How would you play JJ in this spot

[gwiz]

Blinds are 1-3 No limit

Your the small blind with 150 in front of you and the action player from my other No limit thread makes it 20 on the button with 2 limpers in front of him,one who is playing every hand and has the table covered but is capable of laying down his cards and another looser player who is also capable of folding.

call raise or fold

[daneblazer]

How much does the button have?

[flocko76]

fold it faster than superman on laundry day

[nomeansno]

fold it faster than superman on laundry day

Wow dude, stop being such a huge nit

[BeerDog99]

I guess it depends on how much the players have but I would say there is an argument for all three options.

Folding is understandable in the SB with two others act but I would rarely do this.

The Button is probably playing his position to get the dead money.

Calling to set mine is good as long as you think the limpers will just call and if they all have at least 150.

Raising is another option but then your 150 is committed (so it is almost irelavent whether it is 80 or 150). I think I am stating the obvious here, I don't think you really want anybody to call here, just take the pot down here.

Cheers.

[lolguy999]

One who is playing every hand is either running super well or is just a super-donk. I have seen AA KK AK every hand but really that's very rare. He makes it 20 to steal the two limpers and the bb and small blind which in total should be 3 x 3 + 1 = 10 so he's betting 20 for 10 which is quite standard. With JJ you can't call. Calling sends out a clear damn message that you have something good and is either slow playing it or playing AQ AJ or AK. If u just call and check if the button doesn't catch anything he will likely to not bluff at you so that's no good. So the decision is really RAISE or FOLD. If you believe him having a good hand which is possible or the fact that one or both of the limpers might be slowplaying supreme hands fold. If not raise that shit up. Pot will be 20+10=30 so raising to 60, 55, 65 will be options. Then depending on the flop make your move. Button is very likely to have a pair in the situation like 88 or 99 and will not want to risk going up against too many players

[nomeansno]

Not a really good spot to setmine, since you only have 50 bbs, and the raise is about 13% of your stack.
You have to raise and commit yourself, you don't have enough behind to do anything else.

[Kaladarus]

I don't mind any play here. I'm guessing $20 is a standard raise for this guy. It really depends on what you know about your opponents already in the pot. For the most part I prefer to call here. If you can get another player to call you've got a decent pot built up and nice implied odds on the flop. You're going to hit a set 1/6 times and it is likely you'll win a massive pot from a guy that will most likely continuation bet the flop and probably be all in by the river. The limpers are probably very passive and unlikely to reraise preflop. If they do reraise you will have more information based on what the button does and you can go from there. A reraise would be very strong from a limper and can probably get you out of the hand. This would save you a lot of money if you were planning to reraise. Depending on what happens on the flop and how many people called you can decide from there. A typical situation would be one caller and the button. Check the flop and let the button continuation bet. If you hit a set and there's not much danger you can think it through and make a call trying to get more money. If you have a nover pair to the board you should either lead out or reraise his continuation bet and commit yourself. Any other board that doesn't give you any draws or has many over cards you should probably just let go.

I don't really like folding here because of what we know about the button and because he is the button.

A reraise is acceptable. If you do reraise here I would consider moving all in. You are going to be pot committed no matter what and this will likely eliminate good hands from the limpers if they have bigger stacks. The button is more likely to have a weaker than you or a coin flip hand. I don't know all the information on him, but many players typically want action With QQ, KK, and AA and $20 is a big raise with only two limpers having $3 in.

[daneblazer]

. You're going to hit a set 1/6 times

The odds of hitting a set are approximately one out of every 8 hands.

You can't fold here. If you fold this hand you might as well take your chips and go home because you aren't playing poker. You're short stacked so you don't really have good odds to call and play the rest of the hand out of position.

My initial response with limited information is to shove. If this is the action player in the other thread, JJ is crushing his range. You'll win about a 27 chip pot which isn't a bad result and if the button calls you're probably ahead. You just aren't deep enough to have a lot of options.

[levski2006]

lol somebody suggested folding, which is absolutely unreasonable. I believe here u have only one choise- RAISE(AI)! The button is trying to isolate the weak passive calling station in possition with wide range 22+,56s+,any suited king or ace, so when u raise here u will easily take the 30 bucks in the pot!

[boscokid]

lol somebody suggested folding, which is absolutely unreasonable. I believe here u have only one choise- RAISE(AI)! The button is trying to isolate the weak passive calling station in possition with wide range 22+,56s+,any suited king or ace, so when u raise here u will easily take the 30 bucks in the pot!

folding is terrible - calling would be even worse.

a small raise does nothing to help - so, as levski2006 pointed out, you really only have one move here

[daneblazer]

The odds of hitting a set are approximately one out of every 8 hands.

You can't fold here. If you fold this hand you might as well take your chips and go home because you aren't playing poker. You're short stacked so you don't really have good odds to call and play the rest of the hand out of position.

My initial response with limited information is to shove. If this is the action player in the other thread, JJ is crushing his range. You'll win about a 27 chip pot which isn't a bad result and if the button calls you're probably ahead. You just aren't deep enough to have a lot of options.

This hand was bothering me so I asked someone who knows more about short stack poker than me. 3bet for value. You don't want to shove and scare away a worse hand. Then shove any non ace flop. Depends on your read though. More info on the button is nice.

[nomeansno]

lol somebody suggested folding, which is absolutely unreasonable. I believe here u have only one choise- RAISE(AI)! The button is trying to isolate the weak passive calling station in possition with wide range 22+,56s+,any suited king or ace, so when u raise here u will easily take the 30 bucks in the pot!

Why would you want to go allin, and get those hands that you beat fold? You have to raise, so he has a chance to call you, or even push with a weaker range not realizing you're committed.

[Kaladarus]

$150 isn't really a small stack in these games. 50BB is medium stack. Usually the buy-in is $100-$300.

I think many players calling a $60 bet are just as likely to call a $150 bet here. They know the guy betting $60 is probably going to go all in. With $3 invested even bad players are unlikely to call $57 with a worse hand than you. A guy with a coin flip type hand or better can potentially reraise your reraise and isolate you. They'd have good odds with all the dead money in the pot. The reason for going all in is to get rid of the coin flip type hands and scare the limpers if they have bigger stacks than you because of the button.

[Kaladarus]

Why would you want to go allin, and get those hands that you beat fold? You have to raise, so he has a chance to call you, or even push with a weaker range not realizing you're committed.

All hands calling your reraise are either over pairs or over cards. A weaker range is a 45%+ against you almost every time. I'd rather take the dead money in the pot than flip as a very slight favorite.

[BeerDog99]

This hand was bothering me so I asked someone who knows more about short stack poker than me. 3bet for value. You don't want to shove and scare away a worse hand. Then shove any non ace flop. Depends on your read though. More info on the button is nice.

While I know most people have disagreed with an option of folding but I really think it is an option if you do not want to get involved in a hand out of position and/or pot commit yourself with the raise.

Folding it is certainly tight but with a loose game and with two limpers still to act, it might be a reasonable option to pick a better spot with only $1 invested.

3-betting just commits you. If an Ace or King flops, do you check-fold? If you just call, you can still open shove on a non-A/K flop.

[gwiz]

thanks for the responses guys.

I thought calling was the wrong play because I knew the limpers would call behind,they were seeing all flops raise or no raise.

I thought it was between folding and raising and in my situation being averse to playing out of position and not wanting to get overcommitted to a good but not great hand I decided on the weakest play of all.

I knew it wasn't the best play.

But If I raise I am basically committing my stack am I not?

I would have to raise to about 70 which is half my stack and I don't think you are suppose to fold to any flop after that?

[gwiz]

$150 isn't really a small stack in these games. 50BB is medium stack. Usually the buy-in is $100-$300.

I think many players calling a $60 bet are just as likely to call a $150 bet here. They know the guy betting $60 is probably going to go all in. With $3 invested even bad players are unlikely to call $57 with a worse hand than you. A guy with a coin flip type hand or better can potentially re raise your re raise and isolate you. They'd have good odds with all the dead money in the pot. The reason for going all in is to get rid of the coin flip type hands and scare the limpers if they have bigger stacks than you because of the button.

this response and the other by beerdog I just read after posting my thoughts.

good thoughts guys I really appreciate the feedback

The buy in is indeed 100 to 300

I think with less than 100 all in would be the right play but over that is just to much to play this hand in my mind

[borednaz]

Depends on where your playing. In SBR I agree with folding anything as your bound to get a bad beat. Bodog is pretty close second to that. 5dimes (Well you deserve what you get for playing poker there). Live I'd say I agree with everyone it's really just a shove. I'd rather pick up the dead money then have to show down with JJ. I'd also hate to get auto bluffed off it due to a bad flop that may have missed the guy anyways.

[k13]

Just shove and wait for him to fold.

[itriedsohard]

fold or shove if your loose.

[Pajda]

I would probably shove or re raise and shove most of the flops.

[thetrinity]

foldings a joke here.

shoving is probably the best choice, if you flat call, based on your descriptions of the limpers its quite possible you are playing the raiser heads up OOP which is not really what you wanna do with jj.

almost has to be a shove, id think you win the pot pretty much every time here on a shove, if this button raiser is a guy who thinks everyone who makes a big shove all in preflop always got ak and likes to flip with mid pairs for 40-50 more big blinds then i like a shove even more. if he has qq-aa then its just a cooler IMO.

[gwiz]

folding is a joke if you have plenty of money to gamble with but I don't and am looking for better spots to get my stack in than this

the player who raised is the kind of guy who is gonna call and play because that is his style,150 means nothing to him

my style is to see flops and play after I connect,I don't enjoy coin flips for 150

he is someone who plays 2-5 blinds consistently and treats this game as a crap shoot looking to hit

I am not someone who has a lot of experience playing live No limit

most of my No limit experience is online with tough opponents and I am still trying to get comfortable at the live game

[Kaladarus]

foldings a joke here.

shoving is probably the best choice, if you flat call, based on your descriptions of the limpers its quite possible you are playing the raiser heads up OOP which is not really what you wanna do with jj.

Is that such a bad thing with only $130 and $49 in the pot? If at limper calls the pot is $67. It's quite likely a limper will call $17 at a casino. If there are no over cards you can push and take the decent size pot on the flop. If you hit a set you can likely take down a big pot. $20 is not a big investment at all. On a bad flop you lose $20. On a decent flop you most likely will win the $49 or $67. On a good flop you are very likely to double up or at least take the button for a big bet. JJ is not a great hand to take flops at OOP, but with that particular chip stack I think it plays very easily.

[daneblazer]

folding is a joke if you have plenty of money to gamble with but I don't and am looking for better spots to get my stack in than this

the player who raised is the kind of guy who is gonna call and play because that is his style,150 means nothing to him

So we don't want to get it in against a player whose range we crush? Do you think he calls a raise with something like AT, A9, or 88 there? The only time I could advocate folding is if the button is a better player than me and I don't want to play a bloated pot against him oop or if he's one of those nitty 1% pre-flop raise guys and I know he's only raising with premiums. We shouldn't use lack of bankroll or fear of losing as a reason to not get it in good. That really hinders our play. If that's the case we probably shouldn't be playing in this game until we can build our bankroll up. Plus if we fold JJ there we might as well only play AA from the blinds...and if we do that be prepared to be pounded by steal attempts every time we are in the blinds.

[gwiz]

thanks for the thoughts Dane and Kala

somehow I know what your saying even when I am looking at my hand but talk myself out of playing that way.

I think maybe I look for the easiest move too often because making tough plays is stressful

[gwiz]

in this hand the raiser did get called by both limper's and the flop came down Q 9 Q

the second limper ended betting his A9 and got called on the flop and turn by the raiser,they checked the river after the turn and river put up a 10 and 8 making a one card straight possible

any thoughts on how you would theoretically proceed with my hand after the flop?

[boscokid]

While I know most people have disagreed with an option of folding but I really think it is an option if you do not want to get involved in a hand out of position and/or pot commit yourself with the raise. Folding it is certainly tight but with a loose game and with two limpers still to act, it might be a reasonable option to pick a better spot with only $1 invested. 3-betting just commits you. If an Ace or King flops, do you check-fold? If you just call, you can still open shove on a non-A/K flop.

you are never "oop" when you are all in.

[BeerDog99]

you are never "oop" when you are all in.

LOL, yes.

[gwiz]

truthfully I have been beat so many times with big pairs including AA and KK that I tend think of these hands as one pair and I just don't think one pair is a strong poker hand.

If you know what I mean

[BeerDog99]

Well JJ is only one pair, I look at it similarly. therefore (as a lot of people have noted), folding is extra tight but you can find better spots with more information before committing your stack.

Cheers.