Reverse jinx to the rescue
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Fukkin caution. Would have been nice win too Crap
Come on hamlin and h2hs.Comment -
YES SIR!!!!
BOTH maxed H2Hs win and Hamlin parlay for Cup tomorrow moves on.
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Learner Hamlin says GET SOME!
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Nice hits everyone. I just fast-forwarded though the race (Had Denny for $100 with bad opening odds).
Forgot about the race with all the football on. Can’t believe he won from the rear! When I heard he was starting there I chalked that up as a loser.
Have Hamlin +600 risking another 100 tomorrow night.
Probably add one more win play after odds repost.
Good luck everyone!Comment -
Well, you were right to chalk him up as a loser. He was DQ'd 20 minutes before your post.Comment -
getting DQ'd doesn't effect dimes wagers Thankfully. Still a Win
Phew
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Pretty crazy that BetOnline has different rules for DQ's, considering they scrape all of their lines from 5Dimes.Comment -
Saved me a +3600 DQd winner already with Chastain a few months agoComment -
Great wins. 5Dimes rules seem conflicting and confusing. "at a race's conclusion once the winner is verified by officials and standing on the podium" is when wagers are graded.
Was Hamlin ever standing on the podium? I don't see any photos of him on the podium receiving his award for the win, but I do see Cole Custer there now.
The next line of 5Dimes states: "Official results reflecting any changes, disqualifications and position penalties after the podium presentation will not be recognized for wagering purposes."
It doesn't seem like the changes or the DQ came after the podium presentation.
Not sure why Hamlin would be the winner on 5Dimes per these rules. Granted they are not clear, they seem to be misinterpreting their own rules if they are grading winners like this.
Unless I'm missing something.Comment -
There is no podium in nascar so doesnt apply. But hamlin is in victory lane as winner so same thing. As was Chastain.
Winner is declared then. Then taken away of course lol. Nascar should have left the rules alone. So stupid
So basically whoever crosses line first in nascar is your winner. Because they cant fail inspection til AFTER they are declared the winner and been in victory lane
F1 I think is different but not sureLast edited by 5mike5; 08-31-19, 06:36 PM.Comment -
Got it. I figured that to be a plausible explanation. Still to me seems to be an incorrect interpretation of their rules, considering the podium that there is a post race award presentation that is the equivalent of a podium, where per 5Dimes rules, "the winner is verified". It's nice to be getting paid on these but I'm decently confident on it being grey area at very best, leaning very hard towards grading incorrectly.Comment -
Now thats just how I personally read the rules I could be totally wrong on the reasoning. Just thinking only way that justifies their rule as written
And agree its not black and whiteComment -
I'd be with it if the line that talks about DQ's states that if post race inspections are failed before verifying the race winner, will not be recognized. But it doesn't say that. The rules are pretty clear that the winner needs to be verified. Winners aren't verified until inspections take place. That's what the entire process is for. Never verified per 5Dimes rules.
Again nice wins. Would suck to have Custer on 5Dimes.Comment -
Dimes grades the order they cross the line for all Nascar series. For F1 they assess time penalties first before grading. Could have hit gin if you bet Hamlin at 5d and Cuckster at BOLComment -
Problems with this is that
1. The rules talk about a podium (not a victory lane, or race winner, there is clearly an indication of something that is due to happen in way of a presentation AFTER the winner is verified)
2. You aren't declared the winner after you've been in victory lane
So, in order to apply 5Dimes rule to grading the wager, you need to define what a win verification is, and if there is a way to verify the win then you ALSO have an equivalence for what the podium is.
I would love to hear what 5Dimes would say to answer this. If they say that the winning car merely going into Victory Lane makes the winner verified per their rules, I'd be all for it. It just doesn't seem to make any sense considering NASCAR has a very clear verification process for the win, and they have a presentation take place that is to be the equivalent of a podium that the winner doesn't get to have until after they pass inspections.Comment -
I think it's you misinterpreting the 5D rules a bit.
Hamlin went to victory lane post race, that's the nascar version of a podium presentation.
For more than 10 years 5D had a policy to grade nascar races moments after they ended, so there was never any argument about changes later.
They only added the extra words this year to confirm they were still grading that way after rule changes about post race inspections that came in this season..Comment -
Respectfully disagree. Victory Lane is not the NASCAR version of a podium presentation. They are completely separate things.
Whether or not 5Dimes views the Victory Lane as the equivalent of a podium presentation is up to them.
I think everything I've written in regards to current language in regards to their grading of wagers, and way that races are verified and then awarded, are outdated and being incorrectly assessed.
Might take 5Dimes a minute to adjust to this but just because 5Dimes is grading bets this way doesn't mean their logic isn't flawed in the process. Won't be the first time or the last time.Comment -
Well we will have to agree to disagree I guess.
Most of the regulars in this thread have been betting NASCAR at 5D for more than a decade.
We discussed the ramifications of this rule change last season.
5D were the first book to act proactively to the rule change for this year.
We looked at the 5Dimes clarification and as far as i am aware every single person in here feels like they make sense and fully understand them (anyone?).
Plus we are now about 25 weeks into the season, had multiple post race DQs and before now not one person has said tehy found the 5D rules ambiguous, confusing or questionable at all.
In contrast to almost every other book's rules at season start this year.
Why not send them an email and tell them which bits confuse you and let us know how they respond?.Comment -
This is just not true. First off, the "extra words added" say nothing about "post race inspections". That again I already addressed earlier as one of the main issues.
Secondly, here is a link from the rules in 2012 (same as 2017). https://web.archive.org/web/20121106.../sb_rules.html
In it, the only words that have been amended OR added, are that of changing "immediately following the race" to - "verified winner", "unofficial" to - "verified" and the addition of "podium". All of the same language about post race that you referred to (which do not talk about inspections), are EXACTLY as they were 7 years ago.
So, not only is what you said patently not true and a total misrepresentation, but the rule changes actually go against what you imply happened. Now a race needs to be "verified", and now there needs to be a "podium". The unofficial results, are no longer good. Victory Lane is not an official result, it is the UNOFFICIAL result as was the previous rule, nor is it a verification, and per the revised rules you need the race to be verified.Comment -
I did. I just want to make sure so that I do not walk into grey area here in the future. I have placed some pretty large NASCAR bets on 5Dimes, and scarily they are drivers who have had problems with post race inspections. I had Denny Hamlin in this race also, not Cole Custer.
I am just more concerned with the rules than anything. I think its pretty important for books to grade in accordance with the rules that they put out. Right above getting paid out in a timely fashion.Comment -
Oh really?
No word changes for this year. I must be the confused one if that is true. Was sure we talked about all the book rule wordings and changes at 5D.
Oh well, either way, their rules as they are right now are clear.
And trying to say the rules are confusing because victory lane does not count as a podium presentation aint a very strong argument. Its no argument at all imho.
I think I get your frustration that these rules may not be what you expected though. They are strange in bookmaking terms. But most of us have liked that they work for this way for years and really do understand what they say and how they work..Comment -
Really??? And you are THIS upset about the win grading and want it reversed presumably, if you are emailing them?
I handle a lot of complaints for SBR.
Of the ones about bet grading disputes, about half demand that letter of the rules should be used as their interpretation suits the result they want.
The other half? They demand the book should not be allowed to enforce a rule as it wasn't what they assumed it should be, or isnt fair, etc.
fun fun fun..Comment -
Their rules aren't clear, and honestly your last few posts are full of inconsistencies and falsehoods. It would take a while to get into what you're writing, but I've now spent the past 30 or so minutes reading the "discussion" you say took place, and nothing could be further from the truth. Also, not only are the rules not clear, but no one has implied that they were clear, and no one even went as far as to dissect them in any of the posts, only to say that "5Dimes grades it this way". That is the only thing that is clear, and the literal depth of the discussion.
Now to the changes you think took place, they were amended here, because of a F1 race. Here you were a part of that "discussion" you say happened, where people only went as far to say what I wrote in the first paragraph in this post above. No depth or analysis or reasoning, or clarity.
There was a driver who passed the line, and was not verified or given the award. But the rules said that he was to get paid. So they changed the rules to make it CLEAR, that the results DO need to be official and the award needs to be given. This as you can see from the post is EXTREMELY new, and has not been talked about or inspected in any way. 5mike was actually the only person to verify that he thought the language still reads the same. Most including you didn't even address the language, aside from adding your own conflation of victory lane with podium in random posts.
My goal here is not to beat you up for your memory, or the way you're misrepresenting things that happened recently, but your telling me I'm wrong and your supporting evidence that is false I feel does need to be pointed out.
"We looked at the 5Dimes clarification and as far as i am aware every single person in here feels like they make sense and fully understand them (anyone?)."
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In truth, as has been stated, no one understands the rule. How could they? It doesn't make sense. Even in this very thread the one person who did give a hard opinion on it views it as grey area.
Again, respectfully. Not to throw this all in your face but doesn't seem right to get thrown under the bus and portrayed as the one outsider who just clearly doesn't get it, that must've bet Cole Custer, while most if not everything you've said is inaccurate.
Best regards. I will swing back when 5Dimes gives a response. It would've been nice if just one person up to this point would've asked 5Dimes to clarify their rule. I'm requesting that they make the rule clearer and address post race inspections, and how podiums do/don't apply to NASCAR. At this point I wouldn't be at a loss since it seems clear how 5Dimes is grading, but to any new bettor who came and placed a bet that has borderline ambiguous rules being graded incorrectly, I'd be disgusted to hear that they lost a bet on it. So I'll do my diligence for that alone. Will report back.Comment -
I very much appreciate the work SBR does. They do a lot of good work and I've known a lot of people who have had disputes handled with you guys. So thank you for all of the work that you do regarding disputes.
At no point did I say that I bet Denny Hamlin on 5Dimes. I bet him on BetOnline. Granted it would not be the first time that I've had a bet reversed against me. I've never taken a shot at 5Dimes, or have I taken a shot anywhere, and if rules are wrong, I will point them out and then if it circles back to bite me in the butt, so be it. I don't play angles and if you try to have a bet reversed to a win because the rule is wrong you should be man enough to have the bet reversed to a loss if the rule is wrong too. All of that being said, the issue isn't to have a bet changed or reversed- they shouldn't be. But the rule should be analyzed and changed if it should be changed. Discussion on the topic seems to be needed.
I'm sorry that you feel I must've bet Cole Custer... that I am UPSET, but your portrayals again are not accurate or fair.
I am not upset in the least. I'm merely just trying to talk about rules that are in place, and to analyze them. Not sure why you won't keep it to that. Who I bet, who I am, where I bet, how I feel, are all immaterial. I'm not interested in any further discussion that doesn't directly analyze the rule. No hearsay or how other people "feel" or discussions that were had, without facts or content. I'd love to see the discussions if you'd like to reference them, and would also love to listen to any logic that talks directly about the rule. Everything else, I'll leave for someone else to deal with.Comment -
You keep saying respectfully after calling me a liar. I aint feelin that respect this end
We talked about it in a bunch of threads, mostly weekly race threads probably.
You say all you want is clarity.
Surely you do have clarity after your discussion here, and seeing how they graded bets today?
5Dimes grades NASCAR based on what is published, unofficially, right after the race, before post race inspections have happened.
Use the rule differences to your advantage if possible. Betonline does not grade until after post race inspections. You get a choice.Last edited by Optional; 08-31-19, 08:38 PM..Comment -
curious if they are going to look into this after the season..sure all they have to do is an audit to see which way they would have won more with or without the DQ's...sure if that number is glaring rules will changeComment -
I got a response from 5Dimes.
"the finish line is our interpretation of the podium. For grading purposes we use the order of arrival of each driver, if something is change during verification or after, is not considered for grading purposes. We apologize if the wording is confusing, our team will look into it."
Really doesn't make much sense. Happy to hear that they are going to look into it. I would be surprised if you don't see the language change in the next week or two. Whether the rules change or not is another discussion. But stating that the Finish Line is the interpretation of the podium, and plugging that into the current language of the rule... Is awfully scary. I really wish Tony was around. I don't know if they have anyone sharp left, but it isn't the easiest thing to get right... but then again BetOnline was able to get it right. They probably scraped it from someone else they know to be sharp.Comment -
It'll get there. In honesty it seems like it is consistent across the board at all shops. It is just that 2 shops, ironically two of the ones that have been well respected (5Dimes & Bookmaker), have huge errors in their rules. 5Dimes doesn't make sense at all, so they are grading incorrectly, and BookMaker has no language at all and are also grading incorrectly.
So for the books that actually have a clue what is going on and have language to grade, there is only one way to grade. It actually scares me for 5Dimes. I have been a huge backer of them for a long time, going back to the early 2000s. I took a break from 17-18, and I'm scared of what I'm now seeing. I don't think this type of mistake happens with a competent Sportsbook manager. I would be okay with them simply dissenting or not understanding the issue to get it taken care of properly, but if it winds up that they will just continually level themselves that is real reason for concern. We will find out shortly I can promise that. For me it will mean a lot to how much faith I'll have in the book.Comment -
I’ll continue to bet at 5D and continue to celebrate when the guy I bet crosses the finish line first. I know how they grade and I like not worrying about inspections after the race.Comment -
Like u said Whoever crosses line at checkers is the results they go on. Simple and I hope it never changes.
And also victory lane is DEF nascars podium. Hamlin and Chastain were also declared the winners or he would not have been in victory lane with the trophy in his hand.
Anyways lets all get em again today fellas!!!
Last edited by 5mike5; 09-01-19, 02:40 AM.Comment
