BetCRIS deleting wagers when market moves against them

[4nic8ing]

It is obvious they don't want to discuss this blunder anymore and are now looking for prime spots to stick heads in the sand.

[Optional]

I guess betcris did not mean to offer that price and that is reason enough for SBR to accept the cancellation. When SIA cancels bets next time because they did not mean to have arbitrage bets and they cancel it within 5 minutes it is ok (even we do not know it was really cancelled so fast, we have to take bookies word for it)

Geebus Pj. Has it really taken you this long to just to get that bolded part? Yes, if any book makes an input error they can cancel it. It has been explained multiple times! You should accept it too (as the OP has), as it is correct fair industry standard.

And no, books cant cancel simply because an arb appears against them. That's not an input error. But please do let us know if SIA or DSI or any other book you use cancels a bet calling it an error due to be an arb

Either you are the thickest SBR Founder poster by a country mile or you are just trolling at this point. Either way, choose your next move carefully if you wish to keep that prized status another day.

[pjesnik24]

What you do not understand optional is that it really does not matter if they wanted to offer it or not because it was not a bad line. There and worse bookies can use the same excuse whenever they want from now on
This is from SBRJustin videos, definition of bad line,while he was still working for SBR before he left for reason which might have been connected to betislands fiasco, which would mean that SBR's stand was the same/similar:
"general rule of thumb is if you can arb the position of 5-10%" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qSpeWeZG48)
Was it possible to arb the line for minimum 5%? That is all the proof we need.
I agree with birdman on "this is disgraceful"

I must also say WOW on threatening to cancel my prized status of SBR founder who was joining many sponsor books directly from your links for disagreeing, and no, I am not trolling, this is purely egoistic, I am trying to protect myself from these "bad" lines because you never know when I will hit such a bad line

[dhristov211]

While I agree with most of Dozer's post, which isn't common for me, I think it shows a lot about the operation if they can't eat a $5,000 half point on a NBA spread. I see this as the companies fault for either a bad trader or a bad process to allow a good trader to make this mistake. It's not the players fault for betting something they have an edge on.

Regardless for whose at fault let's look at some napkin math. Assuming the 14 has a 3.5% push rate (sbr half point calc) that would mean an edge of $175 on that bet. If this is something that BetCris really needs to go after and chase the player for I think they've got bigger problems than taking sharp action.

BOL out there guys

This is problem with sharp player not bad line. Why defend such book?

[evo34]

I am not trolling, this is purely egoistic, I am trying to protect myself from these "bad" lines because you never know when I will hit such a bad line

You'll know it's a bad line bc it will move exactly the opposite of the way it usually does when you hit it with $5k, and then no one else will follow the move. That's how you'll know. Then you can beat off for 7 hours, check your account and act shocked that your bet is missing. Post that while you have no way of knowing, you are nevertheless "pretty sure" the bet was deleted hours after an adverse line move and not minutes after it was submitted. SBR chaos will most likely ensue.

[evo34]

i do have to aqgree here.
Cris should eat their own error on that one -- that is *IF* it was an error.
ok, so i am still feeling my way thru this but if a guy throws down a large bet (5k) on -14 and that causes a book to move its line to -14.5, ok, i get that. but how does anyone know if maybe some guy (or 2) had at that very same moment bet heavily on the +14 underdog ?? surely people bet on the dogs too, yes?!? wouldnt that large underdog bet(s) at the same time have at least momentarily caused the line to DROP to -13.5 ?!??! im saying we don't know it was a human trader error (ie. "bad line"). maybe it wasnt!! maybe it was caused by a dog bet! maybe they saw the moves quickly turn onto the fav and wanted to cancel a wager by a pro bettor who they felt was getting too good of a deal (2 heavy bets at a cheap price on the fav) but they are covering it up by claiming it was a "bad line"

Yeah, this happens all the time!! I can't count the number of times I've max bet someone and they went 8 cents the other way immediately. Wait, I can. It's happened twice in 20 years. Both times, I somehow managed to resist the urge to re-bet the max and go twiddle my thumbs for seven hours, then check in on the bet and complain about it.

Bookmaker CS is dogshit. This is not a surprise to anyone. But if there is anyone who deserves to eat dogshit, it's the OP. Mr. "I'm not a shot-taker, but if one shows up on my screen, I'll take it".

[pjesnik24]

Yeah, this happens all the time!! I can't count the number of times I've max bet someone and they went 8 cents the other way immediately. Wait, I can. It's happened twice in 20 years.
".

that is some rain man stuff! knowing all your bets in 20 years and where the line moved and when and for how much, wow! So, you, after you made your bets in the last 20 years were refreshing pages and taking notes like crazy to see where the line moved EVERY single time to make that educated statement of "2 times in 20 years"?
However, because I bet with asian bookies (at first pointbet and then many others) who have much more advanced software (dynamic lines updating every 20-30 seconds) than US facing bookies I can see that this situation of betting a max and in next update odds moved against you happens more often then you think. I would not know the exact number of times it happened but in percentages I would say 5-10%

[pjesnik24]

People, just watch the video of SBR expert SBRJustin on youtube that I have posted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qSpeWeZG48 around 1.50 and see what was SBR's standpoint or at least one of the confirmed experts in the industry what a bad line is "if you can arb it 5-10%

[noyb]

have been posting/reading with sbr off and on for >10 years. must admit i feel very akward reading about dozer actually defending a void on a half point "obvious input error". wow, times must really be tough for you guys over there.

[pabonaparte]

In my limited experience this wager deserves immediate cancellation. The problem seems to be that OP was not aware (or sure) the bet would be cancelled so he may have placed other wagers with other bookmakers thinking (or hoping) his original bet with BetCris would stand. If this is the case I believe OP should have contacted BetCris before placing those other wagers to make certain.

None of what happened is the bookie's fault. Just my IMHO.

[4nic8ing]

Hey PJ,

They are obviously blinded by their affiliate sheet here and are just hoping all the dissenting comments cease so this thread just drifts into oblivion. It will be interesting to see when the below marginal books apply this tactic and just respond back to SBR that it was "Trader Error". Good luck proving it otherwise as I am sure the books will also say their DB Puncher was down for a few hours so any and all line info on line services is invalid as well.

Optional has probably never made a bet other than the SBR book for points. What other reason would he threaten your SBR Founder status when all you have done is make valid points about how bad their ruling is. He has no idea that $5k is absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things

Best of luck but I think it is a losing battle as SBR goes into "see no evil, hear no evil" mode.

[4nic8ing]

In my limited experience this wager deserves immediate cancellation. The problem seems to be that OP was not aware (or sure) the bet would be cancelled so he may have placed other wagers with other bookmakers thinking (or hoping) his original bet with BetCris would stand. If this is the case I believe OP should have contacted BetCris before placing those other wagers to make certain.

None of what happened is the bookie's fault. Just my IMHO.

OMG....really? Do you think wagering online is like going to the DMV? In your mind does every bettor take a number and just wait for it to be called before placing a bet? Have you ever wagered on something and had the line move against you right after? If not I guess you are the greatest gambler in the world and know where the market will go everytime. Do you have any idea how many different groups are out there wagering 100's of thousands of dollars on events?

[SBR Forum]

People, just watch the video of SBR expert SBRJustin on youtube that I have posted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qSpeWeZG48 around 1.50 and see what was SBR's standpoint or at least one of the confirmed experts in the industry what a bad line is "if you can arb it 5-10%

It was an obvious error to the player. The over 5% is a rule of thumb. Whenever a player makes a max limit bet and sees the odds get adjusted the wrong way, whether from an automove or trader input error, wagering again for the limit and taking advantage of the mistake will erode good faith and get the player flagged as a shot taker. The headline of this thread could not be more misleading.

[aylos84]

It was an obvious error to the player. Whenever a player makes a max limit bet and sees the odds get adjusted the wrong way, wagering again for the limit and taking advantage of the mistake will erode good faith and get the player flagged as a shot taker. The headline of this thread could not be more misleading.

I feel insulted by SBR here. The headline of this thread is misleading because of facts that have come to light after the thread was created. Feel free to change it to "BetCRIS cancels NBA bet 0.5 point off market due to bad line rule" The trader made a small trading error that was not big enough to be deemed a bad line. Because I was the original bettor I just happened to see it first. I'm sure that EVERY other poster here if they saw that CRIS was -13.5 when pinnacle was -14 -116 would have done the same thing.

If that line had been up another 15 seconds some other account would have bet it. Would that account have had their bet cancelled? If their bet had been cancelled what would the position of SBR be here?

[Optional]

C'mon Aylos.

I think you know it was not due to a "bad line rule" or about the margin of error. The trader made an error and went the wrong way and if it took someone to bet it before he realized, then whoever bet it first would have had the cancel.

If you really thought there was some chance it wasn't an error then I agree it would have been silly to not grab it but it appears you do know how things work and have to take some responsibility yourself for not checking the status. The way you bet you must have had things cancelled before? And you had to have thought it was a weird line move if nothing else.

I feel sorry for you personally but it's one of the risks of arbitrage. Not much in this world is really a guaranteed profit.

[pjesnik24]

C'mon Aylos.

I think you know it was not due to a "bad line rule" or about the margin of error. The trader made an error and went the wrong way and if it took someone to bet it before he realized, then whoever bet it first would have had the cancel.

If you really thought there was some chance it wasn't an error then I agree it would have been silly to not grab it but it appears you do know how things work and have to take some responsibility yourself for not checking the status. The way you bet you must have had things cancelled before? And you had to have thought it was a weird line move if nothing else.

I feel sorry for you personally but it's one of the risks of arbitrage. Not much in this world is really a guaranteed profit.

"I just called BetCRIS and was informed that they have the right to cancel any wager at any time if they believe if it is a bad line"

[smoke a bowl]

"I just called BetCRIS and was informed that they have the right to cancel any wager at any time if they believe if it is a bad line"

We've already established that customer service did a horrible job handling this.

[noyb]

then whoever bet it first would have had the cancel.

how was this someone who bet it first supposed to know the trader moved the wrong way on someone else's bet?

[mtneer1212]

Sorry, but this cancellation is a horrible precedent that basically validates voiding any wager at any time. On the flip side, I have called when I accidentally hit the under instead of the over or picked the wrong side and was told I could not change or cancel my wager because I confirmed the bet with a second click.

So this is one-sided and a horrible precedent.

[bettilimbroke999]

No matter what the books win....if you get a near worthless half point edge they cancel the bet as if its a bad line like they put +14 instead of -14....penetrate these shit scambooks that want to charge you outrageous fees to cashout in the unlikely event you win. Seriously what casino would cancel your wager if you got a half-point? What casino would charge you to cash your ticket?

penetrate THEM!

Half point is a bad line? I guess every line is bad then cause half the books differ by a half point

[Grivas_Digeni]

Sorry, but this cancellation is a horrible precedent that basically validates voiding any wager at any time. On the flip side, I have called when I accidentally hit the under instead of the over or picked the wrong side and was told I could not change or cancel my wager because I confirmed the bet with a second click.

So this is one-sided and a horrible precedent.

This makes sense. If the market is stable and the player is getting juiced, no changes are ever possible. If the market is on the move and the bookmaker doesn't have 100% control over the situation, then it's shot taking and bad lines all around. Things must be really tough at all these books taking 'hundreds of thousands in action' from those syndicates someone mentioned above.

[Grivas_Digeni]

Also, and I'm really not trying to play with fire here but just showing healthy curiosity (in case I will, one day, become the sort of a bettor who moves lines with max bets...)

In this argument, does it matter how much the line moved? Or just the direction of the move?

Would 0.25 or 1.5 point be *any* different, for the sake of the argument, than 0.5 in the 'wrong direction'? Would 0.5 on an NBA spread be any different from 0.5 on an NBA total (pushes are a lot more common for spreads than totals I believe)? I don't expect too much asking this but seriously... bad line just sounds like a lousy argument, unless it can be quantified.

And also, what happens if the max bets it... and it DOESN'T MOVE AT ALL? Can this also be deemed a software/trader mistake, a 'bad line' and thus be treated as cause for cancellation at the bookmaker's sole discretion?

[dirtdog52658]

Sorry, but this cancellation is a horrible precedent that basically validates voiding any wager at any time. On the flip side, I have called when I accidentally hit the under instead of the over or picked the wrong side and was told I could not change or cancel my wager because I confirmed the bet with a second click.

So this is one-sided and a horrible precedent.

I know they make it out like it matters who the player is, but it doesn't. I'm still in complete shock that SBR is standing behind this decision, the only person on this forum supporting the decision is a guy who works at Betcris, pretty obvious that people working here don't wager on a regular basis like the rest of us because they clearly don't have a clue. You call within minutes to delete a mistake you made and are not allowed, yet they go ahead and delete a play from a guy thats half a point off because they felt like it. Childish bookmaking at its finest.

[aylos84]

In this argument, does it matter how much the line moved? Or just the direction of the move?

Would 0.25 or 1.5 point be *any* different, for the sake of the argument, than 0.5 in the 'wrong direction'? Would 0.5 on an NBA spread be any different from 0.5 on an NBA total

And also, what happens if the max bets it... and it DOESN'T MOVE AT ALL? Can this also be deemed a software/trader mistake, a 'bad line' and thus be treated as cause for cancellation at the bookmaker's sole discretion?

I bet -14 and he went to -13.5 instead of -14.5 but the rest of the market was -14. A price 0.5 off 99% of the market obviously has to be a bet. If he went to -13 or worse it's a clear cancel. On a Total if I bet ov 195 and 194.5 and 194 are still clear bets. 193.5 is close and 193 is probably a cancel. The bad line rule is for them putting up -4.5 or +14.5 when they are supposed to be -14.5. Allowing any s@!t book to cancel a bet 0.5 from the market for trader error creates a very dangerous precedent. "Trader Error" and "Bad Line" are not the same thing.

It's ridiculous that a top tier book like CRIS even allows this thread to appear for what amounts to about $350 in equity. This would never happen at Pinnacle. When an account like mine calls or emails a complaint that should be immediately be forwarded for somebody senior to handle. Not a run of the mill answer from a CS operative. Having good customer service practices is just as important as having good traders, marketing, payout procedures e.t.c

If I have a complaint with Pinny, Cris, Greek e.t.c. as a courtesy I will call/ email first and then if unhappy with their decision ask permission to post about it here. You can see from my previous posts they tend to generate mixed opinions.

[aylos84]

The only person on this forum supporting the decision is a guy who works at Betcris.

He mostly says he doesn't agree with the cancel. SBR is the only party siding with the book here.

[phil_abuster]

You'll know it's a bad line bc it will move exactly the opposite of the way it usually does when you hit it with $5k, and then no one else will follow the move. That's how you'll know.

sorry. i know im new here but i really gotta disagree w/ that.
when i place any bet (3 books) i can only see that __i__ placed a bet - i cant see the numbers of other bettors also placing bets, their usernames, or their amounts. only my own. thus, yes, it certainly can happen - even if not frequently - where i place a bet on the fav at the exact same moment that a LARGER bet comes in on the dog! presto, the line moves opposite to what i might expect. because there are dog bettors too, i wouldnt give it a second thought, and if i wouldnt be violating sound BR management i too would consider a second bet at the line which just DROPPED (probably due to dog bettors). in fact, opposite line movements right after bets happens DAILY in live-action betting, just as an example.

someone mentioned a slippery slope and i have to agree. due to the need to balance action, at any given time books could differ up to 1.5 pts. we've all seen that. its part of the reason to open multiple outs and take advantage of the better lines, no? but to cancel a bet thats just a half pt off the consensus at the time just seems morally wrong. sure they have the right as per the rules, but the optics are all bad even if it honestly was a trader "tyypo"

also, i believe in free speech as well as personal responsibility. if a particular post is a violation of the posting rules then i say remove that post. but removing the poster or status (or threatening to) somehow feels wrong in lieu of the easy option to simply remove the post(s). on any forum sometimes there are going to be heated debates/negative comments/sarcasm. its like donald trump: i dont like most of his views but in our system i will fight to the death for his right to express them.

[evo34]

sorry. i know im new here but i really gotta disagree w/ that.
when i place any bet (3 books) i can only see that __i__ placed a bet - i cant see the numbers of other bettors also placing bets, their usernames, or their amounts. only my own. thus, yes, it certainly can happen - even if not frequently - where i place a bet on the fav at the exact same moment that a LARGER bet comes in on the dog!

Obviously, I am talking about when a sharp bettor who knows he moves lines places a max bet.

And no idea what you are talking about wrt removing a poster.

[evo34]

I know they make it out like it matters who the player is, but it doesn't. I'm still in complete shock that SBR is standing behind this decision, the only person on this forum supporting the decision is a guy who works at Betcris, pretty obvious that people working here don't wager on a regular basis like the rest of us because they clearly don't have a clue. You call within minutes to delete a mistake you made and are not allowed, yet they go ahead and delete a play from a guy thats half a point off because they felt like it. Childish bookmaking at its finest.

I work for Betcris?

[phil_abuster]

Obviously, I am talking about when a sharp bettor who knows he moves lines places a max bet.

im not. im talking about when ANY player, on any sport, at any book, places a bet which could cause the line to move - like even small bets will move the lines __at a given book__on women's college games - but a slightly larger bet _could_ come in at the same time on the other side!
also, so called "sharp" bettors have been known to be on the opposite side of bets too! not every day perhaps, but it does happen. i keep seeing this happen when i make max limit bets on live-action games. most of the time the vig moves some as a result of my bet, but often it goes the other way. has to either be heavier bets on the other side coming in at the same time, or the book is hoping to encourage me to take another bite (which i wont do bcuz it violates sound br mgmt)
anyway, no probs mate. cheers

[4nic8ing]

Obviously, I am talking about when a sharp bettor who knows he moves lines places a max bet.

And no idea what you are talking about wrt removing a poster.

Ok Evo34 since you work for CRIS. Do you sit on the stage and see the charts? In your time have the various groups ever manipulated a line and drove it one direction to then comeback on the other side? Have you ever seen groups oppose each other on a play? I would be shocked if your answer isn't YES on both instances.

[dirtdog52658]

I work for Betcris?

smoke not you, didn't realize there were two people agreeing with this, I guess if Trump can get votes anythings possible.

[smoke a bowl]

smoke not you, didn't realize there were two people agreeing with this, I guess if Trump can get votes anythings possible.

You obviously struggle with reading comprehension if you conclude that i complete agree with the decision based on what I've posted. I do see the logic in why the bet was cancelled. Pro makes a bet, trader moves wrong way on accident and same pro hits it 14 seconds later at a better price at 5am in the morning when nothing is moving in the US market. The trader obviously did not want that bet so he made a decision to cancel it. Though I think the bet should have stood, I understand why the trader did what he did at the time. He clearly made a mistake in the line move and the OP even admits that to be the case. I would stand 100% behind the traders decision if Betcris had a better way of instantly informing the player of said cancellation which hopefully in the near future they will have.

[aylos84]

The trader obviously did not want that bet so he made a decision to cancel it. Though I think the bet should have stood, I understand why the trader did what he did at the time.

It's totally ridiculous that 2 traders at the same company have different opinions on a decision. Why is the decision to cancel the bet or not down to an individual trader? Surely there should be a trading policy from upper management that is applied uniformly to any situation. Allowing individual traders to interpret situations themselves creates exactly the kind of problem we have here. Does BetCRIS have a terms and conditions regarding bad lines and cancellation of wagers? I cannot seem to find it on the website.

Even if I had been instantly informed this thread would still exist. Cancelling a bet at -13.5 when 99% of the market is -14 cannot, should not, will ever be a "Bad Line". If I was running a book this bet would never have been cancelled. And when a respected customer calls with a complaint that is immediately being transferred to somebody very very senior to handle. It all comes down to good management so that the good people on the phones and answering emails and are put in the position to make good decisions, respect customers and most important of all always present the company in a positive light.

There should be notes on the account "Player xxx makes a ton of live wagers, any calls/ emails regarding cancellation of wagers need to be handled by somebody at xxx level. If nobody at xxx level is available at the time please inform him the matter will be reviewed by xxx when he is in the office tomorrow."

Instead the conversation goes:

"I bet with you a ton and have a good relationship however I made a bet this morning at -13.5 and now 7 hours later the market is -15.5 and when I login there is a note on the account saying the bet has been cancelled. You have no right to do this"

Customer Service: "Management can cancel any wager at any time if they believe it to be a bad line."

Me: "I'm very unhappy with this decision. You don't mind me posting about it on SBR."

Customer Service: "Sure. No Problem."

[drjohn]

.....

just get over it and get on with your life ...

if you're very unhappy you can take your action elsewhere, but you'll keep playing at CRIS because you know that 99% of other sportsbooks would kick you out or limit you to peanuts after a few winning bets ...

[choo]

Why when I was the original person to bet and move the market to -14.5, should I allow some dumbass steam chaser to steal my work and analysis and get on Cleveland -13.5 at a better price than me!

pinny was OTB when you hit -13.5 at cris. how is a dumbass steam chaser going to know pinny was going to come back out at -14.5 and not -14 flat or -13.5?