$3.89 for gas......... was $4.59 last month

[FadeThePublic]

I'm not voting for either, but what exactly is Obama going to do to save this country?

Just to name a few.. Lower taxes for middle and lower income families, Fix the health care problem, Fix NAFTA, help get the troops out of iraq, invest in alternative energies, etc.

[losturmarbles]

... the value of gold has risen to record levels also.
...

come on dagger, you can do better than that

how do you measure the value of gold? supply and demand?
gold isn't consumed. its held. the comparison of supply vs demand tells you nothing about the price. there is no gold supply deficit to influence the price.

read this to understand what i'm talking about:
THE MYTH OF THE GOLD SUPPLY DEFICIT

[jtuck]

Obama will change things asshole. Give the guy a chance. It's people like you that are the reason Bush got elected to 2 terms. Grow up and learn something about politics.

What is Obama going to change and how is he going to do it? Its all i want to know. I never voted for bush and wont be voting for McCain so not sure how ppl like me got bush elected either.

Edit: I see you answered it. I could go without the insults though, kinda hard to tell me to grow up when you are calling me an asshole for asking.

[SlappyWhite]

The only fallacy is a neo-con trying to minimize the impact of an very expensive war (second in costs to only WWII) on the impact of our economy and the devaluing of our currency.

The fact of the matter is, if not for Bush's policies of ignoring catastrophic terrorist attacks and starting meaningless wars, oil prices would not be where they are.

Blaming government expenditure on social services is a typicial neocon nitwit ideology.

If you weren't so blind you would realize that in no way am I a neo-con. I was simply pointing out your lies.

[daggerkobe]

I'm not voting for either, but what exactly is Obama going to do to save this country?

Forget what he will do, and think what he won't do. He won't outlaw sportsbetting and he won't keep wasting money and manpower in a quagmire that is Iraq.

[jtuck]

Forget what he will do, and think what he won't do. He won't outlaw sportsbetting and he won't keep wasting money and manpower in a quagmire that is Iraq.

Sportsbetting will never be outlawed, too much money there to be funnelled to the politicians. Iraq is a tricky deal but i will say it was stupid to go in there in the first place. I have no clue what affects it has on America and what the situation is over there outside of what i hear from the media spin. And that goes for both conservative radio and liberal tv.

[daggerkobe]

My lies?

So the war in Iraq isn't the 2nd costliest in US history?
Bush's policies has not contributed to record national deficits and energy prices?

Oh yeah it must be the welfare programs that is causing all of this.

[ryanXL977]

This is an example is disingenuous liberal logic. If you measure the war as a percentage of GDP, Iraq is actually the least expensive war we have ever fought. If you use that formula and look at the remainder of how our money is spent, government handouts and interest paid to our lenders on the national debt make up the three largest expenditures. Obama's speending plans are about 25% higher than McCains both plan to add astonishing government services with no real idea of how to pay for them. We will have more debt and more interest. In ~3 years we will be paying more in interest than any other expenditure. Both candidates are taking us towards fiscal failure, Obama's plan just gets us there slightly faster.

Bob Barr and Ron Paul actually are the only ones that won't drive the titanic into the iceberg willingly.

why would anyone measure the war in prcntage of gdp, bc thats the only way that the price tag looks small

get a better talking point

[ryanXL977]

can someone tell me how the tv media is liberal?
and can someone tell me anything, ANYThing, a conservative has ever done to improve the world or the lives of americans

keeping homos from getting married and making up wars dont count
nor does raping the environment

[SlappyWhite]

its not a talking point, the claim being made by you and kobe is that the war is making our economy suck, so measuring it as a percentage of GDP is perfectly correct.

[FadeThePublic]

What is Obama going to change and how is he going to do it? Its all i want to know. I never voted for bush and wont be voting for McCain so not sure how ppl like me got bush elected either.

Edit: I see you answered it. I could go without the insults though, kinda hard to tell me to grow up when you are calling me an asshole for asking.

If all the people that didn't vote in 2000 and 2004 would've just voted for Al Gore or John Kerry maybe the results would've been different. we wouldn't be in the hell that we are now. Bush is a disgrace to this country.

Edit:I got a lil angry so I edited the vulgarities because I figure everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if your wrong.

[ryanXL977]

i didnt say that, he did
but i agree
the effects of this war havent even been felt yet
in about 10+ years you guys wont recognize this country
it will never end
these pointless stupid endless wars will never end, and as long as people say, oh, its only 3% of gdp, as if that means its ok or not harmful, we are ****ed

[jtuck]

can someone tell me how the tv media is liberal?

Thats liking asking how talk radio is conservative. The majority of hosts, at least on CNN and especially MSNBC are very liberal.

and can someone tell me anything, ANYThing, a conservative has ever done to improve the world or the lives of americans

Pretty much all the conservatives of the last 20 years have done is lower taxes and kept the government out of running people's lives.

I'm sure there is a list coming up of how republicans have screwed up things over the years, and the majority of them wont be able to be disputed. At the end of the day modern democrats suck, modern republicans suck, and the libertarians nominated Bob Barr.

[losturmarbles]

Forget what he will do, and think what he won't do. He won't outlaw sportsbetting and he won't keep wasting money and manpower in a quagmire that is Iraq.

obama and mccain both would be in favor of legalizing online betting, and have the government regulate it, and tax it.
there's already bills in congress that has proposed this, and has conveniently already appropriated the tax revenue to various government handouts. and they will both jump at the chance to get credit for passing it. buying votes isn't easy, or is it? this would be a double win, you get the gambling man's vote and you get tax money to buy someone else vote. so i say fck em both. if you want to legalize it, then legalize because it's your god given right when it comes to your person or property, but government encouraging individuality instead of dependency? never going to happen.

and obama bringing the troops home, don't count on it. there's always double talk on topics like this. if democrats were really serious about bringing the troops home, it wouldve already happened. They have used the political favor of being against the war for at least the last 3 years. do they want to really bring the troops home? or do they just want credit for it when it happens?

[daggerkobe]

Jtuck,

How can you be so certain sportsbetting won't be outlawed? People thought the same about Internet gambling until UIGEA passed and Bush signed it into law.

I'd rather vote for someone who thinks gambling is a low priority than someone who tried to pass a law to ban it.

[ryanXL977]

the consevratives have kept govt out of peoples lives? is that serious?

and lowering taxes doesnt mean much if your economic policies lower the value of the dollar by a much bigger number than lowering taxes increases net income

our dollar vs other currencies far outpaces the 1% tax cut most people get from bush

if you guys want to stomach wars and lies so you can get a couple extra grand per year, thats on yoru conscience

what will your tax cuts be worth when the value of the dollar is about 50% of what it was when bush took over

ps. if you think the gop has cut govt or kept it out of people lives, you havent read much of the patriot act. come on people. it isnt liberal vs consverative, its common sense

who on cnn is liberal? i mean, they went after kerry , gore, obama

i would love to hear how tv networks are liberal.

[SlappyWhite]

Jtuck,

How can you be so certain sportsbetting won't be outlawed? People thought the same about Internet gambling until UIGEA passed and Bush signed it into law.

I'd rather vote for someone who thinks gambling is a low priority than someone who tried to pass a law to ban it.

Any president would have signed it into law it was attached to a spending bill with a bunch of shit he wanted, and gamblers make up a piss small part of the voters so no one gives a shit about them. Its just like ****ing over smokers, no one cares but the smokers, and they are to small to mater.

This country survive either one because neither of them wants to address the real problem, out of control spending.

[jtuck]

Jtuck,

How can you be so certain sportsbetting won't be outlawed? People thought the same about Internet gambling until UIGEA passed and Bush signed it into law.

I'd rather vote for someone who thinks gambling is a low priority than someone who tried to pass a law to ban it.

The democrats will have a huge edge in the house and senate after next election, McCain wont be able to pass anything to strenthen the current restrictions, unless they make a crooked deal with the democrats in some unrelated bill that ends up screwing the people over, which i guess is actually very likely.

[SlappyWhite]

Conservatives inject government via morality laws, Liberals inject it via wealth redistribution and special rights.

Both can burn in hell.

[ryanXL977]

i am not defending democrats
but this is bush's war
shame on half the dems for backing down, but at least half of them voted against it
and no gop did

****ing cowards

911 is the best thing to ever happen to the gop
scoundrels
the founding fathers would have personally slit the throats of bush, rice, and cheney

these are the enemies of america
its right there in front of us

[SlappyWhite]

career politicians are the enemy of america

[jtuck]

the consevratives have kept govt out of peoples lives? is that serious?

and lowering taxes doesnt mean much if your economic policies lower the value of the dollar by a much bigger number than lowering taxes increases net income

our dollar vs other currencies far outpaces the 1% tax cut most people get from bush

if you guys want to stomach wars and lies so you can get a couple extra grand per year, thats on yoru conscience

what will your tax cuts be worth when the value of the dollar is about 50% of what it was when bush took over

ps. if you think the gop has cut govt or kept it out of people lives, you havent read much of the patriot act. come on people. it isnt liberal vs consverative, its common sense

who on cnn is liberal? i mean, they went after kerry , gore, obama

i would love to hear how tv networks are liberal.

I'm against the patriot act, but it doesnt do one thing to control your life, unless you are a terrorist. Now you can't talk about blowing things up over the phone.

[FadeThePublic]

Whatever happened to the weapons of mass destruction? That was bush's sole purpose for invading iraq. Not one single WMD has been found to this day. This war is the biggest waste of money... BILLIONS AND BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars.

[ryanXL977]

that fact that any phone call i make, any bank wire i make, any time any govt official wants to enter my house, he can, is enough for me

this is america dude, we left england to get away from that shit
and now an entire party (gop) supports taking away the very things (states rights, individual rights) that formed the goddamned party!

[daggerkobe]

Comparing war costs to GNP is ridiculous considering inflation-adjusted pricing and how the costs are defined. Even the Congressional Research Service that did the study says it would be difficult to compare war costs this way.

Just another neocon trick.

[jtuck]

Whatever happened to the weapons of mass destruction? That was bush's sole purpose for invading iraq. Not one single WMD has been found to this day. This war is the biggest waste of money... BILLIONS AND BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars.

No one is arguing that. Anyone who says we had enough reason to go into Iraq gets 100% of their political info from Shawn Hannity.

[reno cool]

Forget what he will do, and think what he won't do. He won't outlaw sportsbetting and he won't keep wasting money and manpower in a quagmire that is Iraq.

Yes, I would be perfectly happy for them to stay home and do nothing. Lets put them on welfare. What was the last good law passed? How many more laws do we need, really?

[ryanXL977]

Comparing war costs to GNP is ridiculous considering inflation-adjusted pricing and how the costs are defined. Even the Congressional Research Service that did the study says it would be difficult to compare war costs this way.

Just another neocon trick.

its just a talking point from people who dont even understand gdp
how does gdp affect me, how does debt? how does the war?

they all do, but people see , oooh, tax cuts

they dont stop to realize the value of their dollar has dropped a helluva lot more than the tax cash they were given to shut up and be quiet

[SlappyWhite]

Comparing war costs to GNP is ridiculous considering inflation-adjusted pricing and how the costs are defined. Even the Congressional Research Service that did the study says it would be difficult to compare war costs this way.

Just another neocon trick.

so you spent like an hour googling and you couldn't find a way to dispute the way to correctly compare all past economies and this is the best you can do?

Open liberal play book...
Question What if I can't defeat the idea?
Answer Attack the person call them a neocon even though you have no idea what it is, no one likes to be called a neocon.

GNP when discussing economic impact is the only way to measure but based on your intelligent posts and your ability to form a cogent argument I am sure you would be more then willing to sell me everything you own at 1950's prices, not adjusted for inflation.

[ryanXL977]

what does liberal even mean to you? what liberal playbook says made up war as % of gdp is invalid

seriously, where is the liberal playobook and what does liberal mean


who feeds you this stuff

[SlappyWhite]

its just a talking point from people who dont even understand gdp
how does gdp affect me, how does debt? how does the war?

they all do, but people see , oooh, tax cuts

they dont stop to realize the value of their dollar has dropped a helluva lot more than the tax cash they were given to shut up and be quiet

Thats the point of using GDP and inflation. The war costs billions but the dollars are worth crap compared to the past so what does the war really cost? A percentage of GDP removes the $ and compares percent of the income versus the cost.

A house payment for you might be 500 bucks is that expensive or cheap? You can't answer the question without knowing your earnings ie GDP. Its pretty fuking simple.

[daggerkobe]

Losturmarbles,

McCain is anti-gambling. If you think he'll change his stance to garner more votes forget about it. Not even his fellow neocons are as radical as he is when it comes to wanting it outlawed.

I seem to recall Clinton bringing home the US soldiers shipped to Somalia by Bush SR, who had promises to bring them all home by Clintons inauguration by didn't. So why can't Obama?

[ryanXL977]

how does gdp affect me? bc i sure as shit know how the dollar, oil, and made up bullshit wars affect me

ps. i dont care if a war is .00001% of gdp, if its bullshit and lies, its wrong

[SlappyWhite]

how does gdp affect me? bc i sure as shit know how the dollar, oil, and made up bullshit wars affect me

ps. i dont care if a war is .00001% of gdp, if its bullshit and lies, its wrong

those are all valid feelings and I don't have an issue with any of them, where i have an issue is when people say ending the war will fix <insert any economic problem>
without understanding the economic impact of the war.

[ryanXL977]

oh, we have a million problems besides war
hell, war is the only way we even have an economy anymore

sadly enough