You should be complaining to FIBA for designing this nonsense: they basically have two sets of rules for each leg - OT is not possible in the first leg and even a draw may occur, whereas the second leg - everything is possible.
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I think that from your first post when you mentioned the bet stake 106.04 some of the users already realised that you are an arber. Even Pinnacle knows what you do. Always they are helpful for arbers because their business model requires arbers. Don't be agressive to Pinnacle like this even though you lost there 450 euros. I'm sure you earned thousands euros just because of the Pinnacle on your arbing way. Maybe it will take minimum 150 arb bets to conpensate your loss but anyway you will be able to do it only with Pinnacle.Comment -
LOL At the ways that these offshore places find to cheat people! He bet the money-line, then won
the game by 2 points, but they found a way to cheat him out of it! Because of the way they had to find
the winner of the series! LOL All a manager has to do is LOOK at the circumstances and see that the money line bet
won, and then there was an added period to determine the winner of the series! But instead, they choose to cheat,
and steal somebody's winnings instead of paying! I have no idea why these places EVER pay out a single bet!
Why not just cheat the dogshit out of every damn bet that anybody ever makes? Nobody can do anything about it!Comment -
OK then if they use that, then they should have made BOTH games one bet and not paid out on the FIRST game!
If they paid out bets on the winner of the first game of the series, then your point is moot
and they have to pay the winner of the 2nd game too! The fact that the second game was an individual bet
unto itself plainly shows that they were counting both games as individual bets, and not a series bet!
Easy as pie unless they are trying to cheat!Comment -
Arbers of all people know that this is all part of the game. You should have read the rules of both books more carefully as WillHill and Pinny differ. Pinny clearly says OT is included, WillHill explicitly states in the case of an OT via 2nd leg tie, OT will not count. Seems pretty cut and dry.Comment -
We aren't talking about a book stealing a player's money here. We're talking about a game which presumably has bettors taking positions on both sides. In a situation like this, clearly documented rules ARE fair. What alternative do you suggest? That they grade according to rules which aren't on their books? That would be a travesty, and if you had taken a position on the opposite side as OP, you would be absolutely livid.
The revelation that OP lost money on this due to arbing makes me even less sympathetic. Don't get me wrong - I have absolutely nothing against arbers. At the end of the day, they are just trying to take advantage of market inefficiencies, just as all of us are, just in a different manner. But any arber should know that this is a cost of doing that particular type of business. If you play two books against each other, and those books don't have the exact same rules for that sport, you could unexpectedly get caught taking a big loss when the two books (justifiably) rule differently. OP took a risk and lost.Last edited by DontTailMe; 09-23-19, 10:26 PM.Comment -
I haven't read the replies, only the OP so sorry if I'm highlighting something that has already been posted.
The bet has been settled correctly - you bet the ML - normally [as with pinny as well], ML almost always includes any OT - and pinny even state this in their rules.
You are unlucky that due to the first leg there was overtime, but the rules are clear and the bet was settled correctly.
Think of it like this: When you bet an NFL Moneyline, if your team loses in overtime, you lost the bet - this is the exact same scenario.
I don't think you have anyone to complain to, I think you simply aren't right, just very unlucky. sorry for your loss nonetheless.
Ps: A Similar example would be the following: You bet an NBA game say team A + 2,5pts - if games overtime and they lose by 5 points in overtime, you can't complain that in the first place they drew the game. If you are a 'professional arber' you should clearly be aware of this...Last edited by d741256198; 09-23-19, 09:27 PM.Comment -
LOL Yeah a lot of you seemed to not understand the OP's post! Because you keep talking about and posting
about the "overtime rules" of the sports-book. But the game did not tie and go into overtime!
He had a moneyline bet and his team WON THE GAME BY 2 POINTS! If you bet an NBA game, or an NFL
game, and one team WINS THE GAME BY TWO POINTS, THEN IT WOULDN'T GO INTO OVERTIME!
The game was not tied and then went to overtime!! HIS TEAM WON THE GAME BY 2 POINTS!
But because it was a 2 game series, and the other team had won the 1st game of the series by 2 points,
then they played extra time to decide who would advance!! They didn't hold the bets after the first game was
won by 2 points and say: "Wait until the 2nd game is played"! They graded the game and paid the winners!
If you pay the first game as a money line winner then you pay the second game moneyline winner too!
Otherwise the bet would be a SERIES bet, and It was not! It was a moneyline bet and they WON the game by 2 points.
Just like the other team won the 1st game by 2 points and they graded it and paid it, his team WON the 2nd game
by 2 points! So therefore he won the money line bet! So they should grade it and pay it.
They played the extra time to decide who would advance after his team had already won the 2nd game by 2 points!
Not because the game tied and needed overtime!
I truly believe if the guy will talk to a manager and explain it this way, then they will pay him! JUST like they paid the
moneyline winners of the first game!!
Last edited by JoeCool20; 09-24-19, 01:51 AM.Comment -
Tbf, it would be a nice gesture of goodwill to settle the bet as a winner and I understand where you are coming from, but strictly going by the rule book, it's a [very unlucky] losing bet.LOL Yeah a lot of you seemed to not understand the OP's post!
He had a moneyline bet and his team WON THE GAME BY 2 POINTS! If you bet an NBA game or any other
game, and one team WON THE GAME BY TWO POINTS, THEN IT WOULDN'T GO INTO OVERTIME!
The game was not tied and then went to overtime!! HIS TEAM WON THE GAME BY 2 POINTS!
But because it was a 2 game series, and the other team had won the 1st game of the series by 2 points,
then they played extra time to decide who would advance!! They didn't hold the bets after the first game was
won by 2 points and say: "Wait until the 2nd game is played"! They graded the game and paid the winners!
If you pay the first game as a money line winner then you pay the second game moneyline winner too!
Otherwise the bet would be a SERIES bet, and It was not! It was a moneyline bet and they WON the game by 2 points.
Just like the other team won the 1st game by 2 points and they graded it and paid it!
Then they played extra time to decide who would advance!
I truly believe if the guy will talk to a manager and explain it this way, then they will pay him! JUST like they paid the
moneyline winners of the first game!!
Your explanation as to why he should be paid is wrong though; He bet the Moneyline [who will win the game?] - the game went overtime, due to FIBA's rules and they LOST the game, so in essence, the bet is a losing one. Although I doubt Pinnacle will be willing to pay both sides of the market, as a good will gesture, because it would create a precedence. What you are saying [he should be paid] would mean that Pinny would lose BOTH sides of the market - or are you saying the people who bet ML on the home team should be losing their bet?
Just as you could argue that if you bet an NFL game away team +2,5 AH and they lose OT, you can say "but they tied the game in regulation, my bet is a winner!" - this is a similar scenario, except the regulation time here wasn't a draw, hence why I said it's a very unlucky losing bet.Last edited by d741256198; 09-24-19, 01:32 AM.Comment -
LOL Man I don't want to be rude, or argue, because they can cheat anybody they want any day they want to cheat!
But I SWEAR it is like you did not even read my post! How many times are you going to state the "rules of overtime"?? This game did not tie in regulation and go into an overtime as a result of a tie!! One side won the game by 2 points!
And you just used ANOTHER example of a spread bet on an NFL game that TIED and then went into overtime!!
Did you read what I said at all? THIS GAME DID NOT TIE IN REGULATION LIKE THE EXAMPLE YOU JUST GAVE!!
HE IS NOT SAYING "I HAD 2.5 POINTS AND I TIED IN REGULATION SO I WON"!! It has nothing to do with points!
HE HAD A MONEYLINE BET AND HE IS SAYING "I WON THE GAME BY TWO POINTS! AND I WANT TO GET PAID!"
Do you know the difference in a spread bet and a moneyline bet? On a moneyline bet, you don't add or subtract points! You either WIN the game and win the bet or you lose the game and lose the bet! AND HE WON THE GAME BY TWO POINTS!!
The game did not tie and then go into overtime as a result of a tie! He won the game by two points, so he wins the moneyline bet! And yes of course the other team loses! I never said they should "pay both sides"! One side won by 2 points, and the other side lost, THEN They had an extra period to see who advanced! This bet was not a "Who advances" bet. It was a moneyline bet, and he won the game by two points!! So he should get paid!
You can't have a moneyline bet and then not pay off on the team that wins by two points!! They paid the first game when that team won by 2 points! You have to pay the second game the same way. Otherwise the bet should have said: "Even though you are making a money line bet, you really have to win the game by more than 2 points." Which is just as absurd and ridiculous as it reads! LOL Because that would make it a spread bet, not a money line bet!Last edited by JoeCool20; 09-24-19, 02:37 AM.Comment -
You can't tell me that you think pinnacle put this bet out as a moneyline bet KNOWING that one team could win the
game by 2 points, but not really win the moneyline bet! LOL That doesn't make sense and you know they didn't do that!
The bet didn't say: "This is a moneyline bet UNLESS you win by exactly 2 points, then it really isn't a moneyline bet
anymore, and it suddenly turns into a 'who advances' bet!" LOL That would be ridiculous!
It is either a "who advances" bet or a moneyline bet. And this was a moneyline bet. There is no such
moneyline bet that states you ONLY win if your team wins by a number other than 2 points in regulation!! LOL
You can't put out a moneyline bet and then NOT PAY the team that won the game by 2 points! It doesn't make sense!
I can put it another way, just let me know ANYTIME that you can find a moneyline bet that I can take where
I can LOSE the game by 2 points at the end of regulation, but I STILL have a chance to win my moneyline bet,
because they are going to play extra time even though one team lost by 2 points in regulation!!!
And I will bet $10 grand on it in a heartbeat! If you find that bet, it will be an accident or a mistake!
Because one side would be getting 2 free points on a moneyline bet!
Last edited by JoeCool20; 09-24-19, 03:09 AM.Comment -
Pinnacle have always been quirky when unususal situations occur. I remember years ago an aussie rules game tied after overtime, but due to some match rule one team was declared the winner.
My bet was on the eventual losing team, and according to Pinnys rules my bet should have lost as bets on ML are in the event of a tie, including OT on the team progressing, but they pushed the bet resulting in a glorious result of high 4 figures. That was over 10 years ago still remember it like it was yesterday.
My point being like I said in a previous post, most of their staff do not understand the exact way sports competitions are run, and every possible outcome, and in rare situations they misgrade bets and completely think they are correct and will not change the grading.
Obviously with my bet I didnt contact them lol!!!!Comment -
There is nothing quirky about this ruling. The rules are there to be read for everybody...I can't understand why this is so difficult. Yes, it sucks if you are the OP but the rules are written and accessible for everyone. If the situation was reversed and OP had bet on the other side, he would be thrilled and happy because he had not read these rules and won a "losing" bet...do you think he would be complaining about it if that had happened? It sucks, but as mentioned before, it's part of the game. Read the rules, learn from the experience and move on. Nothing difficult about it. Does the rule suck in this case? Yes, but it was there so there is nothing to argue about.
Same goes for tennis games, if the game doesn't finish and a player retires your bet is voided even if you had bet on a set handicap that had already "won". It's how Pinnacle operates and the rules are there for a reason, they are written because of their business model. They can't pay out part of a market and void the other part, it would result in a loss for them every time and they operate on razor thin margins. Pinnacle is always fair and the best bookie in the world IMHO, use them and accept the rules even if they go against you. If you can't accept that, don't use them.Comment -
When players who bet on the home team presumably were surprised that they won their bet and players who bet on the away team presumably were surprised that they lost their bet, doesn't that mean that Pinnacle should change or specify the rule? A rule that surprises both parties is a shitty rule.
The fact that Pinnacle changed the settlement from LOSS to WON to LOSS shows that they were not so sure either about how to apply this rule.
It's definitely a grey area and not that clear as you say and Pinnacle would be well-advised to specify the rule and/or adapt the rule of William Hill because their rule is more common and intuitive for players. This would avoid disputes like these in the future.Comment -
This is such a pointless argument you are trying to sell, Im really dying hahahaa
Its like you are saying: Well that guy lost his wallet and 500 dollars in it, and he is fckd up.
And than you say, well, what if situation is reversed and he found 500 dollars, he would be thrilled and happy, and he would not complaint? No shit Sherlock.
Funny thing is, yesterday pinnacle has payed me a loosing bet on ice hockey, on KHL.
I got 100 euros for that, and they soon realized that mistake and took that money from my balance and set my bet as loosing one.
And I dont see any problem in that... I should lose that anyway.
Thats exactly how I think everyone would feel if pinnacle changed the status of their moneyline bet on home team, from winning to loosing.
Im sure 99.9% of them did not expect to win that bet after they saw what happened in regular time.
As im sure none of you had a clue about this kind of situations until I presented my case...Last edited by opedja95; 09-24-19, 04:40 AM.Comment -
I agree the rule should be changed, but the grading in this case is crystal clear according to the existing rules. There would definitely have been a vigilant customer out there rightfully fighting the grading if his bet had been graded wrongly according to the written rules, so there is nothing else they could have done in this case.Comment -
Nope, if I had gotten lucky and "accidently" had won a bet I thought I had lost I would be extremely pissed off if they had regraded it to a loss any differently than their rules stipulate. Written rules take precedent over "feelings and doing what should have been done" every time. This case is clear, they should change the rule in the future.Comment -
I really cant see how a moneyline bet, for that game and not the series, is not settled at normal time as the team won that match.
The fact they went into overtime purely to decide the series is irrelevant to that bet.Comment -
The Rules are clear. OT counts. If we like the rules or if they are unfair is irrelevant. The rules are published on their page and everyone can read them. Specially professionals should do their homework.
It is also irrelevant the fact that they have changed from loss to won and back to loss. Happening with me on weekly basis with regular bets.
Pinnacle cant grade this differently than they have. Imagine all the bettors on the other side. Unlike the OP they could really complain to Pin showing on the TCs.Comment -
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LOL Who the hell would "fight" for their losing bet if they had the moneyline and they lost the
game in regulation by 2 points? LOL
What would they do? Say: "I KNOW I had a moneyline bet, and I KNOW I lost by 2 points in regulation,
but I want it to be a winner because they played extra time to see who advanced."
Come on man! The game was won by 2 points in regulation! So there is a CLEAR moneyline winner and loser!
Who the fuk cares if they played for 5 more hours AFTER the game was WON IN REGULATION!
LOL Some of you keep citing the "rules of overtime"!! But for the TENTH TIME, the game did not tie and go into
overtime! There was a clear winner in regulation!
One team won the game by 2 points and the other team lost by 2 points!!
Then they played extra time to see who would advance to the next game!!Last edited by JoeCool20; 09-24-19, 03:23 PM.Comment -
Pinnacle says clearly what happens with a ML bet, if a basketball game goes to ANY overtime. And that is enough.LOL Does pinnacle say what happens if you bet a MONEYLINE bet and the game ends with you winning by 2 points!
Are these rules fair or optimal, that is another topic.Comment -
loLComment -
LOL STOP SAYING "OVERTIME"!!
THE GAME DID NOT GO INTO OVERTIME! THE GAME WAS WON BY 2 POINTS
IN REGULATION! AND THEN THEY PLAYED MORE TO SEE WHO ADVANCED TO THE NEXT ROUND!
It was a mistake by pinnacle to offer a moneyline bet and then not pay who clearly won the game by 2 points!
If they knew what they had done then the bet would have said: "Even though we are saying this is a moneyline bet,
please be advised, that if you happen to win the game in regulation by exactly 2 points, then you really don't win yet!"
LOL Or how about this: "Even though we are saying this is a moneyline bet, please be advised that you have
to win this bet in regulation by SOME OTHER margin than 2 points, or you really didn't win yet!"
LOL Any amount of common sense can see that it was a mistake by pinnacle!! Pinnacle didn't knowingly offer
a moneyline bet that "really didn't win yet" if it won by exactly 2 points in regulation! And you know this!Comment -
You can call it pancake, if you want.LOL STOP SAYING "OVERTIME"!!
Comment -
As a professional, you should be reading the rules before you bet - especially since you claim to be a professional arb, completely understanding the rules to how your bets are made would be a key thing to know - as a professional.
Condescending rants and messages will not help your situation here.Comment -
I understand the fact that Pinnacle actually changed ML into To Qualify. Because in US this cant happen, with series system, but FIBA is counting points not wins.a moneyline bet that "really didn't win yet" if it won by exactly 2 points in regulation! And you know this!
To avoid the situations like with OP, Pinnacle should address this with special rule saying that OT will not count in this cases. But in the moment, without that special rules, they have settled the situation according to their rules.Comment -
They are not incorrect, it's just a quirk in the rules. Basketball 2leg playoff system isn't as defined as soccer is for gambling purposes, so we run into these issues. That's why I always look at the wager definitions before I make a bet on a sport i don't normally bet with a book.Comment -
I agree but even the match report on the official site says "overtime": http://www.championsleague.basketbal...day-2-round-up
So I think it's hard to argue with Pinnacle on that one.
Nevertheless this rule has to be changed/specified for sureComment -
JoeCool is out to lunch. It's the same if you have a total bet in a soccer match with two legs and they play into extra time (not added time) to determine a winner. When a team scores in extra time, that goal counts towards the total for Pinnacle (but not for some other sites like WillHill).
Example:
Real Madrid vs. Manchester United (UEFA)
First leg: Real Madrid 2-1
Second leg: Man U 2-1
They play extra time because the overall match is tied 3-3 even though the second leg was only 2-1. This "overtime" counts for Pinnacle. So if you had an O/U of 3.5 and either team scored in extra time, unders would lose because the final score would be 3-1 or 2-2 for a total of 4 goals. OP should know this as they're an arber and so rule knowledge is paramount to winning. I would have also made some test bets for a couple bucks to determine if they even follow their own rules. Once you have precedence for how they handle different nuanced outcomes, you can go from there confidently.Comment -
LOL No he is saying that the guy didn't win his moneyline bet because he won the game by EXACTLY 2 points!
If he had won the game by ONE POINT, or ANY OTHER amount of points than 2 points, then he would have won!
And yes it is ridiculous of him to say that! LOL
"You didn't win your moneyline bet because you won the game by 2 points! ANY OTHER win EXCEPT by 2 points
and you would have won." LOL He is just being obtuse with that and not serious! I hope!Comment
