1. #1
    creditcardclown
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    Nitrogen Sports Needs to Pay Out Bitcoin Cash

    So I had a sizable amount on Nitrogen Sports for years now. Always a great book, fast cashouts, good support, good lines and betting limits.

    But recently a problem arose. I bet a large amount on Mayweather over Conor early and locked up that money for many weeks. This is when the bitcoin fork happened. I didn't realize it at the time, but this meant that since the bitcoins were in Nitrogen's control, the product of the bitcoin fork, Bitcoin Cash, would also be under Nitrogen's control.

    Nitrogen Sports has made a statement that may not pay out Bitcoin Cash at all, or that they may in the future. This was reasonable when Bitcoin Cash was low and people thought it would be worthless. But now Bitcoin Cash is worth WELL OVER $1,000 per coin.

    So what is Nitrogen doing, are they spending our Bitcoin Cash? Or do they have millions of dollars of their clients Bitcoin Cash and they are just too lazy to give it to their players??? At this point, the decision to hold onto BCash and not give it to players simply does not make sense.

    I have repeatedly asked Nitrogen Support to cash me out in Bitcoin Cash, or to convert the Bitcoin Cash to BTC and give me the BTC, and they only answer me with non-committal responses like "We're looking into it, at some point in the future we might help you." But with Bitcoin Cash so high for so long, this is not reasonable any longer.

    Nitrogen Sports has a great reputation we deserve better from them! They are either spending millions of their clients Bitcoin Cash coins, or just holding onto it letting it sit idle. It makes no sense!
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  2. #2
    Crusherrr
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    Doubt you or anyone will see any Bitcoin cash from Nitro.

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  3. #3
    creditcardclown
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    I don't understand why we wouldn't. Nitrogen has done an A+ job on everything for years now. Why would they refuse to cash out millions of dollars worth of their clients bitcoin cash now? Doesn't make sense.

  4. #4
    RonPaul2008
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    Add Bitcoin Gold and Diamond to that.

  5. #5
    DroopyDog
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    Nitro will not honor it

    They made an absolute killing on that fork.
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  6. #6
    Optional
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    To our current and future players,

    Many of you are aware that the Bitcoin network forked on August 1st, 2017. As a result, a new coin was created which became known as ‘Bitcoin Cash’, or BCH for short. To prepare for the fork, Nitrogen Sports temporarily paused all withdrawals and deposits for a time before and after the fork.

    Since August 1st, some players have asked specific questions regarding Nitrogen’s plans for BCH. This statement is meant to help clarify where Nitrogen stands on the issue and what our players can expect in the months ahead.

    First, Nitrogen Sports does not immediately intend to support Bitcoin Cash. The decision was made after careful consideration about the environment in which the fork happened, and the less-than clear path to Bitcoin-scale adoption that BCH faces in the months ahead. Our position on BCH also means that Nitrogen will not immediately optimize, transfer or benefit from any BCH that became theoretically available to account balances at the time of the fork.

    That being said, Nitrogen took the initiative to log a static record of each and every account balance after deposits and withdraws were paused on August 1st. This information is important in the event that Nitrogen integrates BCH. We want our players to know that when Nitrogen decides to integrate BCH, balances at the time of the fork will be honoured in full. We are currently evaluating the timeline for integration.

    We are able to stand by our statement because of the measures we took before and during the fork to inform and protect our players.

    Before the fork, we provided sufficient notice that withdrawals would be paused. This should have given each player the appropriate time to move their funds off-platform and into whichever storage solution they deemed appropriate. And as mentioned, during the fork, Nitrogen logged a static record of all balances, taking extra care to plan for any eventuality.

    Forks happen from time-to-time on the Bitcoin network. Nitrogen’s specific concern will always focus on account security first, before hype and speculation surrounding newly introduced features or ‘alt-coins’. We feel this is the best way to protect our players’ best interests.

    Thank you for your patience regarding this matter.

    Nitrogen Sports.


    https://nitrogensports.eu/blog/nitro...-bitcoin-cash/

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  7. #7
    TheMoneyShot
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    Great post Optional... if Nitrogen does give out the Bitcoin Cash to their clients... I'd be very surprised.

    Clearly we know they made the MONEY on that FORK with Pending Wagers.

  8. #8
    evo34
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    I'll take my chances with Fairlay, who allegedly ripped off one very shady customer, over Nitro, who is brazenly stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from loyal customers, any day of the week. Fairlay paid out all BCH it owed -- and I emphasize owed -- its customers within weeks of the fork, for those who don't know.

  9. #9
    creditcardclown
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    Yeah, Nitrogens blog post was appropriate months ago. But since then BCash has steadily been worth a lot of money. At this point they are just stealing millions from players. Not worth it given how great their reputation used to be but I guess they have some reason for doing this

  10. #10
    Mr. Peepers
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    How long does it generally take Nitrogen to pay out withdrawls?

  11. #11
    KGambler
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    Quote Originally Posted by evo34 View Post
    I'll take my chances with Fairlay, who allegedly ripped off one very shady customer, over Nitro, who is brazenly stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from loyal customers, any day of the week. Fairlay paid out all BCH it owed -- and I emphasize owed -- its customers within weeks of the fork, for those who don't know.
    Wow, I did not know Fairlay paid out for the BCH fork. That is impressive.

  12. #12
    KGambler
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    The big problem I have with their statement is that it's worded in such a way that it makes it sound like just a matter of time until BCH is implemented. It says "when" they decide to implement it, not "if". They were taking a lot of heat and this statement shut down all of the questions about what was going to happen to all of those coins. Not it's 4 months later, BCH are still worth north of $1,000 each and they have no further comment.

    Over on bitcointalk I asked if they had any updates and they have none. They won't comment on whether they are considering it, actively planning on it, etc.

    Could SBR reach out to them on this issue? It's a whole lot of money for them to just swallow.
    Last edited by KGambler; 12-12-17 at 10:28 PM.

  13. #13
    KGambler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Peepers View Post
    How long does it generally take Nitrogen to pay out withdrawls?
    It varies.

    After the BCH fiasco I put in a withdrawal request a full 16 hours before the snapshot for the BTG fork took place. I did not receive the coins until 12 hours after the snapshot for the fork took place, which was very frustrating. They of course are not going to issue BTG coins either.

  14. #14
    Optional
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    Quote Originally Posted by evo34 View Post
    I'll take my chances with Fairlay, who allegedly ripped off one very shady customer, over Nitro, who is brazenly stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from loyal customers, any day of the week. Fairlay paid out all BCH it owed -- and I emphasize owed -- its customers within weeks of the fork, for those who don't know.
    You emphasize OWED as you know that is highly questionable. In fact I would say it is far more reasonable to say you are NOT owed BCH or any other alt coin by bookmakers for certain than the opposite. If they pass it on, nice. But not owed by any sort of legal interpretation.

    If you spent your money at my business and then started claiming anything I made with that money should be yours. I'd laugh at you.

    Bitcoin has forked to make new coins multiple times. How many of these do you demand a bookmaker you spent your money at to bet "owes" you?

    If you wanted the alt coins it was 100% up to you to withdraw your money in time.

    Otherwise you had spent your money and no longer had any rights to what the shop profited with it.



    Seriously, do you only want to talk about BitcoinCash as that is valuable? Don't you demand you are owed Gold and Diamond bitcoin too?

    Or are people not making those demands as they realize it illustrates their BCH demands are not reasonable? Why should a business have tor e-organize itself for these things? Why shouldn't this be your responsibility to look after yourself?

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  15. #15
    evo34
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    Yes, one would be owed Bitcoin Gold as well. Obviously. Not saying it should be easy or free of fees to get to customers, but it should happen -- and most definitely would happen if this was a legal and regulated industry.

    Guess what happens when I ask a brokerage to hold my shares of a stock that receives a dividend or a stock split? I get the money, not the brokerage.

    "If you spent your money at my business and then started claiming anything I made with that money should be yours. I'd laugh at you."

    Maintaining a balance at a sportsbook is not the same as having "spent money" at a business, as you well know. Or are you someone who thinks books have a right to do whatever they want with accountholders' funds?

  16. #16
    raiders72001
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    Quote Originally Posted by evo34 View Post
    Yes, one would be owed Bitcoin Gold as well. Obviously. Not saying it should be easy or free of fees to get to customers, but it should happen -- and most definitely would happen if this was a legal and regulated industry.

    Guess what happens when I ask a brokerage to hold my shares of a stock that receives a dividend or a stock split? I get the money, not the brokerage.

    "If you spent your money at my business and then started claiming anything I made with that money should be yours. I'd laugh at you."

    Maintaining a balance at a sportsbook is not the same as having "spent money" at a business, as you well know. Or are you someone who thinks books have a right to do whatever they want with accountholders' funds?
    Most exchanges and wallets don't credit you unless you own the private keys. Once in a while an exchange will support the forked coin but not often. There was Super Bitcoin yesterday and a handful more to come.

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  17. #17
    KGambler
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    Quote Originally Posted by raiders72001 View Post
    Most exchanges and wallets don't credit you unless you own the private keys. Once in a while an exchange will support the forked coin but not often. There was Super Bitcoin yesterday and a handful more to come.
    The vast majority of people who had btc on deposit with an exchange received their bch. Can you name any exchanges that did not issue bch to their btc depositors? I am not aware of any offhand, while the ones I know of all have.

  18. #18
    raiders72001
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGambler View Post
    The vast majority of people who had btc on deposit with an exchange received their bch. Can you name any exchanges that did not issue bch to their btc depositors? I am not aware of any offhand, while the ones I know of all have.
    I'm not sure about BCH but where do we draw the line? There's diamond, gold, cash, super, platinum. Upcoming uranium, cash plus, silver and more. Some will have airdrops. Anyone can create a fork.

    We don't know if BTC books convert to cash or not. Fiat books may hold some of our bitcoin transfers in bitcoin. My feeling is that it's not incumbent upon a book to support forks.

    If a book puts our money in a bank, we aren't entitled to the interest.
    Last edited by raiders72001; 12-13-17 at 05:00 AM.

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  19. #19
    KGambler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    You emphasize OWED as you know that is highly questionable. In fact I would say it is far more reasonable to say you are NOT owed BCH or any other alt coin by bookmakers for certain than the opposite. If they pass it on, nice. But not owed by any sort of legal interpretation.

    If you spent your money at my business and then started claiming anything I made with that money should be yours. I'd laugh at you.

    Bitcoin has forked to make new coins multiple times. How many of these do you demand a bookmaker you spent your money at to bet "owes" you?

    If you wanted the alt coins it was 100% up to you to withdraw your money in time.

    Otherwise you had spent your money and no longer had any rights to what the shop profited with it.



    Seriously, do you only want to talk about BitcoinCash as that is valuable? Don't you demand you are owed Gold and Diamond bitcoin too?

    Or are people not making those demands as they realize it illustrates their BCH demands are not reasonable? Why should a business have tor e-organize itself for these things? Why shouldn't this be your responsibility to look after yourself?

    Wait, who spent money? Did I post in the wrong thread?

    As evo just pointed out, having an asset or currency on deposit is not in any way, shape, or form “spending” it. Imagine going to a bank and trying to withdraw your own money and being told “no, you ‘spent’ it by depositing it here”.

    Evo is also correct to point out that a far better analogy is a stock split or spin off, and we all know banks and brokerages don’t just laugh at their customers and keep $1000 per share spin offs and splits.

    Regarding BTC and BCH specifically, didn’t all of the major exchanges issue BCH or make a firm commitment to do so? A poster here said even the betting exchange Fairlay did.

    Your post also ignores Nitro’s own statement on the matter, which you yourself referred to. This statement says nothing about deposits being “spent”, or about it being unfair to expect them to “reorganize” their business or about a policy of never honoring BTC forks no matter how major or minor. Instead it talks about how they took the initiative to specifically record their customers’ account balances at the time of the snapshot. It says they have no immediate plans to issue BCH, with immediate literally stressed in bold. It then says that “when” they integrate BCH, the coins will be issued. In short, their own statement is completely different from what you have written in both form and substance. Their statement, taken at face value, indicates that they are going to wait to see how the fork shakes out and that if BCH remains viable, they are ready, willing and able to do the work necessary to issue the coins.

    This invalidates your opinion regarding deposits and forks. Nitro just doesn’t agree with you and has never indicated they have thought of it in anything like that manner.

    Who is asking nitro to “reorganize” their business? I don’t think you have a clear understanding of how this technology works. There is no reorganization necessary. The exchanges that have issued or have pledged to issue BCH have not “reorganized” their businesses.

    No one is saying Nitro has to reorganize their business and no one wants to be unfair with them. I didn’t go into it here, but in my bitcointalk post I wrote that I believe Nitro should cover their own costs at the expense of their depositors. They could take a flat fee and not issue the coins at the actual 1:1 ratio. They could implement bch betting and impose a rollover. No worries, we are not talking about Bitcoin Diamond here, we are talking about many millions of dollars.

    What I do think is reasonable to demand from Nitro is a follow up to their statement. Do you think this is unreasonable? It’s four months later and I would like to know if there has been any internal discussion or planning with regards to BCH. Is anything in the works? Still evaluating? Have they changed their mind? I’m one customer who appreciated the August statement but who would like to have an update.

    Lastly, you spoke of the onus being on the customer for withdrawing before forks. After my experience with BCH I realized that it’s problematic to keep a balance on deposit with Nitro (as an aside, I doubt they want their customers to think of it the way your post indicates they should - that would be terrible for business in two major ways). As a result, I withdrew the bulk of my coins 16 hours before the BTG snapshot. 24 hours later, my coins had not arrived and I knew I was screwed. I then posted about it on bitcointalk and 4 hours later my coins arrived.

    Do you believe that customers should withdraw their coins from Nitrogensports.eu days in advance of a fork? What time frame is reasonable? Should 16 hours have been enough or was that my fault?

  20. #20
    KGambler
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    Quote Originally Posted by raiders72001 View Post
    I'm not sure about BCH but where do we draw the line? There's diamond, gold, cash, super, platinum. Upcoming uranium, cash plus, silver and more. Some will have airdrops. Anyone can create a fork.

    We don't know if BTC books convert to cash or not. Fiat books may hold some of our bitcoin transfers in bitcoin. My feeling is that it's not incumbent upon a book to support forks.

    If a book puts our money in a bank, we aren't entitled to the interest.

    1. “Where do we draw the line?” is a fair point. In this case, we are talking about tens of millions of dollars at the least. I think it’s way beyond any reasonable line, which is why the industries that handle BTC deposits have all issued or pledged to issue BCH.

    2. With Nitro, we do “know” that they keep the BTC in storage and do not convert to fiat. That is what they tell customers.

    Now this brings up two interesting points. If they are lying and in fact do not have the BTC that has been deposited, this is a major, major problem. Given BTC’s recent spectacular run up, this would mean Nitro is insolvent, which is why any sports betting watchdog should be all over this issue. Warning bells should be ringing.

    Any business whose liabilities (and deposits are liabilities) outweigh their assets is insolvent. They cannot make their depositors whole even if they wanted to. It becomes a MTgox situation. I hope you realize the ramifications of inferring that Nitro is lying and that they have converted BTC deposits to fiat at far lower than the current nose bleed rates. Again, a reticence to even talk about BCH since the August statement should be see as a warning klaxon. They may indeed have been converting to fiat and are now completely insolvent, unable to pay out the deposits they have on file. It’s suspicious they seem unable to issue BCH.

    The other interesting point is that not honoring major forks just does not seem like a viable business practice for a BTC book. Could you imagine what is going to happen when the Segwit2x fork is scheduled? So everyone should withdraw all of their coins from Nitro? Nitro will be able to pay everyone out in a timely manner? They will take the bulk of their BTC out of cold storage and pay it out in time? It will be a disaster for them even if they are solvent. And if it is as you suggested and they have been converting any significant portion of btc to fiat, they are in fact insolvent and won’t be able to pay out the btc owed to the withdrawers.

    This is a very serious issue and SBR should be seeking clarification. I get the feeling SBR just hasn’t thought about it much yet.

  21. #21
    Optional
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGambler View Post


    Wait, who spent money? Did I post in the wrong thread?

    As evo just pointed out, having an asset or currency on deposit is not in any way, shape, or form “spending” it.
    No need to argue further as we are diametrically opposed on that point.

    You deposit your money at a bookmaker it is spent as far as I am concerned.

    It's not on deposit at a bank or exchange. It's spent with a commitment to bet it at least once (at most books)


    You have personal responsibility for what you do with your funds.

    If you want to collect alt coins, YOU need to place them in a wallet you control before any fork. Not cry that some other type of business should change the way they operate to satisfy you every time some new group forks another coin off.


    All that said, I do think Nitro probably made a nice windfall from Bitcoincash, and implied they would eventually support it and remit BCH to users. So they probably should do something for users in this case.

    If you want to come in here demanding you have some legal right to it, or are OWED anything, I'll argue that point with you though.
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  22. #22
    KGambler
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    Optional, there’s no point in arguing the merits of your position. Nitro themselves does not agree with your position, so it’s not relevant in this particular case.

    I did not say that they need to issue coins for any and all forks. Any idiot can fork off a meaningless coin. BCH is clearly a different scenario. Major early adopters and developers are involved and it has a huge market cap. Most every serious business that has BTC on deposit has issued BCH or committed to issuing it. To say we expect Nitro to make the kind of commitment that Trezor has made regarding forks is not fair.

    Regarding the rest of your post, we are in agreement.

  23. #23
    Optional
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGambler View Post


    Wait, who spent money? Did I post in the wrong thread?

    As evo just pointed out, having an asset or currency on deposit is not in any way, shape, or form “spending” it. Imagine going to a bank and trying to withdraw your own money and being told “no, you ‘spent’ it by depositing it here”.
    A bookmaker is not a bank.

    Obviously you dont "spend" money there.

    Quote Originally Posted by KGambler View Post
    Evo is also correct to point out that a far better analogy is a stock split or spin off, and we all know banks and brokerages don’t just laugh at their customers and keep $1000 per share spin offs and splits.
    Correct a bank or a licensed broker would not laugh.

    They are not a bookmaker. They are banks and stock brokers!

    We are talking about a bookmaker remember?

    Can you come up with a single analogy where any sort of similar retail business would be responsible for paying you on profits they earned from money you had spent there?

    Try to understand what a ridiculous premise that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by KGambler View Post
    Who is asking nitro to “reorganize” their business? I don’t think you have a clear understanding of how this technology works. There is no reorganization necessary. The exchanges that have issued or have pledged to issue BCH have not “reorganized” their businesses.
    You're arguing a lot of assumptions here.

    How do you know how they hold funds or manage risk?

    What if they happen to hold very little in bitcoin as part of their plan? And received very little BCH? Do they need to divulge their private business IP for you in that case to justify not handing over whatever it is you think you are owed?

    Where does this end about what is "owed" to you after you spend your money there?


    Quote Originally Posted by KGambler View Post
    What I do think is reasonable to demand from Nitro is a follow up to their statement. Do you think this is unreasonable? It’s four months later and I would like to know if there has been any internal discussion or planning with regards to BCH. Is anything in the works? Still evaluating? Have they changed their mind? I’m one customer who appreciated the August statement but who would like to have an update.
    There ya go. paragraphs of bluster all to get to the only point worth making.

    Why the hell hasn't Nitro done it or said more about it?!

    That's the ONLY relevant point you made in all that typing.

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  24. #24
    Optional
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGambler View Post
    Optional, there’s no point in arguing the merits of your position. Nitro themselves does not agree with your position, so it’s not relevant in this particular case.
    that assumption holds up about as well as all the rest.


    I'd bet dollars to donuts Nitro agree with me 100%. No matter what they end up doing.

    A tide of self entitled millenials demanding they are "owed" might be worth paying off, whatever is legally correct or not.


    Dont get me wrong. After their statement i hope they do follow through and pay. Something.

    If they do I cant wait for the arguments about how much is "owed" to fire up too.

    Whilst you are making a bunch if asumptions, try and put yourself in a books position and try to put together some guidelines about how much people are actually owed... is it total balance? Pending bets? Funds not rolled over yet? Only up to your deposit amount? Only the amount of BCH the book actually ended up with? What happens if they say they only received 50% of what you think you should get?
    Last edited by Optional; 12-13-17 at 07:56 AM.

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  25. #25
    jjgold
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    I get so confused with this NITRO BOOK

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  26. #26
    KGambler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    A bookmaker is not a bank.
    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    Obviously you dont "spend" money there.
    You do not spend money at a bank, nor do you spend money when you keep funds on deposit with a bookmaker. That is the point. The bookmakers all agree with me, so I am not sure why we are even arguing this. There is not an online book that would state what you have stated. For an SBR moderator to not understand this is frankly shocking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    Correct a bank or a licensed broker would not laugh.
    They are not a bookmaker. They are banks and stock brokers!
    The issue was which was a better analogy; "spending" the money when you deposit to nitro or comparing the situation to a stock spin off? It's clear which is a better analogy. It's not close and no one reasonable would contest the issue. No one said it was anything other than an anaolgy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    Can you come up with a single analogy where any sort of similar retail business would be responsible for paying you on profits they earned from money you had spent there?
    Try to understand what a ridiculous premise that is.
    I am confused. Are we talking about points of law here? It's an offshore, illegal, crypto currency book. I have zero interest in discussing what their legal responsibilities are. Morally, I think they are obligated to clearly communicate with their customers and to be transparent in their behavior. You yourself now agree that based upon their August communication they need to do something here.

    Furthermore, in this thread it is stated that Fairlay paid out BCH at a 1:1 ratio, so I didn't need to do much digging. Seals with Clubs, an online crypto poker site, also paid out BCH for BTC on deposit.

    Do you still want me to go ahead and dig up examples of similar behavior from other, unrelated industries?


    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    You're arguing a lot of assumptions here.
    How do you know how they hold funds or manage risk?
    What if they happen to hold very little in bitcoin as part of their plan? And received very little BCH?


    Here you argue, without realizing it, that Nitro is insolvent. This is such an important point that I will be making a thread about it when I have the time. I do agree with you that it is a distinct possibility that Nitro is acting like this because they are insolvent. I will break it down for you...

    Let's say I loaned you 100 BTC in January. Maybe the value was like $380 per coin. Let's say in Februrary, when BTC hit a new all time high, you sold at $1200 in order to buy something nice for yourself. Sure you still owed me 100 BTC but you figured it's at an all time high, you have a good job, even in the unlikely event it doubles you will be able to make good. Now in December I ask for my 100 BTC back. 100 BTC is worth $1.75M dollars. You are in the hole $1,630,000 and are hopelessly insolvent.

    Now do you see why your theory that Nitro has not sequestered customer BTC deposits means that they are hopelessly insolvent? The price of bitcoin has increased like 50 fold since January. THIS MEANS THAT IF, LIKE FULL TILT POKER, THEY DO NOT SEQUESTER CUSTOMER FUNDS, THEY ARE HOPELESSLY INSOLVENT. It is an inescapable conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    Where does this end about what is "owed" to you after you spend your money there?


    It is still hard for me to believe that an SBR moderator would keep referring to depositing money with a sportsbook as "spending" it. I realize SBR is a reluctant watchdog at best, but this is ridiculous.


    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    There ya go. paragraphs of bluster all to get to the only point worth making.
    Why the hell hasn't Nitro done it or said more about it?!
    That's the ONLY relevant point you made in all that typing.


    There is no bluster, only reason and logic. It seems that, in the end, I have convinced even you that Nitro's behavior is fishy.
    Last edited by KGambler; 12-15-17 at 06:22 AM.

  27. #27
    KGambler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    that assumption holds up about as well as all the rest.
    I'd bet dollars to donuts Nitro agree with me 100%. No matter what they end up doing.
    It is not an assumption. It is based upon Nitro's own communications on the matter. There is no guesswork involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    A tide of self entitled millenials demanding they are "owed" might be worth paying off, whatever is legally correct or not.
    "Legally?" Are you joking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    Dont get me wrong. After their statement i hope they do follow through and pay. Something.
    We agree that their statement strongly implied that it was only a matter of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    Whilst you are making a bunch if asumptions, try and put yourself in a books position and try to put together some guidelines about how much people are actually owed... is it total balance? Pending bets? Funds not rolled over yet? Only up to your deposit amount? Only the amount of BCH the book actually ended up with? What happens if they say they only received 50% of what you think you should get?
    If they only received 50% of the BCH they were supposed to, it means they have liabilities in the tens of millions of dollars and Nitro is insolvent. See above.

  28. #28
    Optional
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGambler View Post
    I have zero interest in discussing what their legal responsibilities are. Morally, I think they are obligated to clearly communicate with their customers and to be transparent in their behavior. You yourself now agree that based upon their August communication they need to do something here.
    If it was so obviously the correct "moral" interpretation, why can you not cite a legal precedent for it? Surely the law attempts to follow moral standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by KGambler View Post
    Furthermore, in this thread it is stated that Fairlay paid out BCH at a 1:1 ratio, so I didn't need to do much digging. Seals with Clubs, an online crypto poker site, also paid out BCH for BTC on deposit.

    Do you still want me to go ahead and dig up examples of similar behavior from other, unrelated industries?

    As discussed before. Fairlay is not a bookmaker but an exchange.

    The big difference is that the bitcoin to cover every bet made and layed is sitting there in an account.

    It's a very simple calculation there and a different relationship than at a bookmaker. More like a forex exchange in terms of similarity.

    That said. Kudos should go to Fairlay for acting so fast and fairly without any stalling.



    Try and answer these questions, just as an exercise for yourself. It might help you gain some understanding of why it's not a simple matter when it comes to a bookmaker.

    put yourself in a books position and try to put together some guidelines about how much people are actually owed... is it total balance? Pending bets? Funds not rolled over yet? Only up to your deposit amount? Only the amount of BCH the book actually ended up with? What happens if they say they only received 50% of what you think you should get?
    And add to that, if they set a precedent with BCH, do they now have to make provision for every secondary coin that forks off? You may not think so, but what if six Bitcoin Uranium supporters turn up here next week and start demanding they are "owed" too? Based on books having remitted BCH. Sounds reasonable in that light eh? But is reasonable? Why shouldn't bookmakers be responsible for every forked coin if they are responsible for BCH?


    As far as the insolvency stuff. Really not sure how you extrapolate me saying they may not hold all funds in Bitcoin to mean they are insolvent. But happy to agree to disagree on all that.


    I do think they need to address the issue, soon, given their previous announcement.

    And I do expect they will actually remit some amount of BCH to users at some stage.

    But that doesn't change my opinion on their basic responsibilities here. If they pay less than people expect they will cop a round of attacks, for what I would see as basically doing more than is required. No wonder they are stalling given the catch22 situation when you think about it.

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  29. #29
    Optional
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGambler View Post
    If they only received 50% of the BCH they were supposed to, it means they have liabilities in the tens of millions of dollars and Nitro is insolvent. See above.
    OH, that's what you meant!

    Well yeah... IF your opinion about them owing at all is valid.


    But let's take your premise and again put yourself in the books position.

    Putting aside exactly how you think what is "owed" should be calculated. Let's say they keep all but the cash flow amount of bitcoin they need in some other form and did end up with 50% of whatever figure you say they owe.


    Put yourself in the book position again. Remembering how "what might happen" the situation was at the time. No one knew for sure.

    Did you have anything to do with this fork?

    Does your terms or public words before this imply you consider yourself some sort of bank or brokerage account where share splits or similar would be paid to users?

    Did you go out of your way to advise users to remove funds from your book if they wanted the new coin?

    Should you have to expose your private business financing setup to users to try to appease them you really only got 50% of what they want?

    Would you feel liable to pay out these "tens of millions" you say is enough to send them insolvent?

    Given the choice this sets up is to end the business, do you think it is clear enough that you morally or legally owe this money you did not receive or ever promise to be responsible for?

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  30. #30
    KGambler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    If it was so obviously the correct "moral" interpretation, why can you not cite a legal precedent for it? Surely the law attempts to follow moral standards.
    Why would I spend a lot of time looking for "legal precedents" when we are talking about a brand new technology, not to mention an illegal, black market industry? I cited a BTC denominated sports betting exchange and a BTC denominated poker site that both paid out BCH. I've also already cited that all of the major crypto exchanges have either paid out BCH or promised to do so by a specific date. Why would I now waste hours combing for unrelated "legal precedents" from the past?


    The big difference is that the bitcoin to cover every bet made and layed is sitting there in an account.
    It's a very simple calculation there and a different relationship than at a bookmaker. More like a forex exchange in terms of similarity.
    Nitro is supposed to have the customers' funds sequestered and held in BTC. If they don't, they are essentially BetIslands/Full Tilt/mtGox/WSEX. If Nitro has converted any significant portion of btc deposits to fiat, it is an inescapable conclusion that they are now hopelessly insolvent.

    Every deposit is a liability, a liability denominated in BTC. BTC is up 50 fold against USD in less than a year. If they do not keep deposits in BTC (going by memory, they claim to do so and that the bulk is kept in cold storage), they are insolvent. It's really simple.

    And add to that, if they set a precedent with BCH, do they now have to make provision for every secondary coin that forks off? You may not think so, but what if six Bitcoin Uranium supporters turn up here next week and start demanding they are "owed" too? Based on books having remitted BCH. Sounds reasonable in that light eh? But is reasonable? Why shouldn't bookmakers be responsible for every forked coin if they are responsible for BCH?
    This has already been addressed. BCH is a fork carried out by major early adopters, miners and actual bitcoin developers. It has the 4th largest market cap of any coin (behind only BTC, ethereum and ripple). Anyone can fork the chain, but this particular fork is not really relevant when discussing "where does it end?"

    As far as the insolvency stuff. Really not sure how you extrapolate me saying they may not hold all funds in Bitcoin to mean they are insolvent. But happy to agree to disagree on all that.
    For every coin that they've converted to fiat before December 2017 , they will have an unfunded liability of from $10,000 to $17,000. FOR EVERY COIN. I cannot make this point any simpler for you.

  31. #31
    KGambler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    OH, that's what you meant!
    Well yeah... IF your opinion about them owing at all is valid.
    No, you did not understand the reasoning I put forward. This has nothing to do with BCH or owing or not owing BCH. It has to do with owing BTC (bitcoin). Look at it this way - if their customers have 4,000 BTC on deposit but Nitro is only actually holding 2,000 BTC, then they have $35,000,000.00 of unfunded liability. You get that right? So if they only received 50% of the BCH of what they "should have", it is a mtGox situation and it's only a matter of time until it all blows up (probably when the next major fork occurs, which is something I will address in a future thread).

    SBR should be seeking a statement from Nitro on whether or not they hold all deposits in BTC without converting to fiat.

  32. #32
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    Optional, it seems clear you don't understand how BTC forks work. Nitro claims to hold the bulk of their customers' deposits in cold storage. There is no way they could only get 50% of the BCH unless they don't actually have the BTC.

  33. #33
    hot cuisine
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    Sounds like this Optional guy is working for Nitro!

    Nitrogen, give us our penetrating Bitcoin Cash!!!
    Nomination(s):
    This post was nominated 1 time . To view the nominated thread please click here. People who nominated: barnstorm

  34. #34
    KGambler
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    I would advise withdrawing all of your coins stored on Nitro ASAP. There is a fork coming tomorrow. It's a segwit2x fork to make transactions faster and cheaper and will probably be pretty popular.

    Over on Bitcointalk, I was finally able to get an answer as to whether or not they sequester their client's funds 100% in BTC. They do not. They are probably bust. If they converted any significant portion of BTC deposits to fiat, they cannot be solvent. The math is simple.

    I expect that the next time there is a major fork, they will be hit by a wave of withdrawal requests and it will all come crashing down. This fork tomorrow could be considered a serious one but was not at all well publicized so I would expect them to be able to keep the charade going for now.

    I can tell you from bitter experience that they will delay a withdrawal request for about 24 hours if a fork snapshot is coming. I would not wait.

  35. #35
    barnstorm
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    Any more recent developments? I keep getting stonewalled by Nitrogen Support. I have to agree with KGambler. They probably didn't keep our money in BTC and therefore don't have enough BCH to pay it out. They only posted the notice about withdrawing your funds before the fork on the Blog, rather than sending everyone an email, probably to limit the number of folks withdrawing their funds. What Book would want everyone to withdraw their funds? But that left them with the problem of having too many customers with BTC in their accounts and expecting and now demanding BCH. They can only hope BCH goes to zero. It's possible. I think Nitrogen may be good folks who just made a blunder and now they are looking for a way out. I wouldn't hold much money with them.

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