[blankoblanco]

I think I finally did it John! Force City, population: robert sawyers

[JohnGalt2341]

25 Point Hexversi challenge

Looks like I'm going to have to make these a little bit harder. Let's try this one. What's the best move?

In this game you can see that Purple already has a corner and Green does not. I sacrificed a corner a few moves earlier in order to gain a move and maintain superior position. These types of games I call "grinders". Meaning... you can grind out a win by sacrificing a corner in order to gain a move and keep superior position.

[JohnGalt2341]

I think I finally did it John! Force City, population: robert sawyers

Nice work! Looks like you're going get the tapout at move #27. That's really good. After that... it should be easy for you. I always try to think of creative ways of maximizing my piece count after running my opponents out of moves. I'll predict around 72-18 if he doesn't resign.

The way you and Daniel seem to be progressing... I'm looking forward to seeing a rematch

[blankoblanco]

25 Point Hexversi challenge

Looks like I'm going to have to make these a little bit harder. Let's try this one. What's the best move?

In this game you can see that Purple already has a corner and Green does not. I sacrificed a corner a few moves earlier in order to gain a move and maintain superior position. These types of games I call "grinders". Meaning... you can grind out a win by sacrificing a corner in order to gain a move and keep superior position.

Hmmm. My very first instinct was to want to take 5 before purple can take 4. If they take 4 first they can just flip our piece on 5 if we ever take it

So... if we take 5 then purple... only has 4 or 6? Both of which gives us lower left corner.

Yea 5 looks like the move to me but I might have missed something, this position was trickier. I explored the lower right and upper left corners a bit but couldn't find anything that worked

[JohnGalt2341]

Hmmm. My very first instinct was to want to take 5 before purple can take 4. If they take 4 first they can just flip our piece on 5 if we ever take it

So... if we take 5 then purple... only has 4 or 6? Both of which gives us lower left corner.

Yea 5 looks like the move to me but I might have missed something, this position was trickier. I explored the lower right and upper left corners a bit but couldn't find anything that worked

Nailed it again. You're good! Your endgame should be REALLY strong after you have a couple more games under your belt. My biggest strengths are playing the sides and my endgame. Playing the sides is probably the hardest part to learn and really difficult to teach. Now that I know that you have the gist of this... I'm going to try to find some REALLY challenging positions to post. I also wanted to illustrate how common it is to have a "low score" even late in the game and be able to "come back" and still win easily.

I was expecting to lose at least a few hundred points on the division winners but I think I got every single one right except for Ryan. So... I don't mind giving away these 25 point challenges. But I'm going to try to find some really hard ones now.

Below is the final board from #177.

[blankoblanco]

Nice!

I appreciate all the point incentives, John! Helps make it more fun and competitive

But mostly I think it's really cool to be introduced to a new game that I never would've discovered otherwise. The strategy is very deep and complex

[JohnGalt2341]

25 Point Hexversi challenge

Below is a game that I lost vs FGYTPeti where I am Purple. I was playing well and was on my way to victory until I made a mistake on the move below. What's the best move for Purple?


I'm going to make this a 2 part challenge, 25 points each, with FGY's next move in the 2nd part. Not only did I make a mistake on the move above but FGY also capitalized on my mistake by playing his next move perfectly which ultimately cost me to lose a very close game. I'll post the next part later.

[recoveringlawyer]

game looks fascinating. just what i needed, another time sink

[Daniel Espinosa]

Om not sire at all. Im probably missing some things, but lots of moves give up corners, so those would be dismiss. Then you have 9,10 and 11 which seem like safe moves.

So I will say 10.

[JohnGalt2341]

Om not sire at all. Im probably missing some things, but lots of moves give up corners, so those would be dismiss. Then you have 9,10 and 11 which seem like safe moves.

So I will say 10.

Well done! I would have accepted either 10 or 11. I think both would have led me to victory. I chose 8 and it cost me the game and you're about to see why. Below is the follow up for another 25 points. What's the best move for Green?

[JohnGalt2341]

game looks fascinating. just what i needed, another time sink

New to SBR? Either way... feel free to sign up at http://itsyourturn.com if you want to give Hexversi a try. It's free. It's a fascinating game indeed... at least I think it is.

Btw, I really like the thread you started "What country are you?". Original, out of the box type threads are usually my favorite on SBR. I'm not very worldly so... I will have to think about my answer for a while.

Also... this type of thinking(original/out of the box) usually makes for good Hexversi players.

[Daniel Espinosa]

Nice ty!

Here 6 seems like the best option to me (although Im still not sure how much I overvalue the wall im this game).

[JohnGalt2341]

Nice ty!

Here 6 seems like the best option to me (although Im still not sure how much I overvalue the wall im this game).

Good guess but incorrect.

The biggest thing with the walls/sides is playing them correctly. This is probably the hardest part of the game to learn. I tend to play the walls/sides slightly less than my opponents but it's not because I'm against having pieces on the walls. It's just that I don't play them unless the move is good. This part is very difficult to learn and to teach. There are lots of players going into the next round that are very good players but they make mistakes on playing the walls. Really good players will make them pay for those mistakes.

[blankoblanco]

5 and 7 seem like the only other viable options? I we take 5 purple can just take above that and I'm not exactly sure what it accomplishes (I couldn't find anything that led to a forced corner)

I'll try 7. It doesn't seem like a blow out move or anything but it gives possible access to that spot above 5 and below 6 which could be useful for getting the corner later? I'm probably missing something though

[JohnGalt2341]

Correct answer is #8 as seen below.

Now I'm in a terrible position. I either have to give up a corner and likely lose the game, or take the side and sacrifice 3 potential moves because I have to flip those 3 inside pieces which I don't want to do. I took the side but I'm not certain that I made the right choice.

The spots with X's above were entirely mine a couple of moves ago. Now they are entirely his. That's a game changer in a close game like this. Below is what the final board looked like.

I haven't played the guy above in over 2 years because he's mostly a regular Reversi player. I'm on a 4-0 run against him after we split our first 4 games. I definitely expect him to be in the finals. It'll be interesting for me to see if he gets better at Hexversi which would be scary. Most regular Reversi players skill level stays about the same after transitioning to Hexversi as it did with Toptal and myself. Even after we've played several hundred games of Hexversi our skill level is about the same as our first few games because of our prior Reversi experience. It's because we already understand the theory... and the theory is basically the same from game to game. But with brand new players like... blanko and Daniel... I think the skill level could change dramatically in the first 10 to 20 games. I know this is all very geeky and what not but I find all of it very interesting. It's been a really long time since I taught anyone new how to play this game. I have high hopes for you guys if you continue to play this game.

[blankoblanco]

Ahh, nice one. I saw that if green took 8 purple would need to respond as you did to prevent a corner but I didn't look the move ahead and realize what a bad position that puts us in. Makes complete sense though

[blankoblanco]

I'm playing all kinds of sloppy against sawyers, wasted moves that I could have just saved for later. Was just weird and unfamiliar for me to be in such a dominant position so I got too eager lol. I also see what I probably should've done last move

I don't think it will affect the outcome of the game at this point, just more stuff to learn from

[JohnGalt2341]

I'm playing all kinds of sloppy against sawyers, wasted moves that I could have just saved for later. Was just weird and unfamiliar for me to be in such a dominant position so I got too eager lol. I also see what I probably should've done last move

I don't think it will affect the outcome of the game at this point, just more stuff to learn from

I just looked in after move #30. You're doing fine. Once you run your opponent out of moves you can usually afford to play a little sloppy. In fact, in most of my games I usually intentionally give my opponents moves so they don't have to skip a turn. This will speed up the game. There's sort of an art to doing this. You just give them one or 2 moves at a time while you fill the board up with your own pieces.

You mentioned "saved for later". This is HUGE. Learning how to "save" moves is a very useful skill in this game. I do this in more games than not. I create a move for myself that I can save for later. Then I use up all my other good moves until I don't have a good move... and then I use my saved move. I've won lots of games with this trick alone. I see you have several saved moves in your game right now... and you don't even need them. This game should be a beatdown. I think you have a pretty good chance of getting in the low 70's.

[JohnGalt2341]

25 Point Hexversi challenge

The best move in this one is debatable but I wanted show an example of something here because it's something you will see often. So... in this one... just guess where I(Green) moved.

[blankoblanco]

Hmm I'm not seeing anything that sticks out a lot. 8, 9, 10, and 11 all will give him a corner so I suppose those are out. 1 through 4 open up more moves for the opponent and it's unclear to me what we'd gain from any of them

If it was me I'd probably just go 7. It's a space I like to take and it turns the move to the right of it into a trap for him that maybe we can force later. Probably not the best move but it's all I'm seeing

[JohnGalt2341]

Hmm I'm not seeing anything that sticks out a lot. 8, 9, 10, and 11 all will give him a corner so I suppose those are out. 1 through 4 open up more moves for the opponent and it's unclear to me what we'd gain from any of them

If it was me I'd probably just go 7. It's a space I like to take and it turns the move to the right of it into a trap for him that maybe we can force later. Probably not the best move but it's all I'm seeing

Good guess, but no. 7 is actually a pretty bad move but it's a common mistake for many players. I'll give Daniel at least 12 hours to take a guess at this one and I'll attempt to explain why 7 is a bad(but very common mistake even among good players) move.

[blankoblanco]

Kinda glad I was wrong, sounds like there's a lesson there I need to learn

[Daniel Espinosa]

I think the same as blanko here. 8, 9, 10, 11 are totally dismiss. In this spot I would have insta-taken 7 or 6 (again, I probably overvalue walls and Im sure I have no clue if Im playing correctly).

So, I will say 6. Although Im probably missing something about 1, 2, 3, 4 and/or 5.

[blankoblanco]

So is at always a max of 2 challenged games you can have at once on the ladder? Both my opponents are playing really slow right now so I wish I could add another

[JohnGalt2341]

First off, I want say that #6 is an excellent choice. When I said that the best move is debatable I was talking about 6 and the move I chose. The difference between move 6 and 7 is huge even though they appear to be very similar. This is something that most players never learn. I will attempt to explain the difference between the 2 at the end of this post. But first let's look at the move that I chose, #9.

At first glance this may look like a terrible move because I am giving up a corner. But if you look further you can see that as soon as Purple takes the corner I can take #1 as seen above. I'll be wedged in, so this will then give me my own corner in #2. But what makes Green's corner superior to Purple's corner is I can work from my corner and Purple cannot. Purple got 5 permanent pieces from getting the corner and that's it. Green also gets 5 permanent pieces with a very good potential to get at least 4 more permanent pieces. All I have to do to do this is, after I take the corner I will work on taking the spots where the X's are. Eventually Green will have to work in that direction and once this happens I can work on the lower wall/side as well which will be permanent.

I call these types of games Grinders. If you know what you are doing you can win a grinder every single time if you are the one that initiates it. You just have to make sure that your opponent will only get 5 permanent pieces when you sacrifice a corner and make sure that you will be getting AT LEAST 5 permanent pieces from your sacrifice.

All of this is possible because Purple had 2 unbalanced edges. Unbalanced edges are generally pretty bad to have in most games. There are times when they are acceptable but I'll explain that in another post as it is very difficult to explain.

So what is an unbalanced edge? There are generally 4 types of ways you can own(it's all you with none of your opponents pieces) a side, not counting the corners, meaning before the corners are taken. There is a Balanced Edge... meaning you have all 4 pieces in between the corners. There is an Open 2, meaning you have the spots next to either corner and the 2 pieces in the middle are empty. There is the closed 2, meaning you have the 2 middle pieces and the spots next to either corner are empty. And then there is the Unbalanced Edge meaning you have 3 of the 4 spots in between the corners. The unbalanced edge is most definitely the worst of the 4 because it is easily exploitable as seen above.

In the game above, you can see that Purple has 2 unbalanced edges. This did not happen by chance. Purple played both sides incorrectly and I forced them into those unbalanced edges. This is sort of a specialty of mine. Not many players know how to do this but it's really quite simple. The reason why move 7 is bad in post 194 is because if Green takes 7, and Purple takes 6 and Green takes the side, Green will now have an unbalanced edge. However, if Green takes 6 and Purple takes 7 and Green takes the side, spot 5 is still empty. This is huge because there is nowhere to wedge in because spot 5 is still open. Even if purple eventually takes spot 5 Green still has the chance to balance the edge. I realize this is probably sort of confusing. But if you can learn this part of the game... I think you guys could compete with just about anyone on this site in a very short period of time.

I need to emphasize that I don't seek out nor do I avoid playing the sides. I take a side if I know I can't be forced into an unbalanced edge. But if I can be forced into an unbalanced edge I won't take a side. More times than not, my opponents will take sides when they shouldn't have and then I force them into an unbalanced edge. If they choose not to take the unbalanced edge you can take it yourself. Your side will be unbalanced at this point, but... there should be an empty spot which means you can balance it later, AND you got 2 free moves in the process. Again... I know this is probably confusing but this is something very few players understand and if they did... my record probably wouldn't be anywhere near what it is.

Once you guys get a few games under your belt... I'll show you some examples in your own games after they are completed. I hope I made at least a little bit of sense here...

If you have any questions... feel free to ask.

[JohnGalt2341]

So is at always a max of 2 challenged games you can have at once on the ladder? Both my opponents are playing really slow right now so I wish I could add another

Yeah, once you move up the Ladder people will start to challenge you. I almost always have 2 challenges from players going at once. I have an open challenge right now myself... meaning... if you are up for it I can challenge you to a game right now. Let me know.... or else you can just wait until someone else challenges you.

I used to look at the Reversi Ladders and challenge people to regular Hexversi games. Some will accept and others won't. But if you challenge enough people.... there will be people that will accept. You just can't challenge more than 2 people to Ladder games.

[blankoblanco]

Wow, nice post John. I hadn't even considered the possibility of trading a corner that can't develop further for a better corner. I'll have to keep an eye out for that

And damn, I've been making unbalanced edges quite a bit. Didn't realize how punishable it was

[blankoblanco]

Yeah, once you move up the Ladder people will start to challenge you. I almost always have 2 challenges from players going at once. I have an open challenge right now myself... meaning... if you are up for it I can challenge you to a game right now. Let me know.... or else you can just wait until someone else challenges you.

I used to look at the Reversi Ladders and challenge people to regular Hexversi games. Some will accept and others won't. But if you challenge enough people.... there will be people that will accept. You just can't challenge more than 2 people to Ladder games.

I think I'm gonna need to get a lot better at this game before I can take you on

I'll stick to people I have a chance against for now

[JohnGalt2341]

25 Point Hexversi challenge


Below is a game between two future Hexversi Black Belts. It may look familiar to you. What's the best move for Purple?

[blankoblanco]

Well, it's definitely not what I did. I was completely lost

Does it have to do with the unbalanced edge on the left side? If green ever takes top left corner, purple can take 5 and get the other corner

If purple takes 6 can this exchange of corners eventually be forced? Seems like a lot of green's moves can be responded to by purple without creating more

No idea if I'm even on the right track...

[Daniel Espinosa]

I will say 7 so green is tempted to take the unbalanced edge.

So it is not clear to me, is it better to have the unbalanced edge at all or not? I mean, if you force your opponent to take the unblanced edge, do you gain an advantage? Or is it more like "well he has a tiny edge now it could have been worse"?

[blankoblanco]

Yeah, 7 would've been my other guess, but if green doesn't comply and take the edge then I wasn't sure what it accomplished. I thought 6 was ultimately more limiting to green's moves (but there's a good chance I'm wrong)

[JohnGalt2341]

6 isn't a terrible move but 7 is much better. Here's why, if you move in spot 6 and Green takes the corner and you wedge in and take your own corner you will definitely have outplayed him in the sequence but on the left hand side it's all Purple which means you can't build from that corner until Green moves over there. In post 200 when Green wedges in and takes the corner Green can immediately work to build from that corner because it's all Purple. So, in post 200 it is much more beneficial for Green to make the sacrifice than it is for Purple to do it post 204, if that makes sense.

Here's why 7 is MUCH better. If Green chooses to take the side, Green will now have 2 unbalanced edges next to each other. This is VERY bad for Green because if Purple sacrifices the upper right corner now Purple can wedge in and get both the upper left corner AND the far left corner. Make sense? However, even if Green chooses not to take the side, Purple can take the side and although he will now have an unbalanced edge himself he got 2 free moves in the process while Green is wasting moves elsewhere. This is huge. Even if Green takes #6 after Purple takes the side, Green will be putting both him and Purple at exactly equal risk. AND, Purple will still have gotten 2 moves in the sequence vs only 1 for Green... and that's only if you are counting if Green takes move 6. I realize this is kind of confusing. It's very difficult to explain.

To answer your question in post #206 Daniel, it is VERY good for you to force your opponent into an unbalanced edge. However, if your opponent chooses not to take the unbalanced edge it is okay for you to take it. The reason is because you are getting 2 free moves in the sequence while your opponent has to waste moves elsewhere. Also, most of the time when your opponent chooses not to take the unbalanced edge and you take it yourself you will have what I call an unbalanced 6 which is not nearly as bad because it can only be exploited from one angle. This is not the case in the game above but it is the case in post #190. Look at Purple's unbalanced edge in post 190. It can only be exploited from one angle. Green can't go in that middle spot to properly exploit Purple's unbalanced edge so it's really not that bad most of the time. Green's only immediate move in post 190 is to give Purple the corner.

There are also times when either Green or Purple will have one spot on a side and you have the option of either grabbing a spot on the side yourself or trying to force your opponent into an unbalanced edge. I usually just grab a spot on the side in most of these cases. I don't mind sharing a side with my opponent. I haven't posted any examples of this yet but I probably will in the next few days.

All of this is really difficult to explain and understand so don't feel bad if you don't quite get it. Honestly, I think I might be the only person on this site that understands the unbalanced edges in Hexversi really well. There are unbalanced edges in regular Reversi and 6x6 as well but in regular Reversi they are much simpler. In 6x6 it's also very complex. I've played about as much 6x6 as I have Hexversi and I think that's helped me a lot because there are a lot of similarities. Players like Toptal also have an enormous amount of 6x6 experience. Jon is also a 6x6 player.

I used to watch a lot of MMA and I see a lot of parallels between Hexversi and MMA because almost anyone can be vulnerable to losing. There are many ways to win and to lose. My style of play is very cardio oriented. The later it goes in the game the better off I usually am. When your opponent has 1 or more unbalanced edges... you can think of it like he's really tired. The later it goes in the game the worse off he's going to be. If after 4 rounds in an MMA fight if the fight is close and one fighter is dead tired and the other is fresh... the fresher fighter should usually win. The Hexversi equivalent to that is if late in the game if it's close... the player with the most unbalanced edges is usually going to lose.

If you have any questions feel free to ask. Also, Daniel, I looked in on your game vs Butterbean. You played move 19 beautifully.

[blankoblanco]

Damn, I knew 7 was good if green took the unbalanced edge but I didn't realize it's still good for purple to take it because of the free moves. Simple but eye-opening

[Daniel Espinosa]

Thanks John!

Butterbean has now 3 unbalanced edges. Would you say I am in a better position than him? I thought I was getting owned haha.