5Dimes stole 14 500 USD

[Boxing Champ]

If you're making +EV bets (beating the closing line, playing correlated parlays etc). Most don't take the money, just close the account.

What??

[BrianLaverty]

i'm sure by his rebuttal in the last page that he was guilty of having a bot.... seemed like he was backtracking and coming up with excuses.... usually the first sign.

[chachi]

What??

He means that a reputable book will pay out, and then refuse to accept further business from you ...

[clowncar]

The rules are the rules, and you agree to them when you play there. All of these questions about "what is wrong with a bot" mean nothing. The rule was posted, and he either did or did not use a bot.

I personally like to see players get paid unless it was just outright fraud. A lot of these books steal enough money through various rules, and have ridiculously high banking fees now.

I think most of these recreational books have a rule that says they can void any "wise guy", "professional" or "syndicate" sports wagers, and the decision of the book is final. That rule is a true license to steal.

The problem that I have with this type of rule is that I believe a lot of these books can then just freeroll the player. If the player loses twenty dimes they keep it and if he wins 14 dimes they don't pay. They should be able to find a way to determine bot use and eliminate immediately and not 600 hours of play later just because the player is winning.

[Boxing Champ]

The problem that I have with this type of rule is that I believe a lot of these books can then just freeroll the player. If the player loses twenty dimes they keep it and if he wins 14 dimes they don't pay. They should be able to find a way to determine bot use and eliminate immediately and not 600 hours of play later just because the player is winning.

That's exactly what i was talking about earlier.....

[clowncar]

Your post was "spot on" in my opinion, Champ.

[pokerplayer22]

Even tho Tony can be harsh, there is little doubt in my mind that he'll do the right thing in the end...Pay the player, close his acct, change the payouts in that particular casino game (which i guess he already did), and move on to the next customer he can bully.

[Boxing Champ]

If you're making +EV bets (beating the closing line, playing correlated parlays etc). Most don't take the money, just close the account.

What does that mean???..beating closing lines...playing correlated parlays...

[Santo]

If you bet Mets +140, and the market closes (when the game starts) Mets +110, in the long term you will win.

If you bet (USC -40 parlayed with USC/Hawaii Over 47) and/or (Hawaii +40 parlayed with USC/Hawaii Under 47) in the long term you will win.

The books can see if the bets you're making will cost them money in the long term. The above are extreme examples, but you (hopefully) get the point.

[Santo]

One question I would ask the casual observer. Was the problem here the use of a bot or the pay table of this particular game? Evidenced by the fact the payout was immediately taken down and changed I would go with the latter.

Just to repeat what I wrote at Peeps for this audience, I wouldn't read too much into immediately changing the payouts. It would be obvious that once this dispute was raised it would get publicity here, thus sharps would see the game and it had no chance of long term profitability for 5Dimes.

The original pay-table gave players the edge no doubt, but how many then casually lost any expectation playing all the other games in the casino?

[Boxing Champ]

If you bet Mets +140, and the market closes (when the game starts) Mets +110, in the long term you will win.

If you bet (USC -40 parlayed with USC/Hawaii Over 47) and/or (Hawaii +40 parlayed with USC/Hawaii Under 47) in the long term you will win.

The books can see if the bets you're making will cost them money in the long term. The above are extreme examples, but you (hopefully) get the point.

I get baseball example, but i have a hard time understanding the parlay one...
Please explain in more detail if it's not too much trouble.

[Counterfeit Cash]

well, he's awfully quiet now, lol...almost to a fault.

[Boxing Champ]

well, he's awfully quiet now, lol...almost to a fault.

He's been quiet all day.. i think he cheated and he knows that... He doesn't wanna expose himself and be ridiculed forever on this site. The mods asked for his permission to make his hands history quiet and he refuses to approve.. I wonder why??? I guess you can stick a for in 'em and his money!!!!

[WVU]

he was advised to keep quiet, guys. I would hope you could figure that one out

[clowncar]

We also told him to be quiet and maybe he misunderstood. I am trying to figure out how the hand histories could hurt him unless they show he didn't take the breaks that he said he did.

[Legions36]

I dont know why would they steal from him its a reputable company that always pays.

[Boxing Champ]

he was advised to keep quiet, guys. I would hope you could figure that one out

By quiet I don't mean to come out here and comment and explain every post. I mean he's not giving his ok for the mods to make his hands public... If he was innocent he wouldn't wait a second to prove he was right and jump on the first chance to get his money back...

[TheMoneyShot]

I'm kind of getting irritated seeing these threads for this card game????? It's the second player who isn't getting paid from the same damn game. What in the hell is the problem? If the books don't want to pay... GET RID OF THE F'ING SOFTWARE!!! DON'T OFFER IT!!! IT'S really that Fu#$ing easy!

[Boxing Champ]

I'm kind of getting irritated seeing these threads for this card game????? It's the second player who isn't getting paid from the same damn game. What in the hell is the problem? If the books don't want to pay... GET RID OF THE F'ING SOFTWARE!!! DON'T OFFER IT!!! IT'S really that Fu#$ing easy!

I don't think you've read the whole thread... 5dimes has no problem paying out as long as the bot is not used..hence the dilema of how this guy played 20+ hours a day..hand every 4 seconds..for 30 days..
That's hundreds of thousands of hands!!!!

[TheMoneyShot]

I have read the entire thread. And it's only obvious books are going to have issues with "BOTS" being brought up constantly. It's an easy defense for them. It's just inhumanly possible to play what he played for 30 days straight... I could careless if 5Dimes win... or if he wins. My point is... there's an "issue" with this software. From a books "business" standpoint are you making a huge profit on this software? Or what??? Why are we bitching if a player hits for 40k+????? Pay the man and get on with it? Or... are we going to keep wondering if BOTS are involved? There is a pattern starting.... and I believe it's going to get worse. People are witty out in this world... if there's a way to manipulate the system so they can win... they will do it. I think the books have major issues on their hands. If one hit wipes everything they made (by their percentages) then get rid of the software. Get rid of the card games.

Furthermore, this is bringing unwanted attention towards 5Dimes. It's likely Tony will have to pay the man regardless... because he's going to get major heat for not paying him. It could cost reputation points, respect, and future deposits by gamblers.

[jairocon]

I wonder why is his place of origin, or the command of his English a question. Many people who learn English as a second language have much better grasp of grammar and much broader vocabulary than regular native speakers. My guess is, he's from Eastern Europe or Russia - where secondary education surpasses education received on a secondary level in the States. His math and language skills would have been much higher. However, this has nothing to do with the case. He can be from Mars for all we could care.

And I agree - he should not comment on this case publicly anymore. Just keep quiet - deal with the review board but don't say anything more publicly until the resolution. Everything pertinent to the case has been said and it's not up to him to find a "loophole" to clear him... it's up to the review board to find with 100% accuracy that he did use a bot. If there's even 1% chance that he didn't - he will get paid. And really - all they have to go on are timestamps. And from timestamps all a person can do is make a guess and that guess is not 100% proof. In the end... bot play will be SUSPECTED but it will not be PROVEN and the player will get paid.

[Dark Horse]

I have read the entire thread. And it's only obvious books are going to have issues with "BOTS" being brought up constantly. It's an easy defense for them. It's just inhumanly possible to play what he played for 30 days straight... I could careless if 5Dimes win... or if he wins. My point is... there's an "issue" with this software. From a books "business" standpoint are you making a huge profit on this software? Or what??? Why are we bitching if a player hits for 40k+????? Pay the man and get on with it? Or... are we going to keep wondering if BOTS are involved? There is a pattern starting.... and I believe it's going to get worse. People are witty out in this world... if there's a way to manipulate the system so they can win... they will do it. I think the books have major issues on their hands. If one hit wipes everything they made (by their percentages) then get rid of the software. Get rid of the card games.

I agree.

Part of the problem is that most sportsbooks don't really know what they get into when they take on this type of software. To cover itself for that lack of knowledge a book may say 'no bots'. And if that is said upfront, that is acceptable. Think Vegas is different? No explanation or philosophical debate required. But it is still far too general, and does not adequately address the problem, and potential danger.

I don't believe that A books use better casino software than B or C books. As long as the software is mathematically imperfect, a book is fully within its right to refuse bots. Of course, someone who designs a bot to mimick human timing more closely will not be caught. I'm a little surprised that 5D accepted such mediocre software into its house. But if you know even a little of Tony (everyone hear seems to know him personally), you know he won't be happy with that lack of quality. He's not there to rip people off. He wants an honest game. The one thing he can't stand is a cheat. And it is guaranteed that he won't cheat people himself.

This will definitely not be the last time we hear of bots and online casinos. We're just scratching the surface. Bots have already changed Wall Street. How could books know if a software designer didn't leave a backdoor? That's where it gets really interesting. Personally, I would much prefer that a book like 5D, and other quality books, would not mess with casinos. I don't want my sportsbook funds at risk because a book has some loophole in its casino software it doesn't know about. I never expected them to have that type of expertise when I trusted them with my money. What will a book do when a group of 25 Eastern Europeans, aided by the creator of the program, decides to each take the casino for 50K? Just as some gamblers in the old days studied roulette wheels closely for any weakness, and made a killing, so casino software can be a huge risk.

[thisisit]

Good post Dark Horse, have to agree that the A+ books would be much better off getting rid of the casinos altogether.

[cyberinvestor]

One question I would ask the casual observer. Was the problem here the use of a bot or the pay table of this particular game? Evidenced by the fact the payout was immediately taken down and changed I would go with the latter.

I think the problem was the use of a bot. At the same time Tony caught that he screwed up his pay table on this game and in the process changed the pay table. However if anyone legitimately beat the game without a bot, even though the pay table was wrong, those people should get paid and I assume have been since we haven't heard any complaints.

The rules are the rules, and you agree to them when you play there. All of these questions about "what is wrong with a bot" mean nothing. The rule was posted, and he either did or did not use a bot. I personally like to see players get paid unless it was just outright fraud. A lot of these books steal enough money through various rules, and have ridiculously high banking fees now. I think most of these recreational books have a rule that says they can void any "wise guy", "professional" or "syndicate" sports wagers, and the decision of the book is final. That rule is a true license to steal.

Correct. Each of us here need to understand that if tomorrow a sportsbook, whether 5Dimes or an F book wants to keep everyone's money and walk away, there is little we can do. So the only option is to find books with good reputations and SBR helps us to do that and provides mediation if an issue arises. That is a great thing. You are at the book's mercy. It's not fair but what I mean by you being at their mercy is most of their rules are essentially "if we think you did something wrong, you did, and we have no obligation to pay you". If something is in their rules, regardless of whether you think a bot is ok or not, then you agreed to it and that provides them a very clean out to avoid payment.

[cyberinvestor]

he was advised to keep quiet, guys. I would hope you could figure that one out

Yes but according to Lou's last post he hasn't even replied to SBR. He doesn't need to comment here but at least talk to SBR who is trying to help. His silence now makes me believe he feels he has a case he cannot win as soon as the evidence is reviewed. Thereby trying to save face by not replying and having to be told "we feel you used a bot".

His case slowly fell apart. First, in the initial posts I was under the belief he played one day of 20,000 hands. Everyone said how that type of binge and non-stop play is easy. Ok. Then it came out that he played 20,000 hands per day for almost a month which meant as a human he could only sleep, eat, wash, errands, for four hours per day and then play poker the rest of the time. At which point, despite the sleep would need to maintain a 3 second per hand time limit of perfect strategy. Then he started trying to redefine the rules and find gaps in them. As an attorney this is the first method you utilize if your client is guilty of something. To try and show what he is guilty of, while perhaps frowned upon, was not "illegal" within the law. After being attacked for that he shut up. Probably because he was digging his grave. It was smart of him to be quiet. However now the judge in our example, SBR, needs him to reply to an email and at last check he has yet to do it. He was on these boards frequently and since he plays 20,000 hands per day of video poker is probably near a computer a lot but he hasn't replied to SBR's questions for his investigation? Why not?

[Rollins08]

There is no way anybody can say without a doubt that he was using a bot. We may say it seem unlikely he could play that many hands for a month straight, but maybe he's a compulsive gambler who just can't do anything but play that game day and night. How can 5dimes prove otherwise. There reason for not paying him is speculation. Lets say the player had lost 14,500 playing non stop for a month, would 5dimes return his money saying he used a bot? The entire problem is no regulation of offshore sites. 5dimes can say and do what they want, Tony will tell you that himself.

[cyberinvestor]

There is no way anybody can say without a doubt that he was using a bot. We may say it seem unlikely he could play that many hands for a month straight, but maybe he's a compulsive gambler who just can't do anything but play that game day and night. How can 5dimes prove otherwise. There reason for not paying him is speculation. Lets say the player had lost 14,500 playing non stop for a month, would 5dimes return his money saying he used a bot? The entire problem is no regulation of offshore sites. 5dimes can say and do what they want, Tony will tell you that himself.

There are few things in life you can say "without a doubt". That's why in the US you are guilty beyond a "reasonable" doubt. I think that's a fair level, "reasonable" to use here. I mean if the hand history comes out and says he played every hand exactly the same time apart, again we could all say well that is humanly possible BUT at some point the totality of everything we know will point one way or the other. Nobody will know for certain but it'll be good enough to satisfy most people.

[SBR Lou]

Zabula,

Please be aware that PMs are routinely monitored.

You haven't replied to SBR's questions. Are you going to consent to all hands being shared?

[chachi]

Lou -

I thought you said publishing his hand history had zero to do with your investigation and determinations ...

Why does it appear to be a hold up or causing an issue at this stage?

[wrongturn]

well, If jury has reached conclusion, let's hear it. no need to wait for permission for showing hand history.

[SBR Lou]

Lou -

I thought you said publishing his hand history had zero to do with your investigation and determinations ...

Why does it appear to be a hold up or causing an issue at this stage?

I'm asking his permission since he made this dispute public, and we promised our readers it would be transparent.

If he decides not to allow the board to see the disputed play, SBR continues to mediate... though we're waiting on him at this point. It's pretty simple, the ball is in his court.

[zabula11]

Hi Lou,

sorry for keep you waiting, I did not mean it like that. I only was waiting for Bill Dozers reply how he wants to publish this hands, it was my only question and "condition" before I agree to do so. I just wanted to know how it will be done, publishing such an amount of hands. That is all... The reply from Bill Dozer I received was from tonight my time so now is time to reply. Of course i am not against publishing my hands. I just wanted to know how it will be done, because as I am reading posts, people here makes their minds very very quickly, so I just wanted to know how such published hand history will look like as I dont want any more things that will hurt my personaly. I would be in happy if you could give me any time frame when it will be published and when you will say oficial verdict as reading this discussion is for my personality very frustrating. I much more can sit hours and hours hibernated behind my computer and play than to defend my rights here... I really feel like on court here. Nobody even cares that if I couldnt speak english, I probably never even have a chance to fight for my money. Nobody feels that the only guilty here is Tony as he just zeroed my balance like waving a magic stick? Like he is wizzard of all money and he can disappear 14 500 USD just like that? Nobody cares? I never seen this in my whole life, such an arogance from "A+" company... (by the way, I also would like to see his financial books.. how such an extra revenue of 14 500 seized money is written there.. I bet it all goes into his pocket straightly..) Also somebody was asking here about authenticity of chat conversation I had with tony. It is of course true. And you can see there that tony said he of course has evidence of "bot play" and that he wont tell me what he has and that case is closed just like that... And that he will only send it to SBR.. Then he says few lines later he doesnt even care about SBR etc.. and now we see he did not have any evidence.. just hand history that I think he even cant export eventhough he designed all games and universe... So who is liar here.. Unfortunatelly, that is just nowadeys world, as Lehman Brothers also had AAA rating just minutes before all world found out they are totall bankrupted and full of thieves...

[WVU]

Lou, you guys read pms? That is bad business IMO.

[ouman101]

Here we go boys!! Lets see those hands! Zab, we're rooting for you! Don't worry about the naysayers. Many of these guys have never worked a day in their life. So they can't wrap their head around doing a job for 8 hours...let alone from sun up to sun down.

[ouman101]

Lou, you guys read pms? That is bad business IMO.

No, its so that people don't conduct business on here, and it is for the protection of them (SBR) and posters who are not smart enough to realize that they shouldn't send/lend money to people they have never met before.