klan Headquarters the discussion has degraded into watermelon pictures and slutshaming of Obama's mother.

[infamousbacardi]

I follow and understand politics very closely, thank you for your condescending attitude though.

You seem to be saying that because it's the norm to do one thing and say another, that this absolves Ryan.

It does not. He not only asked for funds, but the language he used showed the same optimism others did, that the money would spur growth, provide jobs when the economy needed it etc.

To turn around and not only deny asking for it, but then to campaign against it like you were somehow this champion of the free market, is far beyond "oh it's just how things go" in politics.

Part of politics is forcing your opponent to answer for his record. We heard this last night from Ryan.

Yeah no you're right....writing an e-mail to Biden and saying, "Your policy about stimulus is stupid and may I please get some to get re-elected" will surely get him the money from Biden and the money he needed to keep himself popular in Janesville. You're right muldoon. Good on you for that one....

Answering for record, you are correct on. I'll give you that one, but both had questions that needed answering, such as why the unemployment rate in Biden's hometown is up 1.5% since they took office....sadly, blaming a prior administration seems to be the status quo and all Biden/Obama are capable of....BUT, you'll surely dismiss that as politics as usual now that that side of the coin is convenient for you.....

[oddtodd]

No, we can't continue with this argument until you stop pulling bullshit numbers out of your ass and then stating them as fact.

Clearly, you have troubles with logic. That is how this argument began, on you contesting my numbers.?. my numbers were meant to be representative of several voter demographics for effect, not based on factual research, though im confident that research in addition to common sense back up my assertions.
Im not going to say you are definitely wrong on any of your statements, but you have been wrong several times in how you reach your conclusions.

[muldoon]

Yeah no you're right....writing an e-mail to Biden and saying, "Your policy about stimulus is stupid and may I please get some to get re-elected" will surely get him the money from Biden and the money he needed to keep himself popular in Janesville. You're right muldoon. Good on you for that one....

My point remains the same.

It's 100% fine he asked for it, but it's classic "cake and eat it too". You're cool with it. I'm not. Obama said he'd close Gitmo - he didn't. There's a reason he didn't - but it's a promise broken. If Romney suddenly said he wanted to close Gitmo, you'd be ok with Obama calling him out on it? Same warped tangent you're riding.

You say it's politics as usual (and keep bringing up the rev wright thing - as though that's even in the same hemisphere)

[infamousbacardi]

My point remains the same.

It's 100% fine he asked for it, but it's classic "cake and eat it too". You're cool with it. I'm not. Obama said he'd close Gitmo - he didn't. There's a reason he didn't - but it's a promise broken. If Romney suddenly said he wanted to close Gitmo, you'd be ok with Obama calling him out on it? Same warped tangent you're riding.

You say it's politics as usual (and keep bringing up the rev wright thing - as though that's even in the same hemisphere)

It's merely and example of a skeleton as I brought it in the flow of the conversation. And my point is proven by your reaction. Some dismiss it, some would hold it very relevant.

Romney wouldn't say he wanted to close Gitmo because he's not a member of the house who needs to serve people in that exact specific regard......

[muldoon]

It's merely and example of a skeleton as I brought it in the flow of the conversation. And my point is proven by your reaction. Some dismiss it, some would hold it very relevant.

Again, people see things how they want. A skeleton is an affair or being part of a racist church (both Obama and Romney) to me. This is flat out his record.

I see a guy who lied when he claimed he never asked for stimulus funds, and actually went on record in 2002 supporting stimulus when GW tabled it. Yet now, he's this free market anti stimulus guy.

[mrpooh]

What I saw last night was one guy acting like a complete tool. Flopping around, and laughing for no reason. The other was holding himself with great respect. If i had to pick who I wanted as President(since the main job of a VP is to be on call in case needed), 100 times out of 100 I pick Ryan.