There is proof in the DB line history (1st page of this thread) that there was no other bet and that the trader just accidentally moved the number the wrong way. The automove only moves the price, not the base number. So it would take a human trader to move the actually spread from 14 to 13.5. I agree that the cancellation was a bad one. However, once the decision is made and it is not brought up until after the result, the cancellation has to stand because had the result been dog winner there would be no call saying "can you please take my 5k. I still want my bet even though it lost". Even the OP will agree with this.
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I wonder, how does that prove that there was no other bet? I think that it actually proves that somebody was pounding the dog for max many times so the line changed to -13.5 and then the OP placed a max bet again and probably somebody else and the line moved to -14.5.
We are talking about a normal line fluctuation here people, -14 to -13.5
I agree that the OP would not offer his money because it is not his mistake they cancelled the bet. However, Betcris is responsible for it so they should also payComment -
Did you not see the line history sir? It was -14 -110. OP bet, line moved to -14 -126 moving the price because the automated software only moves the price not the actual spread. Then the human trader saw the number moved to -14 -126 and moved the number accidentally from -14 -126 to -13.5 -110 instead of -14.5 -110. This is something the OP will not dispute I promise. I agree the cancellation was not a correct one although the situation is closer than it seems for reasons most posters here will never understand although the OP does understand. I also agree that BetCris needs to find a better way to inform bettors instantly when their bets have been cancelled for whatever the reason. However once the cancellation is made and the result is in the decision has to stand. Something else I assure you the OP agrees with.Comment -
I believe that this was human error to move back to the original price rather than up to 14.5. Anyone that has watched Don Best in the last 2 seasons knows that CRIS has autopilot that moves the juice and then an employee eventually cleans up the juice and moves to a preferred number at -110/-110.
No disputing it was human error. The problem I have with it is how does this become a bad line? Do you wager Smoke a Bowl? This is a very slippery slope SBR is going down by siding with the book on this over something so small in relation to other shops at the time of the human error. Somebody correct me if I am wrong but didn't Pinnacle come out like 10 years ago in one of their Pinnalce Pulse articles and say that they use 7% as the criteria for determining a bad line?
So SBR is your stance going forward that any line off .5 point is considered a bad line and can rightfully be deleted by the book? I can just see "C" or "D" books running naked numbers for extended periods of time and then going to delete any advantageous wagers and leaving the rest. I am not saying CRIS is doing that or ever has done that before anyone jumps in here as I think CRIS runs a tremendous shop.
I just don't see how anyone that wagers anything at all isn't up in arms over this ruling. I don't know anything about the bettor in question here as he may be the biggest scum bag in the industry. Imagine if you bet something thinking you have value and then have the play deleted knowing that the new rules of the industry are .5 pt is considered a bad line.Comment -
It was a full point or approximately 4% being that the line should have been moved to 14.5 instead of 13.5. However I am not defending the cancellation. It was a bad cancellation and I don't think it would get ruled like that again. However bad decisions are made from time to time but nothing can be done after the fact. The OP isn't going to beg to take 5k out of his account after the game is over if he realizes then that the bet was cancelled if it lost so those decisions have to be binding whether correct or not at that point. I get the OPs complaint here and especially when you consider the horrendous job that customer service did explaining the situation. I chimed in to begin with just because I thought the OP was misrepresenting the situation to a degree which I still believe that to be the case though I get his displeasure.
To answer your question about the OP, no he is far from the biggest scumbag in the industry. He is actually far from a scumbag period. He is simply a very good professional bettor that took advantage of a bad line move (did nothing wrong here) and had a bet cancelled that probably should not have been cancelled. This happened at 5 am pacific when less experienced traders are making decisions. No excuse obviously but just explaining the situation. Then received a garbage answer from customer service which I'm sure set him off.Comment -
1) Smoke a bowl works at CRIS and seems to feel the wager should not have been cancelled.
2) At the time I made the wager CRIS was -13.5, Pinnacle was -14 -116, Every other book in the market was -14
3) Whether I am a professional or recreational player this should make no difference. A bad line is simply a function of the price of the book compared to the market consensus at the time. The point of the bad line rule would be to stop me betting Cleveland +14.5 or Cleveland -4.5. A bet at -13.5 when 99% of the books in the market are -14 should not be cancelled EVER EVER EVER.
4) It's 99% the trader made an error here but this should not make a difference. A bad line is simply a function of the price of the book compared to the market consensus at the time.
5) Whether the error was made by a junior trader or a senior trader because I bet at 8am ET should make no difference. A bad line is simply a function of the price of the book compared to the market consensus at the time.
6) If CRIS say they cancelled the bet immediately I have no reason to doubt them. However at the time this thread was created this was not clear. Their is no time stamped email or message which would have helped both parties in this case. Perhaps the thread title should now be "CRIS cancels NBA bet 0.5 points off market consensus due to bad line". I also agree that BetCris needs to find a better way to inform bettors instantly when their bets have been cancelled for whatever the reason. Agree
7) "However, once the decision is made and it is not brought up until after the result, the cancellation has to stand because had the result been dog winner there would be no call saying "can you please take my 5k. I still want my bet even though it lost"............My phone calls and this thread were created over 2 hours before the game started
8) "It was a full point or approximately 4% being that the line should have been moved to 14.5 instead of 13.5." It was 0.5 as 99% of sportsbooks were -14 at the time the wager was made.
9) "However bad decisions are made from time to time but nothing can be done after the fact." In fairness to Smoke a Bowl one time I called him after a winning wager live wager I made was cancelled instantly. He agreed it was a wrong decision and just put the $5k in my account.Comment -
Here is the email I received from SBR.
"There were facts left out of your original complaint that hindered our ability to properly present your issue. As you are most likely aware, the line erroneously auto-moved to -13.5 right after you max bet it at 14. The line was supposed to get changed to -14.5, where you later bet it again. The bad line was cancelled within minute. We understand the connection dropped twice when you called to discuss this issue.
There wasn’t a lot of good faith shown to the book. If you would still like to discuss the time-line of what happened, please request xxx in the wagering department.
-SBR
At the time this thread was created I had at no point been informed that the bet had been canceled instantly so how was I supposed to know what time the wager was cancelled? I was simply told that "Management can cancel any wager at any time if they deem it to be a bad line and their decision is final". I posted in this thread that I made the bet at -14 before the email to SBR was sent and in my opinion this has absolutely zero impact on whether it was a bad line or not.
"There wasn’t a lot of good faith shown to the book"............What else would you expect me to do and why are you not backing me here?
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I wonder what the decision would be if this was about betus
Does not matter if OP is a narcistic pig or a holly man, fact that the 1/2 point difference in basketball from market average is enough to cancel a bet quoting a bad line is a very bad thing but what makes it even worse is that the industry watchdog supports this decision. I like the sbr explanation, he did not show good faith like that has something to do with cancelling the betComment -
It doesn't have to be a 'bad line' for them to cancel an error when it is done immediately like this was. They are allowed to correct an input error, no matter the size of it, especially when it is done within a minute.
The problem arose when the OP did not notice the bet was cancelled, so still factored it into his trades/arbs on the game.
To an experienced player it would have been obvious the line move was 'strange' so I think in that spot it would have been smart to have kept on eye on that bet status..Comment -
So before settling future disputes is SBR going to determine the level of players to see if they are experienced? Why haven't you guys just come out and said the book is at fault here because they didn't properly notify the player. The ball would then be in the hands of CRIS to do what they felt was appropriate and you wouldn't have made a ruling that can be interpreted about a million different ways going forward with much less reputable books.
CRIS then has a simple choice and can put the screws to the player to decide if this 5k is really worth the "out".
1) Play remains cancelled as they feel they did nothing wrong
2) You can have the play but your account is closed believing the player knew what was up.
IMO this thing should have never even made it to SBR and SBR should have never sided with the book.Comment -
Yes, the players level of experience comes into it when trying to settle disputes. Quite often obvious newbie errors are over looked and on the other side obviously experienced people are expected to think for themselves a bit more.
I don't speak for SBR... but just to set you straight, the book is most definitely NOT in the wrong here. That isn't even in question now we know what happened. So the rest of your rant is kind of moot.
Last edited by Optional; 04-08-16, 08:18 AM..Comment -
I'm still in complete shock that they are siding with the book on this one, Absolutely ridiculous. I honestly don't give a shit what the OP wrote in his first post the action they took was wrong regardless. This opens up books to delete pretty much any wager they choose. Live betting, Line should of been +6.5 not +7.5 at that exact second sorry your bet is cancelled try proving that one. Just curious if they deleted all the diamondback bets last night they were 5-7cents higher than the rest of the market on the dog for almost half an hour yesterday, which is hard to do on a 20 cent baseball line, or even better what about the guys who laid -175 when the market clearly stated that at that time it should of been -160. Absolute Joke.
Cris
Pinnacle04/07 06:02:30pm #907 CUB J LACKEY -R -174
04/07 06:01:24pm #907 CUB J LACKEY -R -160 Comment -
Cris only book in market right now using a 7.5 Total on the Yankees is that safe to play?Comment -
depends, please tell us more about yourself, where you grew up, your IQ, education, marital status, previous betting experience or just send us your CV so we can decide because a sportsbook has the right to cancel any wager according to SBR if they do not like your CVComment -
I am sorry but this is becoming a Monthy Python sketchYes, the players level of experience comes into it when trying to settle disputes. Quite often obvious newbie errors are over looked and on the other side obviously experienced people are expected to think for themselves a bit more.
I don't speak for SBR... but just to set you straight, the book is most definitely NOT in the wrong here. That isn't even in question now we know what happened. So the rest of your rant is kind of moot.
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LOL, well then enlighten us. Did the player bet the game -13.5 when the rest of the market was -14 and have it deleted? If this is so cut and dry obvious why not state it so that we can move on.Comment -
We have some newer readers asking good questions like How do I know my bet wont be canceled? Im going to use some generalizations. Sharps, don't jump on me too fast...
These errors are rare but this is actually a more common occurrence than is shared in public. It happens at SBO, CRIS and there is a Pinnacle thread somewhere about the same thing. Its usually not publicized because the player cares more about having his trading account than going to the mat on the single bet.
To simplify, lets say there are bets and there are trades. A bettor will make a pick and then maybe hunt for the best line to bet $X and only $X. A trader is buying anything that's a good deal to capture instant equity. Think of it as going to Walmart and buying anything on sale that you can sell at a higher price on eBay. There is not one thing wrong with it. It makes efficient markets. And yes, a person can be a trader and a bettor. I'll buy the cereal and cheese I need but I might buy 20 Talking Elmos because they are 2x the price on the open market.
On to canceling tickets. OK, so whats the difference between a soft/opinionated bet and a wrong move? As mentioned, one is meant to be offered and one is an obvious (to those who are trading, and we'll get back to this) error. How is it an obvious error? The market is moving in one direction, the book needs to update, but turns right instead of left. Usually its fixed immediately but sometimes it takes the first big bet to notice which happens quick in major markets. This whole thing is usually fixed in seconds yet players will bet it almost instantly. There is even auto-buying software that jumps on anything thats off a certain percent.
OK I acknowledge the mistake but why not just keep the bet? It's only off 1 point! The sportsbook would literally be paying traders to capitalize on errors. If I'm the sportsbook and move a line the wrong way even for a few seconds, on markets with 5k limits, anyone who max bet it could have scored $1000 equity just for buying on my mistake. The player can literally sell out of that position in real time with thousands in pocket because bookmaker Joey hit the wrong button.
There will always be exceptions made for players. If the bad move is right before game time when many players are taking their home team regardless of the price, the books are stuck with 100s of bets on the mistake line. But the extreme... is the guy from Russian time zone betting an MLB baseball bad move at the second before the bookmaker's correction can even be written to the database. That guy, who is known to buy all the Talking Elmos, is not getting the benefit of the doubt. He needs to concede that the book's offer, similar to a reversed line, was obviously a mistake.
4/11 4:15pm To clarify on the line moves... The player first moved the line to 14 which really isn't relevant except that he knows his plays are respected at CRIS and knew which way the market is going. He bets +EV. All good.
CRIS then manually moved the line by human mistake a full point the wrong way. It was intended to move to 14.5 but went to 13.5. Within a few seconds the player confirms a new bet at that 13.5. CRIS corrects their line move error. The player refreshes his open bets a bunch knowing his number jumped wrong. They eventually remove that bet.
I understand the opinion that book's should eat these mistakes. Like in the example above, most times the book takes it on the chin. But if you are betting DBS screen moves, that comes with having to concede books make move errors.Comment -
To simplify for you newbies here, Mr. Dozer is trying to say that any bet can get cancelled and if it is from a sponsor book the decision will be fully supported. And to correct Mr. Dozer here is that the price was of by 0.5 points than average market at that time and that this 0.5 point of the average market is something Betcris, Pinnacle and other big sportbooks have on offer almost every day.
thank you for readingComment -
"OK I see the mistake but why not just keep the bet? It's only off 1 point! The sportsbook would literally be paying traders to capitalize on errors. If I'm the sportsbook and move a line the wrong way even for a few seconds, on markets with 5k limits, anyone who max bet it could have scored $1000 just for buying on my mistake. The player can literally sell out of that position in real time with thousand in pocket because bookmaker Joey hit the wrong button. "
By this logic any arbitrage opportunity that ever exists should be deleted. Cris ain't happy with what happened take it outta Joey's pocket or get a better trader.Comment -
Stop making it out like Betcris goes out of their way to screw people. The brand has been around for a long time and anybody that knows anything knows that Betcris is never intentionally trying to screw any player. If so you would see complaints on a daily basis of this same nature. This is very rare. I think the OP will attest to that and basically already has. There are inefficiencies from time to time in the way certain matters are handled but I assure you that work is being done everyday to improve on those. A bad decision in cancelling the bet was made in my opinion. However being that the decision wasn't reversed before the start of the game, nothing can be done about it now unfortunately. Something else I think the OP will also agree with.Comment -
There's two things they can do at this point, Make it right with the player and unfortunately eat the loss, or at the bare minimum come out with a set rule for how far off the market a play must be inorder to be deleted, so atleast everyone knows going in what will stand and what won't.Comment -
Youre confusing two different things here. A bad line is or isnt a bad line because of circumstances. If a book doesnt update its line because Popovich announces he is sitting starters the line is going to be way off but its not bad. If a book has -125/+115 fav/dog reversed, that could be less off but its reversed so its an obvious mistake.
No, not at all. CRIS actually wants traders. They want efficient markets. They are accepting large sharp players because they want their action not because they feel bad for large smart bettors with no home. Its not good will. Its their model.
But this is about betting into a market that doesn't exist or only shows to exist because of an error.. an error that is not debatable or subjective. Joey messed up.Comment -
After MR. Dozers replies I would feel you need to confirm this with their livechat, but because of previous decisions of SBR against sponsor books you should speak with someone in higher management if you really want to bet it. My advice is wait till they are -110 -110 on some market when pinnacle is -105 -105 and then do the max bet because then and only then you can be sure unless they did not really want to be in line with pinnacle and trader actually wanted it to be -109 -111 which brings you back to livechat and management...Comment -
No way a half point move in the NBA is "an error that is not debatable or subjective"
How does Joey know if the 13.5 was the result of a couple max dog bets the same time as his, or breaking player news, or CRIS taking a position on the dog, or a trader hitting the 3 key instead of 4?
Pretty debatable and subjective!
To me the main issue is the book failing to notify Joey promptly and clearly, plus the answer he received from CS is unacceptable!Comment -
Ok but how can somebody know that this was an error and not another group hitting the other side? If I find you line history of games where groups "dummied" one side and then hit the other side immediately do you think anyone that played the original side is entitled to their money back?
You have to see the flawed logic in saying a random player is supposed to know what every other gambler is doing in the world every second of the day. You guys are sticking to your ruling based on something that nobody can ever know beforehand.Comment -
There is no logic, even the guy who works at betcris said that it was a mistake to cancell it but sbr thinks that this is a slam dunk caseComment -
There is logic behind it but I don't agree with the cancellation. As a bookmaker you put a number up where you want to take a bet on either side with the vig. If you take a bet at -14 -110 from one of the sharpest guys in the house, you certainly don't want to take a bet at -13.5 -110, 14 seconds later from the same sharp bettor. Betcris was clearly not trying to book that bet. That's the logic for cancelling it. However I think the trader (meaning the book) was suppose to eat that $200ish in EV that he just gave away being that it was only a point off of the desired line at the time.Comment -
the logic part was not about Cris, it was about the explanation of Mr. Dozer how player should always know where the line will move. I wish I was that sharp...Comment -
[QUOTE=Bill Dozer;
But this is about betting into a market that doesn't exist or only shows to exist because of an error.. an error that is not debatable or subjective. Joey messed up.[/QUOTE]
I agree only with one thing in this thread with Mr. Dozer and that is that there is one thing which is not debatable or subjective and that is that 0.5points difference in spread is not a bad line and not possible to know for Joey that this is a bad line because it is NOT and never will be in NBAComment -
While I agree with most of Dozer's post, which isn't common for me, I think it shows a lot about the operation if they can't eat a $5,000 half point on a NBA spread. I see this as the companies fault for either a bad trader or a bad process to allow a good trader to make this mistake. It's not the players fault for betting something they have an edge on.
Regardless for whose at fault let's look at some napkin math. Assuming the 14 has a 3.5% push rate (sbr half point calc) that would mean an edge of $175 on that bet. If this is something that BetCris really needs to go after and chase the player for I think they've got bigger problems than taking sharp action.
BOL out there guys
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I guess betcris did not mean to offer that price and that is reason enough for SBR to accept the cancellation. When SIA cancels bets next time because they did not mean to have arbitrage bets and they cancel it within 5 minutes it is ok (even we do not know it was really cancelled so fast, we have to take bookies word for it)Comment
