Horse Racing questions and answers

[JBEX]

Rick is getting some firsters from people. I've seen 3 or 4 now.

No surprise that they didn't win first out.

We were always shown that his dad ran most of them at about 80% first out unless they were a really nice horse.

If that is the case, and it probably is, look for an improved effort in each of the next two races.
Shouldn't take too long.

Thanks for the heads up on all three horses JBEX.

yes he's getting some nice young prospects from what I've seen .. know you've said it before that they usually need a race under them before they're 100% fit..sure they'll be at least a couple of good ones amongst them

no problem on the heads up str..don't look everyday but when I see either of them will let you know

[JBEX]

Looks like this AM ran a nice solid effort. Like most of them do. Finished 2nd and got beat a 1/2 length.
These horses go short, long, grass, dirt, mud. They never stop impressing me.

was just thinking when a sire like AM has been successful with his first crop of 2 and 3 year olds from the farm's perspective it must still be interesting to see if the avg to really good ones progress into nice older horses .. guess that's something,so to speak , that's still on the scale wouldn't you say ?

[str]

yes he's getting some nice young prospects from what I've seen .. know you've said it before that they usually need a race under them before they're 100% fit..sure they'll be at least a couple of good ones amongst them

no problem on the heads up str..don't look everyday but when I see either of them will let you know

Thanks again !

Really appreciate it.

[str]

was just thinking when a sire like AM has been successful with his first crop of 2 and 3 year olds from the farm's perspective it must still be interesting to see if the avg to really good ones progress into nice older horses .. guess that's something, so to speak , that's still on the scale wouldn't you say ?

Yeah. It is. But they have already passed expectations by miles IMO. Not that he was not going to be any good but when you factor in his stud fee which was 7500 and now 12,500, as you saw in the Keenland yearling sale, most of those went for many multiples over that. One would have typically hoped for a 25000- 30,000 yearling for 7,500 stud fee. That's a 3 or 4 times multiplier and that would be at least somewhat successful. Several though, would not be able to outrun anybody under typical averages.
That just doesn't seem to be the case with Army Mule. They sell for fabulous multipliers vs. stud fee. It's really something to see. I would assume another modest raise in stud fee for next year but we will see. They have been very careful to not raise up too quickly. That's not something you see all the time. That's another reason I like him.

We still are not sure of his long term durability with just two racing crops but barring soundness issues, because they all seem to try, no reason to think they won't continue to do so. Of course, soundness issues are a HUGE thing. But in his defense, when you run your guts out almost every race, it's those types that will incur problems quicker than a horse that takes days off sometimes.

It will be fun to watch next year .

Thanks JBEX

[JBEX]

Yeah. It is. But they have already passed expectations by miles IMO. Not that he was not going to be any good but when you factor in his stud fee which was 7500 and now 12,500, as you saw in the Keenland yearling sale, most of those went for many multiples over that. One would have typically hoped for a 25000- 30,000 yearling for 7,500 stud fee. That's a 3 or 4 times multiplier and that would be at least somewhat successful. Several though, would not be able to outrun anybody under typical averages.
That just doesn't seem to be the case with Army Mule. They sell for fabulous multipliers vs. stud fee. It's really something to see. I would assume another modest raise in stud fee for next year but we will see. They have been very careful to not raise up too quickly. That's not something you see all the time. That's another reason I like him.

We still are not sure of his long term durability with just two racing crops but barring soundness issues, because they all seem to try, no reason to think they won't continue to do so. Of course, soundness issues are a HUGE thing. But in his defense, when you run your guts out almost every race, it's those types that will incur problems quicker than a horse that takes days off sometimes.

It will be fun to watch next year .

Thanks JBEX

no problem str

yes they did go over well at the sales relative to his stud fee..i agree that his fee will probably be raised but now(unless a minor raise to 15k) they tend to go up in 5k increments..i wouldnt be surprised if it's $20k and $25 wouldn't shock me ..think beyond that is a little much in 1 season..if i remember correctly into mischief and distorted humor were 12.5 at one point (of course that was quite a while ago) and ascended up the ladder to be superstar sires..the former the most expensive current fee in north america


be interesting to see how the initial crop performs as 4yo's

they do try hard and seem to be very versatile distance and surface wise as you said

[str]

no problem str

yes they did go over well at the sales relative to his stud fee..i agree that his fee will probably be raised but now(unless a minor raise to 15k) they tend to go up in 5k increments..i wouldnt be surprised if it's $20k and $25 wouldn't shock me ..think beyond that is a little much in 1 season..if i remember correctly into mischief and distorted humor were 12.5 at one point (of course that was quite a while ago) and ascended up the ladder to be superstar sires..the former the most expensive current fee in north america


be interesting to see how the initial crop performs as 4yo's

they do try hard and seem to be very versatile distance and surface wise as you said

JBEX, you mentioned him 2 years ago and it didn't take me long to become a fan of his.

Nothing better than a horse that is always trying. You have to respect that in my book.

[JBEX]

JBEX, you mentioned him 2 years ago and it didn't take me long to become a fan of his.

Nothing better than a horse that is always trying. You have to respect that in my book.

we followed him through his short career also starting with his debut win ..asked you questions related to him along the way

[str]

You sure did JBEX.
He was very impressive in his starts.
I’m certainly not surprised that he is doing well as a sire but his success so far is well above expectations I would have to assume.
Good for him and his connections.

[JBEX]

baq R3 weds ... shadow dragon (9-5)

you'll recognize when you see him (AM)




.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Rice was found to have received inappropriate insider information from the racing office at New York Racing Association racetracks, enabling her to make decisions about where her horses would be most competitive in certain races carded between 2011 and 2015. The NYSGC issued the original fine and revocation in 2021 after a three-year investigation into a claim that she paid for the insider information.

Rice appealed that decision and received a stay of the revocation. This summer, the appeals court determined both that there was “substantial evidence” to support the commission's claim that Rice knew it was wrong to receive the information, but also that the three-year penalty “is so disproportionate to the offense and shockingly unfair as to constitute an abuse of discretion as a matter of law.”

Hey STR: Have you ever heard of this type of situation before and can you elaborate more on the subject. THX in advance. Linda RIce is the trainer.

[str]

baq R3 weds ... shadow dragon (9-5)

you'll recognize when you see him (AM)




.

He looks solid IMO.
Every time this horse has been off time of 2 months or more he has run a very nice race. Although his best number was not off time, the consistency he has with a gap between races leads me to expect more of the same today.
Thanks JBEX!

[str]

Rice was found to have received inappropriate insider information from the racing office at New York Racing Association racetracks, enabling her to make decisions about where her horses would be most competitive in certain races carded between 2011 and 2015. The NYSGC issued the original fine and revocation in 2021 after a three-year investigation into a claim that she paid for the insider information.

Rice appealed that decision and received a stay of the revocation. This summer, the appeals court determined both that there was “substantial evidence” to support the commission's claim that Rice knew it was wrong to receive the information, but also that the three-year penalty “is so disproportionate to the offense and shockingly unfair as to constitute an abuse of discretion as a matter of law.”

Hey STR: Have you ever heard of this type of situation before and can you elaborate more on the subject. THX in advance. Linda RIce is the trainer.

Sure EZ. I know about that situation.
Before I do, the press release that you posted? Where did the summation of activities come from in that first paragraph? Was that a writers version of events ?
Lease let me know. I want to respond knowing that.
Thanks.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Sure EZ. I know about that situation.
Before I do, the press release that you posted? Where did the summation of activities come from in that first paragraph? Was that a writers version of events ?
Lease let me know. I want to respond knowing that.
Thanks.

The New York State Gaming Commission announced Oct. 3 that it has amended its findings with regard to embattled trainer Linda Rice. After being ordered to reconsider the matter by the Appellate Division of a New York State Supreme Court, the commission decided to fine Rice $100,000 in lieu of the three-year license revocation and $50,000 fine it had initially assigned her.


OK STR here is the first Paragraph. It was posted in the Paulick Report. Hope that helps. thx.

[JBEX]

He looks solid IMO.
Every time this horse has been off time of 2 months or more he has run a very nice race. Although his best number was not off time, the consistency he has with a gap between races leads me to expect more of the same today.
Thanks JBEX!

no problem str

yes he does run well off a short layoff and also returns to a 1 turn route where he did well 2 and 3 back..not a good betting proposition though

[str]

no problem str

yes he does run well off a short layoff and also returns to a 1 turn route where he did well 2 and 3 back..not a good betting proposition though

Agree. Probably the favorite and I would not necessarily trust the early pace either. But from an effort point of view it’s a pretty good bet he will run a nice race.

[JBEX]

Agree. Probably the favorite and I would not necessarily trust the early pace either. But from an effort point of view it’s a pretty good bet he will run a nice race.

I think he's capable of staying close off his race 2 back..think Chad's (#1) is going to improve ..3rd off long layoff (even though 3+ months between 1st and 2nd) ..might be more of an aqu/bel type or just needed last
..2nd and 3rd career starts were nice races..that being said just rooting for SD

[str]

Rice was found to have received inappropriate insider information from the racing office at New York Racing Association racetracks, enabling her to make decisions about where her horses would be most competitive in certain races carded between 2011 and 2015. The NYSGC issued the original fine and revocation in 2021 after a three-year investigation into a claim that she paid for the insider information.

Rice appealed that decision and received a stay of the revocation. This summer, the appeals court determined both that there was “substantial evidence” to support the commission's claim that Rice knew it was wrong to receive the information, but also that the three-year penalty “is so disproportionate to the offense and shockingly unfair as to constitute an abuse of discretion as a matter of law.”

Hey STR: Have you ever heard of this type of situation before and can you elaborate more on the subject. THX in advance. Linda RIce is the trainer.

I’m doing this from my phone so please bear with me in regards to spellcheck etc.

As I said, I am aware as I read about this last year I think.
What really bothers me is how the recap of events is written. It paints her as guilty as hell IMO.
It sounds like she picked up the phone and bribed a racing official to find out who was in a race and then entered her horse that fit the race to solely gain an edge.

My understanding of the situation was that she was called by the racing official and asked to enter a horse in that particular race to , make the race go, meaning fill the race to get enough horses in it to be able to be carded so they could close the entry box and move on to drawing the card.
This practice is very common. It’s called “ being hustled “ into a race. When I had a lot of horses, it happened to me almost every day.
She apparently did what she was asked to do by the racing office.
Again, as I understand it, they called her. She did not call them. Then, after being told how many horses were in the race, she opted to enter a horse to give them enough interest to close the race and draw it. I do not know what information was relayed back-and-forth from the racing office to her, or if she asked questions as to exactly who was in the race or not, so it becomes very difficult to draw a conclusion that she waited to hear who was in a race before deciding to enter it. All this is especially true if indeed, they called her to help fill a race, and she did not call them.
Trainer’s that have more horses than most, or are trying to get more stalls to get more horses, will do the racing office favors like filling races they might normally not use to help them fill a card that is having trouble filling. That’s the old you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours and again it’s been going on forever.
Don’t think for a minute that there are no politics within horsemen and management.




Where the bribery part comes in to the story is that she gave money apparently as Christmas bonuses to the racing office. She also gave money to the guys at The starting gate, known as the gate crew for Christmas. This practice of giving Christmas bonuses to both of those entities has been going on since the first day I started training horses at least and I’m sure many years prior to that.



I can see where it can be painted by anyone as a bribe or a payment for services rendered or whatever you want to call it but it’s not that . My wife used to make a whole bunch of Christmas cookies and I would take them in and give them to the racing secretaries office workers. Many of those in that office are the ones you see that get in and out of the car that drives around the outside fence and they go to their various polls with their binoculars and they watch the races from those positions. Those are also the people to take the entries, help draw the races, and help get the races filled by making phone calls, soliciting small fields as an incentive to get a trainer to enter their horse. My wife was not trying to help fix races by making snickerdoodles. It was simply a way of showing appreciation for the work they do all year long.

Anyone who wants to see something bad in that has a mindset that something is wrong. And, I suppose in a gambling game, especially where many fans feel that there certainly must be something going on just because it is a money game or to gain an edge or whatever, that mindset will always appear at some point. It’s human nature and you really can’t just blindly trust everyone. That along with the clown shows, ie. horsemen, that are being caught, running their horses with illegal drugs only makes this seem worse still.

It’s difficult to spend almost every day, all day in the same small area that has so many other of the same people without having a human action towards one another come out. But again, it’s gambling, and there’s always gonna be some bad Apples somewhere.

Personally, I believe Lindas side of the story. I do not believe that she was bribing entry clerks to place her horses for the sole purpose of gaining an edge. I just don’t buy it. I do, however, understand the skepticism that anyone might have. I suppose you would have to experience what I’m talking about in order to fully understand it and then form your own opinion .
And my assumption which can sometimes be dead wrong, is to assume someone is being honest until you know they’re not.

I try and look at things like that but crappy people make it a little harder to do every day.
Hope that makes some sense EZ. Please feel free to follow up with any questions.

[Easy-Rider 66]

OK THX for info STR. interesting what goes on behind the scenes so to speak.

[str]

I think he's capable of staying close off his race 2 back..think Chad's (#1) is going to improve ..3rd off long layoff (even though 3+ months between 1st and 2nd) ..might be more of an aqu/bel type or just needed last
..2nd and 3rd career starts were nice races..that being said just rooting for SD

You nailed it !
The pace indeed did not comeback and it looked like that could happen.
He ran a solid second. No surprise there.
Good call JBEX.

[str]

OK THX for info STR. interesting what goes on behind the scenes so to speak.

No problem EZ. Anytime.
And have to admit, as much as I learned as an assistant trainer , it was a whole new experience learning about the game within the game. I was 21 and playing with 40,50,60 year olds. Lol. It’s a wonder I won any races much less what really happened.
Steep learning curves early and along the way. It was an incredible journey.
Take care EZ.

[BOA12]

No problem EZ. Anytime.
And have to admit, as much as I learned as an assistant trainer , it was a whole new experience learning about the game within the game. I was 21 and playing with 40,50,60 year olds. Lol. It’s a wonder I won any races much less what really happened.
Steep learning curves early and along the way. It was an incredible journey.
Take care EZ.

One of the best books I ever read on this sport, "Smart Handicapping Made Easy" author Richard Baumon 1960 ( I think

that's his name) hammers the idea of The Trainers Intention as The Most Important Angle all cappers need to figure

out.

[JBEX]

One of the best books I ever read on this sport, "Smart Handicapping Made Easy" author Richard Baumon 1960 ( I think

that's his name) hammers the idea of The Trainers Intention as The Most Important Angle all cappers need to figure

out.

soft cover available on Amazon for $4.95..only 6 reviews and they were mostly favorable..published 1974

[BOA12]

soft cover available on Amazon for $4.95..only 6 reviews and they were mostly favorable..published 1974

Must be a second publishing.

Lent my original to buddy 2 years and it disappeared.

Thanks Guru, now I know what I want for Christmas, I've always been a cheap date.

[JBEX]

Must be a second publishing.

Lent my original to buddy 2 years and it disappeared.

Thanks Guru, now I know what I want for Christmas, I've always been a cheap date.

lol..may pick up a copy myself..cool to read a book that was out when the racing form had a small fraction of the info they have in it now .. approaching things from that perspective a valuable tool and trainer intentions/strengths a part of my game going back a long ways

[BOA12]

lol..may pick up a copy myself..cool to read a book that was out when the racing form had a small fraction of the info they have in it now .. approaching things from that perspective a valuable tool and trainer intentions/strengths a part of my game going back a long ways

It's an easy read, big print, 1st grade level.

Actually bought it at yard sale for .25 in 1976.

I used to read it once a year to stay sharp.

A good fit for your library.

Those trainers, a mysterious group of individuals, like magicians who never reveal their secrets. LOL.

I would recommend this book to beginners or seasoned veterans.

[JBEX]

It's an easy read, big print, 1st grade level.

Actually bought it at yard sale for .25 in 1976.

I used to read it once a year to stay sharp.

A good fit for your library.

Those trainers, a mysterious group of individuals, like magicians who never reveal their secrets. LOL.

I would recommend this book to beginners or seasoned veterans.

yes I'd definitely enjoy it and sure I'd gain some good perspective..lot's of the trainer strengths as you know are right in the pp's these days but back in those times it would be more of an edge if you did the research..even with all the info available there's still room for some judgement of the situation rather than going blindly with the stats

[BOA12]

yes I'd definitely enjoy it and sure I'd gain some good perspective..lot's of the trainer strengths as you know are right in the pp's these days but back in those times it would be more of an edge if you did the research..even with all the info available there's still room for some judgement of the situation rather than going blindly with the stats

Back in the day, you had create your own track variants for sloppy, muddy, heavy & good tracks if using speed ratings

as your gauge..

[str]

One of the best books I ever read on this sport, "Smart Handicapping Made Easy" author Richard Baumon 1960 ( I think

that's his name) hammers the idea of The Trainers Intention as The Most Important Angle all cappers need to figure

out.

That’s one of those things that you won’t look at a field of 8 or 9 for instance and understand what all the trainers are doing but if you can get a solid read on 4 of them for instance , you are able to have a much better overall understanding of what should transpire but most importantly WHY it happens. And if it doesn’t happen a certain way, you probably understand why and how it didn’t.
If you can achieve that way of seeing a race, the race’s actually slow down as you watch them and as a result you see so much more.
And with that, you don’t even hear the announcer anymore. Mainly because you see the race from a horseman’s view.
I never understood that until I started training and talking to riders in the mornings afterwards or right after the race.
It’s a whole different view.

I never read that book but have to think it’s a must read if you are passionate about the game and want to improve. The old saying of “ you have to BE it before you can ACHIEVE it” is as true as it can be.


Thanks B12 !

[str]

Back in the day, you had create your own track variants for sloppy, muddy, heavy & good tracks if using speed ratings

as your gauge..

Oh man! So true.
We used to write the day of the week next to the race dates on the form. That immediately told us , especially for Charlestown and Shenandoah, how fast the track was. We learned that in high school and it was beautiful. Weak races with slow horses ran on Tuesday, Wednesday, than a little better on Thursday and the better ones on Friday and Saturday .
A horse runs faster and better on a Tuesday/ Wednesday than a favorite that ran on a Friday or Saturday ?
Man that was good stuff.

B12 you have me reminiscing about Shenandoah Downs. Lol.
Thanks man. Fun to remember.

[BOA12]

That’s one of those things that you won’t look at a field of 8 or 9 for instance and understand what all the trainers are doing but if you can get a solid read on 4 of them for instance , you are able to have a much better overall understanding of what should transpire but most importantly WHY it happens. And if it doesn’t happen a certain way, you probably understand why and how it didn’t.
If you can achieve that way of seeing a race, the race’s actually slow down as you watch them and as a result you see so much more.
And with that, you don’t even hear the announcer anymore. Mainly because you see the race from a horseman’s view.
I never understood that until I started training and talking to riders in the mornings afterwards or right after the race.
It’s a whole different view.

I never read that book but have to think it’s a must read if you are passionate about the game and want to improve. The old saying of “ you have to BE it before you can ACHIEVE it” is as true as it can be.


Thanks B12 !

People who read books are smart, people who have life experiences are wise.

2B an expert you need both to see if you are able to BE IT in practical application..

[BOA12]

Oh man! So true.
We used to write the day of the week next to the race dates on the form. That immediately told us , especially for Charlestown and Shenandoah, how fast the track was. We learned that in high school and it was beautiful. Weak races with slow horses ran on Tuesday, Wednesday, than a little better on Thursday and the better ones on Friday and Saturday .
A horse runs faster and better on a Tuesday/ Wednesday than a favorite that ran on a Friday or Saturday ?
Man that was good stuff.

B12 you have me reminiscing about Shenandoah Downs. Lol.
Thanks man. Fun to remember.

Back in the day, as I remember, all tracks raced 6 days a week to accommodate all classes of equines.

We had Sportsmans, Balmoral, Arlington and My Favorite Hawthorne. And Fairmont down St Louis way.

My favorite still standing and Fairmont now Fan Duel.

[str]

Back in the day, as I remember, all tracks raced 6 days a week to accommodate all classes of equines.

We had Sportsmans, Balmoral, Arlington and My Favorite Hawthorne. And Fairmont down St Louis way.

My favorite still standing and Fairmont now Fan Duel.

Actually ran a horse at Hawthorne in a stake. Up the track but cool experience.
Wasn’t their paddock indoors with a low ceiling or something like that? Something was different I think???

[BOA12]

Actually ran a horse at Hawthorne in a stake. Up the track but cool experience.
Wasn’t their paddock indoors with a low ceiling or something like that? Something was different I think???

I'd only be guessing str about the paddock, however next trip to Hawthorne I will inquire.

[str]

I'd only be guessing str about the paddock, however next trip to Hawthorne I will inquire.

Maybe the horses had to walk uphill to get outside ???
It was something I think.
I’ll wait to hear. Thanks B12

[JBEX]

hey str


army mule at kee


R5 #9 haul (8-1)

2yo allowance race which as you know is like a stakes race there..broke maiden in his debut @ bel and caught a monster in the saratoga special next out..had some trouble at the start




.