Poker Question on SBR

[pitufo76]

IF you are in late position on the final table with 7 players left and you hold Pocket jacks and 2 players go all in before the flop what do you do ??

[zam77]

what are chip counts of you and 2 players?

[pinchylarue]

you should push no matter what, most likely they are holding eachothers cards if they are on a draw

[LLXC]

3 cash or 5?

[Blax0r]

We need to know the payout structure and the chip counts. There are situations where you should fold even AA pre-flop.

[jnickell100]

We need to know the payout structure and the chip counts. There are situations where you should fold even AA pre-flop.

What?? Why would you EVER fold AA pre flop all in? Thats just dumb

[Blax0r]

What?? Why would you EVER fold AA pre flop all in? Thats just dumb

Yea, that's exactly what I thought too when I first heard that from my buddy; I was seriously questioning his intelligence at the time.

The explanation is that you want to always maximize your expected value in terms of cash, not chips. In a tourney, the chips you own is not exactly correlated to how much money you earn; it's your finish placement.

short version:
look up independent chip model

long verion:
So let's say you have AA, your opponent goes all-in before you pre-flop. Let's make it easy, and say that he has something like 88, which gives you an 80% chance to win. In terms of chips, this is a no-brainer call, but what if the payout is something like #1 gets 90% of cash, and #2 gets 10% (not too different from satelite...)? Then, we should calculate EV this way:

.8*p(win | 2x current chipstack)*(.9 of cash) + .2*(.1 of cash)

and compare that value with simply

p(win | current chipstack)*(.9 of cash) + p(lose | current chipstack) * (.1 of cash) - ie, you fold

If your opponent has you covered many times over, your EV from folding may be higher than calling. It's definitely weird, but it makes sense (this is for tourneys only of course).

[wtt0315]

in live poker i would be around 80 20 fold on sbr poker you instant call because one probably has a 106 and the other probably has a 8-5. but of course its going come 885

[daneblazer]

long verion:
So let's say you have AA, your opponent goes all-in before you pre-flop. Let's make it easy, and say that he has something like 88, which gives you an 80% chance to win. In terms of chips, this is a no-brainer call, but what if the payout is something like #1 gets 90% of cash, and #2 gets 10% (not too different from satelite...)? Then, we should calculate EV this way:

.8*p(win | 2x current chipstack)*(.9 of cash) + .2*(.1 of cash)

and compare that value with simply

p(win | current chipstack)*(.9 of cash) + p(lose | current chipstack) * (.1 of cash) - ie, you fold

If your opponent has you covered many times over, your EV from folding may be higher than calling. It's definitely weird, but it makes sense (this is for tourneys only of course).

To put that into words anyone can understand, if the payout structure has a large difference between places or if it's a situation where say the top 5 make the same prize and 6 players are left, consider folding Aces if someone is going to be knocked out at the end of the hand.

Not the greatest example, but say there's 5 people left in a tournament.

The prize structure is
1. $10,000
2. $7500
3. $5000
4. $2500
5. $1000

You have the least amount of chips on the table and wake up with AA in the blinds. One guy in EP shoves, the next shoves over him with slightly more chips, then the chip leader calls on the button. You can consider folding your aces here because you will automatically increase your winnings because at least one of the first two players will be knocked out, possibly two. So you go from expecting to win $1000 to $2500 or $5000 by folding and risking nothing. So it's rare, but you can definitely justify folding them preflop. I think I've only done it 2 or 3 times my entire career.

[Blax0r]

To put that into words anyone can understand, if the payout structure has a large difference between places or if it's a situation where say the top 5 make the same prize and 6 players are left, consider folding Aces if someone is going to be knocked out at the end of the hand.

Not the greatest example, but say there's 5 people left in a tournament.

The prize structure is
1. $10,000
2. $7500
3. $5000
4. $2500
5. $1000

You have the least amount of chips on the table and wake up with AA in the blinds. One guy in EP shoves, the next shoves over him with slightly more chips, then the chip leader calls on the button. You can consider folding your aces here because you will automatically increase your winnings because at least one of the first two players will be knocked out, possibly two. So you go from expecting to win $1000 to $2500 or $5000 by folding and risking nothing. So it's rare, but you can definitely justify folding them preflop. I think I've only done it 2 or 3 times my entire career.

It's readable for think tank or 2p2 guys I suppose; nice translation for normal folks.

[BernardMadoff]

you should push no matter what, most likely they are holding eachothers cards if they are on a draw

Ahh no you shouldnt, depends on chips but they could very well have AA, KK, or QQ, one would feel safer moving in first with JJ instead of last. Also depends on the tendencies of the players youre playing against.

[BernardMadoff]

What?? Why would you EVER fold AA pre flop all in? Thats just dumb

Its not dumb, its the right move, Ive done it before more than once, its the right call if you have say 4 or 5 people before you going all in. 99% of people wouldnt fold in this situation and those people will lose alot more than they win. Its easy to see why one should fold.

[pinchylarue]

Ahh no you shouldnt, depends on chips but they could very well have AA, KK, or QQ, one would feel safer moving in first with JJ instead of last. Also depends on the tendencies of the players youre playing against.

it's sbr not a live game vs phil helmuth.
hand percentage is : AA, KK, QQ, JJ preflop = 1.8% or 1 in 56

so folding JJ would mean you think that they had AA,KK,QQ which would in turn reduce percentage significantly to 0.6 % or 1 in 112 ?
JJ all in is a no brainer end of discussion

[BernardMadoff]

it's sbr not a live game vs phil helmuth.
hand percentage is : AA, KK, QQ, JJ preflop = 1.8% or 1 in 56

so folding JJ would mean you think that they had AA,KK,QQ which would in turn reduce percentage significantly to 0.6 % or 1 in 112 ?
JJ all in is a no brainer end of discussion

No brainer really? With at least 2 having already moved in before you? Yea ok, well I just lost with my KK to AA less than 30 minutes ago. Would love to sit with you at a table. You forget the many other multiple hands, like AK KQ, would you really want to risk everything you have after having made the final table on JJ with two callers ahead of you? I wouldnt.

[BernardMadoff]

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kP9CBtSW0kA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[jnickell100]

Its not dumb, its the right move, Ive done it before more than once, its the right call if you have say 4 or 5 people before you going all in. 99% of people wouldnt fold in this situation and those people will lose alot more than they win. Its easy to see why one should fold.

You want to put your money in with the best hand, no matter what the situation is. If there are 3/4 people going all in, then you still have about an 80% chance of tripling up. Still there is not one reason as to why you should ever fold AA PRE FLOP. You have the best hand no matter what and put your money with the best hand, no matter what anyone else has

[pinchylarue]

No brainer really? With at least 2 having already moved in before you? Yea ok, well I just lost with my KK to AA less than 30 minutes ago. Would love to sit with you at a table. You forget the many other multiple hands, like AK KQ, would you really want to risk everything you have after having made the final table on JJ with two callers ahead of you? I wouldnt.

dude im just saying... no need to be hostile.
if you sat down at the poker table with me, you wouldn't win . thats all im saying

[BernardMadoff]

You want to put your money in with the best hand, no matter what the situation is. If there are 3/4 people going all in, then you still have about an 80% chance of tripling up. Still there is not one reason as to why you should ever fold AA PRE FLOP. You have the best hand no matter what and put your money with the best hand, no matter what anyone else has

Thats a noob style of thinking, if youve played poker for a while you would learn better. AA is only a pair, you go in with 5 others, you more than likely will have players holding cards that are suited and connectors, not to mention them hitting two pair. I figured this out years ago and hearing it from professional poker players only reiterated what I already knew. People get caught up in AA and are quick to call rigged, suckout, and lots of other words when their hand doesnt win, but again its only a pair.

[BernardMadoff]

dude im just saying... no need to be hostile.
if you sat down at the poker table with me, you wouldn't win . thats all im saying

Bro Im not hostile at all, just adding to the discussion in this thread.

[pinchylarue]

Bro Im not hostile at all, just adding to the discussion in this thread.

alright cool,
all I was trying to say was that if getting high pockets is 1.2%, then we can most likely assume that the others are on a draw thus holding eachothers cards. that would also substantially decrease their odds of hitting a higher pair also

[jnickell100]

Thats a noob style of thinking, if youve played poker for a while you would learn better. AA is only a pair, you go in with 5 others, you more than likely will have players holding cards that are suited and connectors, not to mention them hitting two pair. I figured this out years ago and hearing it from professional poker players only reiterated what I already knew. People get caught up in AA and are quick to call rigged, suckout, and lots of other words when their hand doesnt win, but again its only a pair.

Its not noob thinking at all Madoff. Why would you ever throw away a hand where you know for a FACT that you are putting your chips in with the best hand? It just doesn't make sense. You are telling me that other might have suited connectors and yes that's true, but they HAVE TO suckout on you and hit cards. You are banking on someone sucking out on you to beat you, when you have AA you have to be beat.

We can argue about this for days but for me, i am going all in with AA anytime. You can call me a noob or whatever you want but when you put your chips in the pot with the best hand thats all you can ask for.

[pitufo76]

ok let me rephrase the question.

7 players left on the final table and i am on the button. 2 players push all in in front of me. i have about 13,000 in chips. 1st player that pushed all in has about 9000 and the 2nd player covers the hold table about 15,000.

Payout structure

1st place $500
2nd Place $300
3rd Place $200

i have pocket Jacks in the hole and i proceeded to lay the hand down. was that the correct play ?

[pinchylarue]

yes good fold

[BernardMadoff]

Its not noob thinking at all Madoff. Why would you ever throw away a hand where you know for a FACT that you are putting your chips in with the best hand? It just doesn't make sense. You are telling me that other might have suited connectors and yes that's true, but they HAVE TO suckout on you and hit cards. You are banking on someone sucking out on you to beat you, when you have AA you have to be beat.

We can argue about this for days but for me, i am going all in with AA anytime. You can call me a noob or whatever you want but when you put your chips in the pot with the best hand thats all you can ask for.

Again its just a pair. How many times do you think one pair will hold up with 4 or 5 people pushed into a pot. Let me know what time you usually play the tourneys so I can join ya.

[Wulfman14]

madoff and nickel niether of you is right or wrong. it is based on your style of play. some are aggressive , some are conservative. if there were 5 people left in the tourney and 3 people before me go ALL IN then i would def. consider folding AA . it is very difficult to do and basically it comes down to a decision that you have to make . that AA could also propel you to chip leader if you play it and win. i think it is more of a type A versus type B personality thing.

[nomeansno]

You should only fold AA in a multiple all in situation if you are in a satellite tourney, with only a few people left, and the payout is the same for everyone who finishes ITM. The reason is that while in regular tourneys you always play to win it (so you should definitely call a 3-4 way all-in with AA because your equity will be much higher than of the other players in the pot), and not to get in the money, but in satellites it usually doesn't matter who wins, the first few players get the same prize.

[jnickell100]

Again its just a pair. How many times do you think one pair will hold up with 4 or 5 people pushed into a pot. Let me know what time you usually play the tourneys so I can join ya.

I know its only a pair, but guess what? When you are playing suited connectors you dont have shit. Im not sure why you think youre so much better than i am because i want to put my money in guaranteed with the best odds. But i played in the tourney yesterday and won.

[jnickell100]

ok let me rephrase the question. 7 players left on the final table and i am on the button. 2 players push all in in front of me. i have about 13,000 in chips. 1st player that pushed all in has about 9000 and the 2nd player covers the hold table about 15,000. Payout structure 1st place $500 2nd Place $300 3rd Place $200 i have pocket Jacks in the hole and i proceeded to lay the hand down. was that the correct play ?

Yes that is the correct play.

[BernardMadoff]

I know its only a pair, but guess what? When you are playing suited connectors you dont have shit. Im not sure why you think youre so much better than i am because i want to put my money in guaranteed with the best odds. But i played in the tourney yesterday and won.

Because it takes 5 cards to make a hand and not 2. Never said I was better than anyone.

[kidk]

it depends but i would

[SpeedPro]

There are no guarantees in Poker unfortunately.

[pako74]

ok let me rephrase the question.

7 players left on the final table and i am on the button. 2 players push all in in front of me. i have about 13,000 in chips. 1st player that pushed all in has about 9000 and the 2nd player covers the hold table about 15,000.

Payout structure

1st place $500
2nd Place $300
3rd Place $200

i have pocket Jacks in the hole and i proceeded to lay the hand down. was that the correct play ?

i would have laid down the jacks also. With jacks, I would rather be the raiser and not the caller.

[pitufo76]

Bernard that vidoe is too funny !!! lol