Player vs. BetEd Opinion ($6881 confiscation)

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  • Justin7
    SBR Hall of Famer
    • 07-31-06
    • 8577

    #1
    Player vs. BetEd Opinion ($6881 confiscation)
    Player vs. BetEd

    On or about December 25, 2008 the player deposited $50 via E-Check to BetEd using his father’s checking account. BetEd withdrew an amount from $49 to $50, which the player confirmed by giving the exact amount. Over the next two weeks, the player ran his balance up to $6,931 placing mostly straight bets. On January 6th, the player attempted to make a withdrawal. The player submitted validation documents for the e-check deposit. Shortly thereafter, his account was closed and the balance reduced to $0.

    BetEd claimed the player committed fraud, citing several rules to support their position. First, there were three “related” accounts that shared IP addresses, physical addresses, and even an email address. The three accounts were registered in the names of the player, the player’s fiancée, and the player’s father. Only the player’s account was ever funded or used.The player and his fiancée had shared an email address at one point.

    BetEd had several rules on point:

    Rule 2 states “Only one account is allowed per household, shared computer or IP Address. If you do share a house or computer with friends, coworkers, spouse or otherwise, please contact Customer Service before depositing to make special arrangements”

    Rule 13 states “All information provided by a player must be accurate and verifiable. If you have provided false information or are unable or unwilling to provide documentation to confirm your information, your account may be terminated and all activity within the account considered invalid.”

    Rule 14 states “…your bank account information must match the information supplied during your initial registration.

    After SBR concluded its investigation of the “multi-account” issue, BetEd raised its “e-check defense”. BetEd stated that in any case where a player deposits with e-check and the bank account name on verification documents do not match the player name, it cancels all wagers and refunds the deposit. This was employed whether the player won or lost, as a player deposit with a non-matching bank account was clearly not allowed in the T&C.

    SBR poster robmpink notified SBR that this was not always true – this poster had personal experience several years earlier. Robmpink deposited $500, lost $200, and withdrew $300. BetEd had kept the proceeds of an e-check deposit with non-matching names after the player provided an authorization for usage of the bank account. After receiving robmpink’s explanation, SBR spoke with BetEd’s fraud prevention manager. BetEd did not deny robmpink’s experience. Additionally, BetEd admitted that a player’s information can only be checked against his bank information when he provides the banking verification documents. If a player loses his balance, he is not likely to provide this verification (nor would his deposit be voided even though the bank account name does not match up to the player name). Consequently, BetEd’s policy allows it to void wagers from winnings players, but very rarely voids wagers from losing players in the same situation.

    BetED further argues that the player is a known fraudster. In support of this claim, they state and offer evidence that the player is “in collection” due to a transaction with an e-wallet company. The player denies this claim.

    Issue #1: Does the violation of the rule “one account per household” allow a Sportsbook to confiscate winnings when only one account was ever funded or used?

    A sportsbook can only confiscate funds when there is clear evidence of fraud. One method that fraudulent players frequently use is the opening and usage of multiple accounts. By controlling multiple accounts, a player can collect multiple bonuses, circumvent limits or disguise the origin of his sharp action. When a player uses multiple accounts, he is intentionally violating the rules to make more money at the expense of the sportsbook.

    In this case, the player only funded one account. He did not collect multiple bonuses, circumvent BetED’s limits, or do anything else that suggested fraud. Unlike most multi-account cases presented to Sportsbookreview, there is nothing to suggest the violation of the “one account per household” was for the purpose of committing fraud.

    When a player has only funded and used one account, there is no fraud when the player violates the “one account per household” rule, and confiscating that player’s winnings is excessive absent a clear showing of fraud.

    Issue #2: May a sportsbook have a term and condition that lets it “free-roll” players without the player’s actual knowledge?

    If a player deposits with E-check at BetEd, the deposit will be “conditionally” approved when the player tells BetEd the exact withdrawal amount, which shows the player has access to the bank account. At that point, BetEd has the money and it is gone from the bank account. BetEd asks for additional banking documents and requires these before any withdrawals will be processed.

    If a player makes a deposit from a bank account not in his name – as in this dispute, where the player made a deposit from his father’s checking account with the father’s permission, one of two events is probable. If the player loses his balance, he is not likely to ever submit the verification documents, since the money is already gone, and he has no more “stake” in the book. In that case, the completed e-check withdrawal stands. If the player wins and later makes a withdrawal, BetEd voids the winnings, as the names do not match.

    The effect of this policy is that when a player deposits with a non-matching bank account, BetEd can free-roll the player. If the player loses his deposit, BetEd keeps it. If the player wins, BetEd confiscates the winnings, and refunds the deposit for “non-matching” per its rules.

    The most important rule in offshore sports betting is “If you book the bet, you pay it”. If a rule that is buried in the “Terms and Conditions” allows a book to ignore this rule and free-roll a player, the rule must be fair and prominently shown. In BetEd’s case, most players are taken unaware. There is no conspicuous notice of this clause in the “E-check” deposit screen. Most players would assume that depositing with someone else’s check account is fair – in fact, BetEd had allowed this in the past. BetEd may have valid reasons for wanting this rule to be followed, but burying this rule in the T&C is not sufficient to allow it to free-roll the player.

    If a Sportsbook wishes to enforce a rule that allows it to free-roll a player, it MUST be able to show the player knew of the rule (and the rule must be fair). In most cases, this requires more than putting the rule in the T&C. In this case, BetED only put the rule in the T&C, and cannot show the player knew of this term.

    Issue #3: Is proof that a player is in collections for a debt to an E-Wallet Company sufficient to show that the player intended to commit fraud against the Sportsbook?

    Late in the dispute after SBR suggested its first two defenses were insufficient, BetEd offered proof that the player was in collections for a debt to an E-Wallet. The proof did not include any explanation of how the debt to the E-Wallet arose. If the player were in collections, it could be for any number of reasons, some fraudulent and some innocent. Absent an explanation of how the purported debt arose, one cannot conclude that the player intended fraud from the mere existence of a delinquent account.

    If BetEd had offered proof that the player had a pattern and history of making e-check deposits and reversing them, this could strongly suggest that the player understood the workings of e-check deposits including BetEd’s rules, and was intending to manipulate BetEd with the intent to defraud. This proof did not exist, however, so the possibility of the player being in collections was not relevant. As this claim would not affect the disposition of this case, SBR does not need to investigate this claim further.

    Conclusion

    BetEd has failed to show the player was attempting fraud. BetEd’s rule allowing it to free-roll players is not enforceable. SBR has recommended that BetEd pay the player all his winnings, and revise its E-check deposit procedure to ensure players are aware of
    BetEd’s name-matching rule.

    Disposition

    BetEd has suggested that SBR, including Bill Dozer and Justin7 are not impartial in this dispute. In support of this, BetED cites posts in the thread titled “BetEd player makes $6,931 mistake” at this link: http://forum.sbrforum.com/sportsbook...1-mistake.html. BetEd has suggested binding arbitration using an independent attorney. While the player is free to agree to whatever remedy he can find, SBR’s position remains the same: pay the player.
  • Justin7
    SBR Hall of Famer
    • 07-31-06
    • 8577

    #2
    One minor post-note... BetEd and I are playing phone tag, and they are still discussing this matter.
    Comment
    • tomcowley
      SBR MVP
      • 10-01-07
      • 1129

      #3
      LOL at the bias. You were ready to give them the decision (correctly) until they proved to be liars.
      Comment
      • bigboydan
        SBR Aristocracy
        • 08-10-05
        • 55420

        #4
        Wasn't the president already set on Issue #3? I remember Ken (The Shrink) got a gentlemen paid his 18 dimes from BetUS with similar alligators.
        Comment
        • reno cool
          SBR MVP
          • 07-02-08
          • 3567

          #5
          I dig it. Makes sense. Nice write up, explanation.
          bird bird da bird's da word
          Comment
          • reno cool
            SBR MVP
            • 07-02-08
            • 3567

            #6
            Originally posted by tomcowley
            LOL at the bias. You were ready to give them the decision (correctly) until they proved to be liars.
            are you saying that if they refunded robmpink the full $500, they would have the right to keep the money in this case?
            bird bird da bird's da word
            Comment
            • Peep
              SBR MVP
              • 06-23-08
              • 2295

              #7
              Good write up.

              Personally, I think up to this point SBR has been giving the book MORE than the benefit of a doubt.

              For them to whine you are "prejudiced against them" is stupid.

              Are they broke in your opinion Justin? Or they just don't want to part with it?

              And what about the girl's case? Anything come out of that, the one who sometimes bet with a CR ISP. I think they should pay her too.
              Comment
              • InTheHole
                SBR Posting Legend
                • 04-28-08
                • 15243

                #8
                Nice write - up Justin7
                Comment
                • poker_dummy101
                  Restricted User
                  • 11-03-08
                  • 6395

                  #9
                  B- to C+ is a very small step for a major problem.
                  Comment
                  • wtf
                    SBR Posting Legend
                    • 08-22-08
                    • 12983

                    #10
                    great write up and conclusion (yours) as still unresolved, pieces of dog shits

                    very well done
                    Comment
                    • poker_dummy101
                      Restricted User
                      • 11-03-08
                      • 6395

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Peep
                      Good write up.

                      Personally, I think up to this point SBR has been giving the book MORE than the benefit of a doubt.

                      For them to whine you are "prejudiced against them" is stupid.

                      Are they broke in your opinion Justin? Or they just don't want to part with it?

                      And what about the girl's case? Anything come out of that, the one who sometimes bet with a CR ISP. I think they should pay her too.
                      I agree with all these points
                      Comment
                      • Justin7
                        SBR Hall of Famer
                        • 07-31-06
                        • 8577

                        #12
                        Originally posted by reno cool
                        are you saying that if they refunded robmpink the full $500, they would have the right to keep the money in this case?
                        No. They're still free-rolling the player.

                        The point of that note is that SBR gained extra information from posters. When we pursued this, we found out more, and this had a significant impact on the result of this case.

                        Information is power.
                        Comment
                        • purecarnagge
                          SBR MVP
                          • 10-05-07
                          • 4843

                          #13
                          What was beteds response to Robmpink allegations?
                          Comment
                          • Justin7
                            SBR Hall of Famer
                            • 07-31-06
                            • 8577

                            #14
                            Originally posted by purecarnagge
                            What was beteds response to Robmpink allegations?
                            They did not dispute what he said, but said procedures were different several years ago before the UIGEA was passed.
                            Comment
                            • tomcowley
                              SBR MVP
                              • 10-01-07
                              • 1129

                              #15
                              If they had a procedure that always identified and refunded mismatched e-check deposits, even if they lost, then they'd be ok. It sounds like they intentionally choose not to refund when a player has lost and they find out, on top of systematically failing to identify most losers, which makes their conduct in this case even worse. They flat out admit that they're using that rule exclusively as a freeroll. C+ is far too nice.
                              Comment
                              • reno cool
                                SBR MVP
                                • 07-02-08
                                • 3567

                                #16
                                Yeah, I think they would have to provide some evidence of regularly refunding losses, and the total would have to be at least comparable to the 7K. Of course that sounds impossible. Not to be negative, but I'm still not clear on what Justin thought he would find on this particular part of the issue that would absolve the book.
                                bird bird da bird's da word
                                Comment
                                • reno cool
                                  SBR MVP
                                  • 07-02-08
                                  • 3567

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by poker_dummy101
                                  B- to C+ is a very small step for a major problem.
                                  It's not over yet, if they decide to pay up c+ sounds fair. They're trying to correct the problem and improve the operation. If they still refuse to pay it should be lowered further.
                                  bird bird da bird's da word
                                  Comment
                                  • Bill Dozer
                                    www.twitter.com/BillDozer
                                    • 07-12-05
                                    • 10894

                                    #18
                                    Also in the player's favor is that the rule has been in print for years, at least back as far as we can see in 2005.
                                    Comment
                                    • SBR_John
                                      SBR Posting Legend
                                      • 07-12-05
                                      • 16471

                                      #19
                                      Its a fine write up. Justin you really put in an incredible effort on these disputes.

                                      I agree with the majority. However issue 3 I'm not 100% comfortable with. IF BetEd can prove this player has a pattern of fraudlent activety it should be investigated by SBR even if it does not relate to this case. For example what if we later learned this was a serial scammer? Would all 3 issues and opinions be held the same as they are now? Having said that I think its highly unlikely a guy who deposits 50 bucks under his Dad's name is trying to pull a scam. Hopefully the smart thing will be done here by the sportsbook and we can all move on.
                                      Comment
                                      • Dark Horse
                                        SBR Posting Legend
                                        • 12-14-05
                                        • 13764

                                        #20
                                        Justin clearly identified the flaws in their system, of which only a very small portion of the public will now be aware. Instead of fixing those flaws, and thereby become a more trustworthy book, Beted seems to have chosen to not change anything and defend itself on a case-by-case basis. How convenient.

                                        And it also arrogantly places itself above SBR arbitration; in itself a telling move, especially in light of how top rated books act on SBR's suggestions.

                                        Also, I believe they were caught in a flat out lie. If I remember correctly they defended their confiscation of funds in a previous case (sexygamblerchick) by assuring everyone that it worked both ways and that losing players would be refunded if the paperwork didn't match. We now know that this is not true.

                                        They're setting people up, and will lie when it serves their purpose. They refuse to be held accountable, and are not interested in creating a safer gambling environment for players. They're blaming everyone else with unproven allegations -players, and even SBR for lack of objectivity-, rather than take an objective look at themselves. I feel sorry for them.

                                        Based on Justin's analysis, and Beted's response, I believe that the public should be warned that this is a scambook, and the only way to do that is to downgrade them to D or lower. Their trap is set. Put a big red flag right next to it. Otherwise it's just a matter of time before this story repeats.
                                        Last edited by Dark Horse; 02-08-09, 04:07 AM.
                                        Comment
                                        • AgainstAllOdds
                                          SBR Hall of Famer
                                          • 02-24-08
                                          • 6053

                                          #21
                                          I think its a good conclusion by Justin and a bad decision by BetEd.

                                          Never liked Beted and always thought Randy was the scamming type.

                                          D+ book now.
                                          Originally posted by SBR_John
                                          AAO = good dude. Buying you a drink in Vegas buddy.
                                          Comment
                                          • DeluxeLiner
                                            SBR MVP
                                            • 01-29-08
                                            • 4132

                                            #22
                                            If BetEd decides to not pay this guy off then they might lose a lot of future business because a lot of posters will take their business elsewhere, as well as people who come across this site looking for some information about the various gambling sites.
                                            Comment
                                            • Santo
                                              SBR MVP
                                              • 09-08-05
                                              • 2957

                                              #23
                                              With all the facts it looks pretty comprehensive for the player. I somewhat agree with John, in that if #3 (the e-wallet 'collection') could feasibly be investigated and proved, then the players motivation could be taken into account, but that kind of information probably isn't available to SBR without the player being forthcoming.
                                              Comment
                                              • gm2022
                                                SBR MVP
                                                • 02-28-08
                                                • 4128

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Dark Horse
                                                Justin clearly identified the flaws in their system, of which only a very small portion of the public will now be aware. Instead of fixing those flaws, and thereby become a more trustworthy book, Beted seems to have chosen to not change anything and defend itself on a case-by-case basis. How convenient.

                                                And it also arrogantly places itself above SBR arbitration; in itself a telling move, especially in light of how top rated books act on SBR's suggestions.

                                                Also, I believe they were caught in a flat out lie. If I remember correctly they defended their confiscation of funds in a previous case (sexygamblerchick) by assuring everyone that it worked both ways and that losing players would be refunded if the paperwork didn't match. We now know that this is not true.

                                                They're setting people up, and will lie when it serves their purpose. They refuse to be held accountable, and are not interested in creating a safer gambling environment for players. They're blaming everyone else with unproven allegations -players, and even SBR for lack of objectivity-, rather than take an objective look at themselves. I feel sorry for them.

                                                Based on Justin's analysis, and Beted's response, I believe that the public should be warned that this is a scambook, and the only way to do that is to downgrade them to D or lower. Their trap is set. Put a big red flag right next to it. Otherwise it's just a matter of time before this story repeats.
                                                +1, Books like this making me so fking pissed off.(and it didnt even happen to me) I know theres lots of lines that have been crossed ect. But like DH said for not paying this 7k, which they now will keep, there going to lose a lot more clients(at least anyone on sbr whos reads this) and I know that money they lose in the long run will be a lot more than 7k.

                                                Also I know this is almost irelivant to this point but shouldnt the player get back at least the 50 bucks? Sorry if that was pointed out already.
                                                Comment
                                                • Iwinyourmoney
                                                  SBR Posting Legend
                                                  • 04-18-07
                                                  • 18368

                                                  #25
                                                  I disagree about the fraud thing.

                                                  If I have a history of stabbing people, but I have a pocket knife, does that mean Im going to stab someone?

                                                  If I have a history of speeding, does that mean a cop should follow me until I speed?

                                                  If there is a collection on there, Beted should pay the collection + 6% interest and pay the dude his winnings.
                                                  Comment
                                                  • pavyracer
                                                    SBR Aristocracy
                                                    • 04-12-07
                                                    • 82592

                                                    #26
                                                    Excellent work by Justin7. I would also recommend that for every month that BetEd fails to pay the player they get an additional downgrade till they get the lowest possible rating. Also the decision should be stickied on the the front of PT with bold letters for everyone to read and avoid Beted like the plague.
                                                    Comment
                                                    • robmpink
                                                      SBR Posting Legend
                                                      • 01-09-07
                                                      • 13205

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Justin7
                                                      No. They're still free-rolling the player.

                                                      The point of that note is that SBR gained extra information from posters. When we pursued this, we found out more, and this had a significant impact on the result of this case.

                                                      Information is power.


                                                      misremembered
                                                      Last edited by robmpink; 02-15-09, 09:05 PM.
                                                      Comment
                                                      • Justin7
                                                        SBR Hall of Famer
                                                        • 07-31-06
                                                        • 8577

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by robmpink
                                                        Justin, next time you gain extra info from posters you should think about passing a simple thank you to them. I do regret speaking up because it just isn't worth it. I don't mean in a financial way either.
                                                        Sorry, robmpink. Thanks for the info - you made a big difference in this case.
                                                        Comment
                                                        • Justin7
                                                          SBR Hall of Famer
                                                          • 07-31-06
                                                          • 8577

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by SBR_John
                                                          Its a fine write up. Justin you really put in an incredible effort on these disputes.

                                                          I agree with the majority. However issue 3 I'm not 100% comfortable with. IF BetEd can prove this player has a pattern of fraudlent activety it should be investigated by SBR even if it does not relate to this case. For example what if we later learned this was a serial scammer? Would all 3 issues and opinions be held the same as they are now? Having said that I think its highly unlikely a guy who deposits 50 bucks under his Dad's name is trying to pull a scam. Hopefully the smart thing will be done here by the sportsbook and we can all move on.
                                                          If BetEd offered to prove he had a pattern of fraudulent activity, I agree. They didn't offer to prove this, and the primary source (the E-Wallet) could not be substantiated or go on record. The only thing BetEd could show was that there was a collection attempt.
                                                          Comment
                                                          • purecarnagge
                                                            SBR MVP
                                                            • 10-05-07
                                                            • 4843

                                                            #30
                                                            What does Ewallet have to do with a e-check though... Sorry there two different methods.
                                                            Comment
                                                            • Santo
                                                              SBR MVP
                                                              • 09-08-05
                                                              • 2957

                                                              #31
                                                              They are different methods, the point of the collection is that it may speak to the players motive (that he has a history of trying to scam books) which could change the interpretation of the deposit attempt. Though, in this case with it only being $50, it is perhaps unlikely.
                                                              Comment
                                                              • sickler
                                                                SBR Posting Legend
                                                                • 06-05-08
                                                                • 15006

                                                                #32
                                                                Too bad there isn't a universal system in place where a player's funds are verified as legit before any wagering takes place on the account.

                                                                Books are freerolling players when the verification process only occurs once the player requests a withdrawal. Player busts out and funds are ghandi. Sad....
                                                                Comment
                                                                • pavyracer
                                                                  SBR Aristocracy
                                                                  • 04-12-07
                                                                  • 82592

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Well if your credit history is bad you get a higher interest rate for the car loan but you still get a loan. Are we expecting now all offshore gamblers to have a perfect FICO score to withdraw their winnings? This is absurd!
                                                                  Comment
                                                                  • Peep
                                                                    SBR MVP
                                                                    • 06-23-08
                                                                    • 2295

                                                                    #34
                                                                    This story is getting around. It got picked up by the auto bot we use at OGD.
                                                                    Comment
                                                                    • Boner_18
                                                                      SBR Hall of Famer
                                                                      • 08-24-08
                                                                      • 8301

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Love the write up, I guess briefing cases in lawschool is good for something.
                                                                      Comment
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