BetUS and Tout collaborating on Scam? SBR investigates

[Jaarel]

Peep ill check into it and get back to you. I dont have the total of all the bets on me here. But ill get them and get back to you.

[Peep]

Thanks Jaarel.

That will help me understand it better.

[tomcowley]

Lots of history of record manipulation and cherry-picking the best results. When you cheat on your record, only publicize the best trials, and give short-term samples with something that wins about 94% against coinflip lines (which is less than breakeven, obviously), it would be more surprising if he couldn't find something to market. Standard scam system, standard suckers and shills.

[Peep]

Well sure, the betting sceme of "three packs with a twist of progressive" will cover up for a few straight picking mistakes, until the roof caves in.

I am just interested in his plays and how they did.

[HeeeHAWWWW]

I'll assume it's a scam unless:

1) Several years of records (nothing less is going to be statistically valid).
2) Independently audited, and not by your uncle.

[Peep]

Some comment from a reviewer.

Sports Betting Champ is probably one of the most popular and hyped up systems i have ever come across to date, when you first look at the site it looks way to good to be true, and unfortunately IT IS.
The first thing that will grab your attention as you browse the site is the very impressive strike rate John, the author, claims.
The second thing that will probably grab your attention after you have thought to yourself “that strike rate is far too good to be true” is the seemingly endless list of comments, videos and recordings from people saying how impressive sports betting champ is and that its giving them countless numbers of wins in a row. Then you will see screen shots of johns betting bank which also seems to prove all the hype the website claims and everyone’s appraisals claim, and then, if you are like the vast majority of people who are taken in by the claims and seemingly concrete testimonials you will probably hand over your hard earned cash with your dreams of future wealth apparently about to come true.
Then, once you have handed over your cash, the big disappointments will come.
Firstly instead of receiving a link to download the system like you would expect after paying such a lot of money you will receive nothing at all but a receipt and the frustration of waiting.
Next, once John realises you have paid (which to be fair was quite quickly when i purchased the system for review purposes) you will get an email from him, but still there will be no sign of the system, which is what you paid for and have been waiting for. Instead you will get an email saying how good Betus.com is and that John has got you a deal and if you telephone them and ask for Bruce you can have a 55% bonus on your first deposit, so you should do that and email John once you have done this and opened your account and he will send you the system.
There is absolutely no need whatsoever for John to send this email to you, he could have simply put a note in the system recommending Betus.com, so he is obviously part of the Betus Affiliate program and want as many people to sign up as possible so he will get a percentage of all your winnings, or losses etc, and a lot of people will think that because they have got this email instead of what they paid for they have to sign up to Betus before they can use the system which they are still waiting for. YOU DONT, so if you’re not interested just tell him you will use your own bookie.
The system will not work on betting exchanges, you will need a bookie that allows you to bet on the points line on Baseball and Basketball, and also allows you to add additional points to the points line.
I suggest Bet365.com if you live in the UK.
If you do sign up with Betus and tell John, he will then ask for your account number before sending the system because he can get you a better deal than the first one he offered because Bruce has now apparently been promoted. This may or may not have been true, i personally think he just needs your account number so he can claim his affiliate commissions.
Once you finally get your systems, and start reading through them you will immediately spot that the system involves chasing losses, so unfortunately all those claims on the site of many many winners in a row are somewhat falsified, and the systems have never ever had countless bets in a row, at least not the type of bets that most people call a bet. Below is how its explained.
Each bet is not a bet at all, its a series 3 bets that include the same team in a certain situation. (Obviously i cant reveal the rules or say what the situation is) and if the first bet loses you have to increase your stakes on the second bet to make up for the loss and make a profit, and if the second bet loses you have to increase stakes again!
The system claims there is only a 15% chance the second bet will lose and a “close to 0%” chance the 3rd will lose. Its actually more like a 4-5% chance the 3rd will lose but obviously “close to 0%” sounds better to buyers. Now this sounds good, and with statistically proven claims like that you probably won’t mind chasing losses, this was my first response anyway, and it didn’t put me off until i realised the next huge disappointment.
The odds are always, without fail , around 1.50 – 1.60 for the bets John gives out! Which means that if the 1st and 2nd bets lose you end up staking a huge amount of money on the 3rd bet just to win a very measly half a point. SEE BELOW EXAMPLE
The 1st bet you bet £10 on Utah to win at odds of 1.50 but they lose, this means you have lost £10.
The 2nd bet you now have to bet £20 just to win back the £10 you have just lost because the odds are still 1.50. You also need To add another £10 pounds to win the £5 profit, this means your next bet is £30.
The 2nd bet also loses so you now have to place £80 on the next bet to make up for the total of £40 you have just lost from the previous 2 bets, plus another £10 to make the £5 profit which is £90.
If that bet loses you will have lost £130 altogether just from trying to win £5!
This is not only a bloody stupid idea but very risky, because according to the results on the site it will lose 2-3 times per season with the NBA system and up to 3 times with the MLB system, both of which involve chasing losses in the same way and have around the same odds, so now consider following season taken from his site……
2005-06 season: 71 wins – 3 Losses
The above are the results he shows for the 05-06 system, looks impressive doesn’t it!
See below for what he actually won, based on £10 stakes and odds of 1.50.
71 wins @ £5 per win = £355
3 losses at £130 per loss = -£390
Total profit for entire season = - £35
In a nutshell if you do get 3 losers a season, which the system has, does and will surely do again, you will probably be in the minuses after the season has finished. If it only loses once or twice your profits will be very small and you will wonder why you went to all that trouble and risk because it just wasn’t worth the effort. After a whole season you have very little to show for your efforts and on some occasions you would have risked £130 just to win £5…
The testimonials on the site are either faked from friends of Johns, or are simply people that have experienced lots of bets (which remember are actually up to 3 bets) winning in a row and have not yet had any losses from the 3rd bet, and don’t realise that the 3rd bet will lose probably 2-3 times during the season and either wipe out the betting bank or take away most of it.
There are even testimonials that say things like “I made over $1200 last week on my bets”
I seriously doubt there were more than 3 bets that week but I’ll be generous and say there were 5.
You will only win about half you stake back as I’ve already pointed out so he must have been betting at $480 stakes to get $1200! And that’s just the starting stake, if it went to the 3rd bet he’d of been betting about $6240 just to win $240. Ridiculous!
Fortunately if you are bright enough to realise that the system is in no way the cash machine it claims to be, or if you were lucky enough to read this review, John offers a no questions asked refund which i suggest you take him up on.
The system will be profitable in the long run, but the profits will be tiny.
My personal opinion is this..
If you can afford large stakes then you may not mind the small profit percentage you will make, IF you make any at all, and this system may still be for you. The systems are relatively easy to operate if you want to use them yourself and are well laid out, or John will email you the tips if you want him too, for free, so you don’t need to pick the selections yourself. Its the least he do for selling you a system that’s more likely to skint you than make you rich!
However there is little point in buying the system if you don’t like risks and want to make a decent profit per season.

from http://www.freenbapicks.org/sportsbe...scam/#Comments

[MonkeyF0cker]

Every chase system fails eventually. Period.

[andywend]

This John Morrison chase system involves buying 3 points on the side he recommends. If it loses, you go to a "B" bet buying 3 points and then to a "C" bet buying 3 points doubling up each time.

While every site I have come across that offers buying multiple points charges -180 to buy 3 points, they claim you can lay -170 at BetJamaica.

Using the -170, the system would work like this:

"A" Bet: Lay 170 to win 100, if it loses
"B" Bet: Lay 459 to win 270, if that loses
"C" Bet: Lay 1239 to win 729 If the "C" bet loses, then you have lost the series.

As you can see, you are risking $1,868 to win $100 on each series so you have to win approximately 95% of the series bets to break even.

The other problem is that as soon as Morrison releases his plays, the lines move quickly because many people follow his system so it can sometimes be a problem buying 3 points off of the initial line he posts. This is ESPECIALLY TRUE if he gets to stage "C" of his system because so many people are betting HUGE AMOUNTS chasing their first 2 losses.

Like all chasing "Martingale" systems, you win far more often than you lose but when you lose its a total disaster.

If this chase system has been working, then I believe the results would be far better if you simply bet all of his picks individually against the actual spread without paying to buy points.

[Peep]

Thanks Andy, nice summary. I understand it now.

[InTheHole]

Soo...it makes sense to sign up through Morrison and then play the opposite....BETUS would get killed...no?

[treece]

All chase systems are bad.

[Santo]

InTheHole: After you did that once they would stop showing you the shaded lines.

[Justin7]

InTheHole: After you did that once they would stop showing you the shaded lines.

It took them all of 1 day to remove the shaded lines if you show an ounce of sharpness.

[Mudcat]

I hope SBR is not trying to act all heroic here. From where I sit, SBR has been a participant in the scam. This Chase system has been openly promoted in the Players Talk forum for ages.

And a quick check shows it is still running.

A known scamming tout pushing his chase system using about a zillion obvious shills. Seems like a pretty automatic recipe for a trip to Site Promotions.

Why not in this case?

[Peep]

I am glad they left it up Mudcat.

Best thing to do with a scam (and I definitely think this is one, on several levels) is to expose it to the light of day.

[Mudcat]

That's an interesting way of looking at it I suppose but in the end we will have to agree to disagree. I feel that thread is much more likely to reel in suckers than educate anyone.

Based on actions, SBR also disagrees with you. They usually take action against known scams and site promotions running in the main forum. Just not this one for some reason.

I'm okay with it either way. I used to worry about protecting suckers from themselves but you won't see me in that CHASE SYSTEM thread trying to sway anyone. Kill it, keep it. Whatever.

[AgainstAllOdds]

I hope SBR is not trying to act all heroic here. From where I sit, SBR has been a participant in the scam. This Chase system has been openly promoted in the Players Talk forum for ages.

And a quick check shows it is still running.

A known scamming tout pushing his chase system using about a zillion obvious shills. Seems like a pretty automatic recipe for a trip to Site Promotions.

Why not in this case?

I think you are going being a little harsh here. Just because sbr leaves up a thread, doesnt mean that by doing so, they endorse, or participate in that thread. Also, you talked about obvious shills supporting the thread, but you really have no proof of this. Thus, no trip to site promos.

[MMR]

It's dishonest but I wouldn't out and out call it a scam. I am sure you can bet on the other side. Wouldn't be too bad if you knew you could get paid....now that would be a scam

[Mudcat]

I think you are going being a little harsh here. Just because sbr leaves up a thread, doesnt mean that by doing so, they endorse, or participate in that thread. Also, you talked about obvious shills supporting the thread, but you really have no proof of this. Thus, no trip to site promos.

You have quoted the shill defense very well. No proof - maybe they're just sincere suckers - yada-yada. In fact, by those standards, very few people have ever had proof of shills. Maybe there is no such thing as shills.

So let's set the shills issue aside.

We would have to agree to disagree on the rest.

Historically, scamming touts with websites being promoted get moved to site promotions. By giving this one special treatment, there is a tacit approval IMO.

I suspect SBR is just being excessively methodical and this one will be shipped out too.

Let's have a friendly gentleman's wager on it. I say it will not be allowed to continue indefinitely. We shall see.

[Peep]

I am starting to wonder if his picks have merit.

I like the teams he is playing in his example, all junk teams getting a ton of points. Does he follow the same garbage team for all three plays? That would be interesting to run on a database. By the 3rd game you would be getting a few extra points IMO, like betting Depaul at the end of the college season when they closed at 7-2 ATS (or thereabouts), after a horrific start.

[BouncedCheck]

I feel that thread is much more likely to reel in suckers than educate anyone.
....................................
I'm okay with it either way. I used to worry about protecting suckers from themselves but you won't see me in that CHASE SYSTEM thread trying to sway anyone. Kill it, keep it. Whatever.

I think it's good to keep the thread open, because those people who take the time to read all the details deserve to have the information presented in an unbiased light.

Considering all the information is there, anyone who is too lazy to read it or too stupid to understand it, let them lose their entire bankroll, and I won't feel the slightest bit sorry for them. I agree with you there.

But again, it's better to have the information out there for those who will use it properly. All anyone deserves is to have an opportunity to be educated about the system by an independent party. How they choose to use that information is up to them. No matter how much somebody hates the idea of a system, it's not their place to tell anyone not to use it. The point of that thread is not to encourage or discourage people from using the system. It's simply there to educate those who don't fully understand it at first.

[Justin7]

SBR has always favored leaving information up, and not censoring. I've posted quite a few times about problems in the "system".

[jdogdee]

Thanks for the info. I used John's system, but didn't sign up under BetUS. I am with another book and picked up the system at beginning of March and profitted $650 going 13-0. His record for 2008-2009 NBA season is 78-0 by the way. The one loss was on another system, but even if it was with JM chase, the one loss would account for 17 wins in my betting rates spreadsheet. I would risk about $850 if I were to lose all three bets. Note: I bet to win $50 per series. Thus, I would lose 17 profitted bets. If John were 77-1 as you claim, this would be 77-17 as to profits or 60 units of profit. For me, that would be +$3000. I think that is pretty nice. I'll take that as a full time teacher. But you guys go ahead and keep bashing the system, I'll take my $650 cashout and 13-0! Thanks John.

[Justin7]

Thanks for the info. I used John's system, but didn't sign up under BetUS. I am with another book and picked up the system at beginning of March and profitted $650 going 13-0. His record for 2008-2009 NBA season is 78-0 by the way. The one loss was on another system, but even if it was with JM chase, the one loss would account for 17 wins in my betting rates spreadsheet. I would risk about $850 if I were to lose all three bets. Note: I bet to win $50 per series. Thus, I would lose 17 profitted bets. If John were 77-1 as you claim, this would be 77-17 as to profits or 60 units of profit. For me, that would be +$3000. I think that is pretty nice. I'll take that as a full time teacher. But you guys go ahead and keep bashing the system, I'll take my $650 cashout and 13-0! Thanks John.

jdog,

You're part of the misinformation. His released picks were not perfect. Of course, it's hard to document anything because his plays are not released with a spread - just a team. Of course, if he released teams with spreads, it would be harder to fudge his record (and people would see they're getting screwed at BetUS faster).

[Trident]

Thanks for the info. I used John's system, but didn't sign up under BetUS. I am with another book and picked up the system at beginning of March and profitted $650 going 13-0. His record for 2008-2009 NBA season is 78-0 by the way. The one loss was on another system, but even if it was with JM chase, the one loss would account for 17 wins in my betting rates spreadsheet. I would risk about $850 if I were to lose all three bets. Note: I bet to win $50 per series. Thus, I would lose 17 profitted bets. If John were 77-1 as you claim, this would be 77-17 as to profits or 60 units of profit. For me, that would be +$3000. I think that is pretty nice. I'll take that as a full time teacher. But you guys go ahead and keep bashing the system, I'll take my $650 cashout and 13-0! Thanks John.

I find it amazing you found SBR just today to come and tell us all what a great and wonderful system this is

[BouncedCheck]

The one loss was on another system, but even if it was with JM chase, the one loss would account for 17 wins in my betting rates spreadsheet. I would risk about $850 if I were to lose all three bets. Note: I bet to win $50 per series. Thus, I would lose 17 profitted bets. If John were 77-1 as you claim, this would be 77-17 as to profits or 60 units of profit.

Wrong. It does not matter what size unit you're trying to win each series. Assuming -170 odds on every game, a series loss costs 18.683 win units, not 17.

Your loss wouldn't be $850 on a series loss. It would be $85 + $229.50 + $619.65 = $934.15

$934.15 ÷ $50 = 18.683 win units

His record for 2008-2009 NBA season is 78-0 by the way. The one loss was on another system, but even if it was with JM chase, the one loss would account for 17 wins in my betting rates spreadsheet.

Wrong again. His record is not 78-0. At best, it's 77-1 as he e-mailed the Kings on the first series of the season as a play, then filtered it out of his marketing because it lost. If it had won, he wouldn't have filtered it out. There was another series that lost (Charlotte I believe) in which he claimed a series win based on a spread that wasn't available to the vast majority of players. Many of them pushed or lost on the C bet, so that doesn't count as a win either. Still, 76-2 is a profitable record under this system, but not every year will be as productive as this year was. Again, a record of 76-4 will merely break even. In other words, if less than 95% of the series win for the season, the player loses money. It doesn't get simpler than that.

You might tweak the system to make it safer and/or add your own filters, but if you simply play the JM system as instructed, you need a 95% win rate or you'll end up in the red. Combined with JM's deceptive marketing and predatory exploitation of inexperienced gamblers, the only conclusion can be that the man is a scumbag. That's not to say you can't make money using this system or your system that's based on this system. Plenty of people have won plenty of money this year. But that doesn't change the fact that the man is a scumbag.

[Peep]

Do you know when you pick up a team Bounced Check? And do you then play them for three consecutive games regardless? Home or road?

[BouncedCheck]

.......................

[HeeeHAWWWW]

Chase systems are freaking stupid.

Chase systems + a book as dodgy as BetUS?

[Peep]

Chase systems are freaking stupid.

Chase systems + a book as dodgy as BetUS?

Sort of interesting to me, I can see how it could do well, IF the events are some correlated.

As is, he is, as far as I know, betting three -170's in a row.

Chances of losing all three as far as I can figure are .37 X .37 X .37, or 5%. So he could well hit 95% winners.

[Justin7]

Sort of interesting to me, I can see how it could do well, IF the events are some correlated.

As is, he is, as far as I know, betting three -170's in a row.

Chances of losing all three as far as I can figure are .37 X .37 X .37, or 5%. So he could well hit 95% winners.

3 separate games, bet after the prior one loses. Correlation is almost 0 - and the new line already reflects the anti-streakiness of series.

[Peep]

Thanks Justin.

Brings us back to the other question we were talking about a month or so back, i.e. "is it worth it to buy three points to -170". Consensus was as I remember that it was slightly but not dramatically favorable.

So...

I wouldn't play this system with SBR John's money, but, seeing as how it would win 19 out of 20 times, it will be difficult to debunk as well.

[Chi_archie]

good stuff

[Shark79]

Just another example of what I mean using crazyl's statement.

March 7, 2009: Golden State Warriors +6 (vs +8) You could get -6 when -8 was everywhere else.

AAO ... in case you didnt check the score on this game:

GSW 120
Bucks 127

Taking the Bucks -6 was the play.

[fiveteamer]

did not make it.