Christ like MMA betting

**gabe** · 08-11-12, 03:44 AM

Originally posted by Vaughany

Fight is here...he defended a half-hearted body lock takedown attempt from Poirier for about 12 seconds and then got double legged. I aslo bet on Holloway against Schilling but not because Holloway has shown solid TDD or grappling in general but simply because Schilling was clearly no way near Poirier's level or anybody else in the UFC so yes against him you could be confident that Max would be able to defend his shittty takedowns. Lawrence is no Chael Sonnen obviously and there is no guarantee that Lawrence will even go for a takedown

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POeEB5DL6NA

he defends two solid takedown attempts before being picked up and slammed down (not really a "takedown")

**Jesus Christ** · 08-11-12, 04:41 AM

I don't think Holloways td defense is shit.....just his abilities when it hits the mat.

**Jesus Christ** · 08-11-12, 04:43 AM

but......I've been wrong before and will be wrong again.

**more_betterness** · 08-11-12, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by gabe

he defends two solid takedown attempts before being picked up and slammed down (not really a "takedown")

What part of that makes it not really a takedown?

**Vaughany** · 08-11-12, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by more_betterness

What part of that makes it not really a takedown?

hahaha

**gabe** · 08-11-12, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by more_betterness

What part of that makes it not really a takedown?

it's not a single leg, double leg, or any form of typical takedown you can defend. you can't really defend someone picking you up like you're a baby and putting you on the mat. that's all size+power advantage. TDD doesn't work against that.

i thought it's pretty obvious, but sometimes i gotta spell everything out for you guys.

i don't know how you guys are able to cap fights when so many things have to be spelled out and explained. holloway's tdd shouldn't even be a question. if you didn't already know he's got solid tdd before his last fight, then you're not very good at this handicapping thing.

**Vaughany** · 08-11-12, 02:11 PM

lol

**more_betterness** · 08-11-12, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by gabe

it's not a single leg, double leg, or any form of typical takedown you can defend. you can't really defend someone picking you up like you're a baby and putting you on the mat. that's all size+power advantage. TDD doesn't work against that.

i thought it's pretty obvious, but sometimes i gotta spell everything out for you guys.

i don't know how you guys are able to cap fights when so many things have to be spelled out and explained. holloway's tdd shouldn't even be a question. if you didn't already know he's got solid tdd before his last fight, then you're not very good at this handicapping thing.

Don't want to start a flame war or anything, but you're way off on this one. I've wrestled my entire life and the only thing that could possibly make that seem like it isn't a double leg to you is the fact that the cage was involved. That finish is extremely common in freestyle/folkstyle wrestling. Sure, his initial shot looks like crap from a wrestling standpoint, but the finish is just a way to finish a super deep double.

**gabe** · 08-11-12, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by more_betterness

Don't want to start a flame war or anything, but you're way off on this one. I've wrestled my entire life and the only thing that could possibly make that seem like it isn't a double leg to you is the fact that the cage was involved. That finish is extremely common in freestyle/folkstyle wrestling. Sure, his initial shot looks like crap from a wrestling standpoint, but the finish is just a way to finish a super deep double.

Except he picks him up by his ass, not his legs... He hugs his ass/lower-back, and lifts him up... Like "OK, I can't seem to take you down technically, so I'll just use size+strength." Clearly, it's still a takedown, as it counts as one, but it's not a takedown you can defend, therefor belongs nowhere in a conversation about his TDD. he defended all of poirier's takedowns, then got taken down with the ass-lift-and-slam.

same thing i said before the schilling fight when i was saying he is a steal at that line; only reason poirier won that fight was 'cos he implemented his size and strength. same reason rorymac beat che mills. size and strength advantage plays a big factor. wish everyone would fight at their proper weight classes.

**The HOFF** · 08-11-12, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by gabe

it's not a single leg, double leg, or any form of typical takedown you can defend. you can't really defend someone picking you up like you're a baby and putting you on the mat. that's all size+power advantage. TDD doesn't work against that.

i thought it's pretty obvious, but sometimes i gotta spell everything out for you guys.

i don't know how you guys are able to cap fights when so many things have to be spelled out and explained. holloway's tdd shouldn't even be a question. if you didn't already know he's got solid tdd before his last fight, then you're not very good at this handicapping thing.

**more_betterness** · 08-11-12, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by gabe

Except he picks him up by his ass, not his legs... He hugs his ass/lower-back, and lifts him up... Like "OK, I can't seem to take you down technically, so I'll just use size+strength." Clearly, it's still a takedown, as it counts as one, but it's not a takedown you can defend, therefor belongs nowhere in a conversation about his TDD. he defended all of poirier's takedowns, then got taken down with the ass-lift-and-slam.

same thing i said before the schilling fight when i was saying he is a steal at that line; only reason poirier won that fight was 'cos he implemented his size and strength. same reason rorymac beat che mills. size and strength advantage plays a big factor. wish everyone would fight at their proper weight classes.

As I said, that finish, locking of the hands behind the ass included, is very common in wrestling if you're looking to lift your opponent off of a double. Its a tailor made 3 point takedown in freestyle. You're right that it is a less technical and more brute strength based move, but its still very much a double leg takedown.

**gabe** · 08-11-12, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by The HOFF

**Vaughany** · 08-11-12, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by gabe

Except he picks him up by his ass, not his legs... He hugs his ass/lower-back, and lifts him up... Like "OK, I can't seem to take you down technically, so I'll just use size+strength." Clearly, it's still a takedown, as it counts as one, but it's not a takedown you can defend, therefor belongs nowhere in a conversation about his TDD. he defended all of poirier's takedowns, then got taken down with the ass-lift-and-slam.

same thing i said before the schilling fight when i was saying he is a steal at that line; only reason poirier won that fight was 'cos he implemented his size and strength. same reason rorymac beat che mills. size and strength advantage plays a big factor. wish everyone would fight at their proper weight classes.

Rory's grappling is on a whole different level to Mills', I think tht played a big part!

**more_betterness** · 08-11-12, 02:47 PM

It's also very defendable against the cage. Leveraging with underhooks, a wide base, and especially lower hips make it virtually impossible to be lifted like that if you have any semblance of wrestling skill.

**Vaughany** · 08-11-12, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by more_betterness

As I said, that finish, locking of the hands behind the ass included, is very common in wrestling if you're looking to lift your opponent off of a double. Its a tailor made 3 point takedown in freestyle. You're right that it is a less technical and more brute strength based move, but its still very much a double leg takedown.

Exactly. And when the opponent has his legs spread as much as Holloway had and furthermore with the cage in the way (so cant explode forward) you have no choice but to go higher up the body as you quite obviously cant lock the hands behind the knees due to the distance behind them.

**Vaughany** · 08-11-12, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by Vaughany

Exactly. And when the opponent has his legs spread as much as Holloway had and furthermore with the cage in the way (so cant explode forward) you have no choice but to go higher up the body as you quite obviously cant lock the hands behind the knees due to the distance behind them.

*between

**gabe** · 08-11-12, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Vaughany

Rory's grappling is on a whole different level to Mills', I think tht played a big part!

What a dumb and obvious thing to say. It was very easy for Rory to take the fight to the ground after he was getting his ass kicked on the feet. It was not easy because he is an incredible grappler, it was easy because it was like a big guy taking down a little guy. A shitty grappler his size would have taken Mills down, too.

**gabe** · 08-11-12, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by more_betterness

It's also very defendable against the cage. Leveraging with underhooks, a wide base, and especially lower hips make it virtually impossible to be lifted like that if you have any semblance of wrestling skill.

I've seen fighters get taken down like that often in the UFC, never once seen it attempted and failed. Please refer me to some UFC fights where that's taken place.

I don't see how you would get underhooks on a guy who has his arms tightly wrapped around your ass...

**gabe** · 08-11-12, 03:06 PM

In conclusion: Holloway's TDD is good and will likely be good enough vs Lawrence.

**more_betterness** · 08-11-12, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by gabe

I've seen fighters get taken down like that often in the UFC, never once seen it attempted and failed. Please refer me to some UFC fights where that's taken place.

I don't see how you would get underhooks on a guy who has his arms tightly wrapped around your ass...

I'm not going to go through tape to find a specific example, but if I see it in the tape I'm watching before the event tonight I'll let you know. It happens a lot due to poor TDD. Granted against a high level wrestler its very hard to defend, but I'm specifically talking about Poirier in this case. And its not pummeling for underhooks once he has his hands locked. Its sinking underhooks and leveraging to prevent him from both locking his hands and getting his hips under yours. Holloway actually tried on that takedown, look at his right arm. He had an underhook, it was just crappy and he didn't leverage correctly.

**PuckIt** · 08-11-12, 03:13 PM

Lines are moving against you on almost all plays Jesus....hmmmm. Thoughts?

**Vaughany** · 08-11-12, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by gabe

What a dumb and obvious thing to say. It was very easy for Rory to take the fight to the ground after he was getting his ass kicked on the feet. It was not easy because he is an incredible grappler, it was easy because it was like a big guy taking down a little guy. A shitty grappler his size would have taken Mills down, too.

You're making it out like they are massively different in size and strength. Mills is taller than Rory and its not like Rory is massively thick. Go and watch the weigh-in again...there was hardly any size difference...Mills is actually a big WW.

**Vaughany** · 08-11-12, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by gabe

What a dumb and obvious thing to say. It was very easy for Rory to take the fight to the ground after he was getting his ass kicked on the feet. It was not easy because he is an incredible grappler, it was easy because it was like a big guy taking down a little guy. A shitty grappler his size would have taken Mills down, too.

And how was it dumb and obvious when you are saying the complete opposite! You're arguing it was all his size advantage tht got the takedown when it clearly wasnt

**gabe** · 08-11-12, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by Vaughany

You're making it out like they are massively different in size and strength. Mills is taller than Rory and its not like Rory is massively thick. Go and watch the weigh-in again...there was hardly any size difference...Mills is actually a big WW.

Quit saying ridiculous shit, V. Edgar looked bigger than Bendo at the weigh-ins yesterday. Guess who will look bigger at the fight tonight??? Seriously bro, what a dumb thing to say... and you always bring up that I use the word "dumb" a lot, but clearly you make me!!

yeah dude, totally same size... lol... rory is a juiced up MONSTER, much bigger than Mills.

**gabe** · 08-11-12, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by more_betterness

I'm not going to go through tape to find a specific example, but if I see it in the tape I'm watching before the event tonight I'll let you know. It happens a lot due to poor TDD. Granted against a high level wrestler its very hard to defend, but I'm specifically talking about Poirier in this case. And its not pummeling for underhooks once he has his hands locked. Its sinking underhooks and leveraging to prevent him from both locking his hands and getting his hips under yours. Holloway actually tried on that takedown, look at his right arm. He had an underhook, it was just crappy and he didn't leverage correctly.

Respek.

**Jesus Christ** · 08-11-12, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by PuckIt

Lines are moving against you on almost all plays Jesus....hmmmm. Thoughts?

I'm not too concerned...but yea wish I would have waited.

**gabe** · 08-11-12, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Vaughany

And how was it dumb and obvious when you are saying the complete opposite! You're arguing it was all his size advantage tht got the takedown when it clearly wasnt

Well, Che didn't see him and fall to the ground based on visuals alone, so you're right, it wasn't.

**Vaughany** · 08-11-12, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by gabe

Quit saying ridiculous shit, V. Edgar looked bigger than Bendo at the weigh-ins yesterday. Guess who will look bigger at the fight tonight??? Seriously bro, what a dumb thing to say... and you always bring up that I use the word "dumb" a lot, but clearly you make me!!

yeah dude, totally same size... lol... rory is a juiced up MONSTER, much bigger than Mills.

Weigh-ins or not, Che Mills is not a small WW. Was he 6ft 1 at weigh-in then suddenly shrunk during the fight or did Rory Mac suddenly get taller? How does tht image show tht Rory Mac is bigger?

**more_betterness** · 08-11-12, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by gabe

Respek.

Good luck tonight bud.

**gabe** · 08-11-12, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by Vaughany

Weigh-ins or not, Che Mills is not a small WW. Was he 6ft 1 at weigh-in then suddenly shrunk during the fight or did Rory Mac suddenly get taller? How does tht image show tht Rory Mac is bigger?

It is completely irrelevant how big Che Mills is. Zach Randolph is huge but he's still smaller than Dwight Howard. (NBA) Just because Che Mills is tall does not mean Rory is not much bigger and physically stronger. (mostly due to juicing) Nobody said Mills is a small welterweight, so quit saying dumb irrelevant shyt

That image shows that Rory Mac is bigger by using your eyes to look at their bodies compared to each other

rory's body is more than 1/4 bigger than mills'

**gabe** · 08-11-12, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by more_betterness

Good luck tonight bud.

You, too.

**MMAbetMASTA** · 08-11-12, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Jesus Christ

I'm not too concerned...but yea wish I would have waited.

exactly.. be confident jesus, don't let that concern you...

**Vaughany** · 08-11-12, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by gabe

It is completely irrelevant how big Che Mills is. Zach Randolph is huge but he's still smaller than Dwight Howard. (NBA) Just because Che Mills is tall does not mean Rory is not much bigger and physically stronger. (mostly due to juicing) Nobody said Mills is a small welterweight, so quit saying dumb irrelevant shyt

That image shows that Rory Mac is bigger by using your eyes to look at their bodies compared to each other

rory's body is more than 1/4 bigger than mills'

Mills has been taken down by smaller guys numerous times before, I suggest you go and watch the Shirai fight for instance. TO say that Rory just took him down due to size and strength advantage is complete speculation.

**gabe** · 08-11-12, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by Vaughany

Mills has been taken down by smaller guys numerous times before, I suggest you go and watch the Shirai fight for instance. TO say that Rory just took him down due to size and strength advantage is complete speculation.

Two dumb things were said here. 1) Nobody said Mills can't be taken down easily. (He's English!!!!) You are again being completely irrelevant. 2) Nobody said Rory took him down due to size and strength. That was about Poirier. Rory dominated due to size and strength, I'm sure he could have taken him down, regardless of size. Just wouldn't have been able to implement the same dominant form of ground and pound on a guy of his own size.

**Vaughany** · 08-11-12, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by gabe

What a dumb and obvious thing to say. It was very easy for Rory to take the fight to the ground after he was getting his ass kicked on the feet. It was not easy because he is an incredible grappler, it was easy because it was like a big guy taking down a little guy. A shitty grappler his size would have taken Mills down, too.

Originally posted by gabe

Except he picks him up by his ass, not his legs... He hugs his ass/lower-back, and lifts him up... Like "OK, I can't seem to take you down technically, so I'll just use size+strength." Clearly, it's still a takedown, as it counts as one, but it's not a takedown you can defend, therefor belongs nowhere in a conversation about his TDD. he defended all of poirier's takedowns, then got taken down with the ass-lift-and-slam.

same thing i said before the schilling fight when i was saying he is a steal at that line; only reason poirier won that fight was 'cos he implemented his size and strength. same reason rorymac beat che mills. size and strength advantage plays a big factor. wish everyone would fight at their proper weight classes.

Originally posted by gabe

Two dumb things were said here. 1) Nobody said Mills can't be taken down easily. (He's English!!!!) You are again being completely irrelevant. 2) Nobody said Rory took him down due to size and strength. That was about Poirier. Rory dominated due to size and strength, I'm sure he could have taken him down, regardless of size. Just wouldn't have been able to implement the same dominant form of ground and pound on a guy of his own size.

Originally posted by gabe

Except he picks him up by his ass, not his legs... He hugs his ass/lower-back, and lifts him up... Like "OK, I can't seem to take you down technically, so I'll just use size+strength." Clearly, it's still a takedown, as it counts as one, but it's not a takedown you can defend, therefor belongs nowhere in a conversation about his TDD. he defended all of poirier's takedowns, then got taken down with the ass-lift-and-slam.

same thing i said before the schilling fight when i was saying he is a steal at that line; only reason poirier won that fight was 'cos he implemented his size and strength. same reason rorymac beat che mills. size and strength advantage plays a big factor. wish everyone would fight at their proper weight classes.

Originally posted by gabe

What a dumb and obvious thing to say. It was very easy for Rory to take the fight to the ground after he was getting his ass kicked on the feet. It was not easy because he is an incredible grappler, it was easy because it was like a big guy taking down a little guy. A shitty grappler his size would have taken Mills down, too.