1. #1
    dlowilly
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    Assess this live PLO hand

    1/2 PLO, I have about $530 in my stack

    I have Kd8d8c3d in cutoff, pretty loose table pre flop and some loose players post flop

    first position straddle to 4, three callers to me and I call 4, loose guy in small blind makes it 15 and Everyone calls so 6 players, 90 in the pot.

    Flop is Js 8s 5h and I hit middle set

    Check to one of the guys in early pos who bets the pot for $90. One caller before me and I call in position.

    Turn is 4c

    1st player checks, 2nd player checks, I check.

    River is the 5s so the flush gets there but I hit 8s full of 5s

    Checked around to me, I bet $125

    First guy folds, next guy check raises me all in for about $300 more

    I Call and he turns over quad 5s

    I go play some electronic craps

    Just not sure I could get away from it but maybe I could have IDK
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  2. #2
    Enkhbat
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    I am not a PLO expert, but this hand looks like a cooler.

  3. #3
    Ian
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    Preflop: IMO this is very borderline. In a loose PLO ring game you want hands that can make the nuts. You can fudge a little if you're last to act, so I'd probably jump in with your hand if I had a read that the button was folding, but without that read I'm folding K883 suited. After the raise, I'd call.

    Flop: As played, I'd call.

    Turn: I'd bet. If someone made the straight they probably would have bet. If there's a chance the flop bettor would limp in with KKxx, I'd bet about the same amount as was bet on the flop. If the flop bettor raises his big pairs, I'd bet more.

    River: As played, the bet is good. After the raise I'd call. Given the way the 1st 2 streets were played it's unlikely the raiser has KKxx. You're basically left with fives full, quads, an overaggressive flush, or a bluff. I'd fold against a rock, but it doesn't seem like that's the case here.

    Post hand: "I go play some electronic craps" This is a clear mistake

    Also, if you're uncomfortable playing middle set, play tighter preflop.

    Just my opinion...
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  4. #4
    stevenash
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    I play a lot of PLO and O8

    I have a simple saying.
    Sevens, eights, and nines are usually death.

    But yeah, like Ian said. play tighter preflop. I'm never comfortable with a set of sevens or eights.

  5. #5
    dlowilly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Preflop: IMO this is very borderline. In a loose PLO ring game you want hands that can make the nuts. You can fudge a little if you're last to act, so I'd probably jump in with your hand if I had a read that the button was folding, but without that read I'm folding K883 suited. After the raise, I'd call.

    Flop: As played, I'd call.

    Turn: I'd bet. If someone made the straight they probably would have bet. If there's a chance the flop bettor would limp in with KKxx, I'd bet about the same amount as was bet on the flop. If the flop bettor raises his big pairs, I'd bet more.

    River: As played, the bet is good. After the raise I'd call. Given the way the 1st 2 streets were played it's unlikely the raiser has KKxx. You're basically left with fives full, quads, an overaggressive flush, or a bluff. I'd fold against a rock, but it doesn't seem like that's the case here.

    Post hand: "I go play some electronic craps" This is a clear mistake

    Also, if you're uncomfortable playing middle set, play tighter preflop.

    Just my opinion...
    Quote Originally Posted by stevenash View Post
    I play a lot of PLO and O8

    I have a simple saying.
    Sevens, eights, and nines are usually death.

    But yeah, like Ian said. play tighter preflop. I'm never comfortable with a set of sevens or eights.
    Absolutely guys, that was a questionable starting hand that I did not feel great about but position and all the callers was a deciding factor to play it.

    The issue I was wondering about was the river action though. Starting hand quality was irrelevant in this situation especially since I was beat by a one outer on the river, not a higher set.
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  6. #6
    blankoblanco
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlowilly View Post
    Absolutely guys, that was a questionable starting hand that I did not feel great about but position and all the callers was a deciding factor to play it.

    The issue I was wondering about was the river action though. Starting hand quality was irrelevant in this situation especially since I was beat by a one outer on the river, not a higher set.
    My take: PF is slightly questionable with this hand, but I get how it goes in loose live games. When you know you're a better player than the field, seeing flop is probably okay

    Whether you can ever fold river is just so read dependent. I doubt you had a strong enough read to do it in this case? But would need more info

    Most live PLO players are fairly clueless. If I knew he was actually a very solid PLO player 88 does shrink up a lot here. Once the board pairs, a good player knows the nut flush is not worth check-raising (unless he thinks you're a huge fish). They might not even do it with 4s full, and that would be a less likely holding since it would have to be a 44xx hand that can also play the flop. You do beat a J5 hand though, which he sure could think is worth check/raising

    A very good/solid/tight PLO player is probably pretty weighted towards JJ and 55 here, I just think you'd need a strong read in that direction. You still beat J5 which is realistic. Against a random live player, I definitely go broke here
    Last edited by blankoblanco; 08-23-22 at 07:29 PM.

  7. #7
    stevenash
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    I was rereading this tread, with all due respect to the OP, I'm mucking that hand pre.
    That three is what I call a dangler, it's dead wood.
    You're pretty much hoping for 8's full or K high flush.

  8. #8
    dlowilly
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    Quote Originally Posted by blankoblanco View Post
    My take: PF is slightly questionable with this hand, but I get how it goes in loose live games. When you know you're a better player than the field, seeing flop is probably okay

    Whether you can ever fold river is just so read dependent. I doubt you had a strong enough read to do it in this case? But would need more info

    Most live PLO players are fairly clueless. If I knew he was actually a very solid PLO player 88 does shrink up a lot here. Once the board pairs, a good player knows the nut flush is not worth check-raising (unless he thinks you're a huge fish). They might not even do it with 4s full, and that would be a less likely holding since it would have to be a 44xx hand that can also play the flop. You do beat a J5 hand though, which he sure could think is worth check/raising

    A very good/solid/tight PLO player is probably pretty weighted towards JJ and 55 here, I just think you'd need a strong read in that direction. You still beat J5 which is realistic. Against a random live player, I definitely go broke here
    He wasn't clueless but he was in some big wild pots. Couple of things that made me call is I pretty much represented a flush the whole hand including the smallish riverbet with a paired board checked to me, so normally you would just be like, "how can he do that with anything other than Js over or quads?", but it had to look like I could very likely have a flush and he could think his lower boat was really good or even the less likely nut flush beats my flush.

    The other thing of course was the pot odds. I was getting around 3 to 1 and although I sensed I was beat there I felt he might turn over a smaller boat or even the nut flush maybe 30-40% of the time.

    One crucial thing I think I missed though: I don't remember him asking how much I had or looking to see how much I had before he check raised me all in. If I would have noticed that and processed it I would have to ask, "What hands could someone check raise all in there and not worry about their opponents stack size?" and I probably could have folded.
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  9. #9
    boscokid
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenash View Post
    I was rereading this tread, with all due respect to the OP, I'm mucking that hand pre.
    That three is what I call a dangler, it's dead wood.
    You're pretty much hoping for 8's full or K high flush.
    Agree with this; even considering position and a loose table this hand likely loses more than it makes.

    As played I probably fold to the check raise. But who am I kidding? I probably pot the flop

  10. #10
    dlowilly
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenash View Post
    I was rereading this tread, with all due respect to the OP, I'm mucking that hand pre.
    That three is what I call a dangler, it's dead wood.
    You're pretty much hoping for 8's full or K high flush.
    Quote Originally Posted by boscokid View Post

    Agree with this; even considering position and a loose table this hand likely loses more than it makes.

    As played I probably fold to the check raise. But who am I kidding? I probably pot the flop
    Come on guys, are you just trolling now?

    Admittedly it is not a great hand to play pre flop but like I said, folding or not folding preflop is irrelevant. I had him drawing to a one outer on the river and you two are talking about it should have been folded preflop. No one folds preflop to strategically avoid getting one outed on the river.
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  11. #11
    dlowilly
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    Quote Originally Posted by blankoblanco View Post
    A very good/solid/tight PLO player is probably pretty weighted towards JJ and 55 here, I just think you'd need a strong read in that direction. You still beat J5 which is realistic. Against a random live player, I definitely go broke here
    He could also have 8 5 or a hand like 4 5 6 9, 4 5 7 9, or 4 5 9 10 with possible straight flush draws in there.
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  12. #12
    semibluff
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    I used to be something of a PLO specialist but I quit playing about 7 years ago. Kd8d8c3d isn't a hand I would want to play without a strong read on everyone else. With a strong read I probably still wouldn't play it.

  13. #13
    dlowilly
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    Quote Originally Posted by semibluff View Post
    I used to be something of a PLO specialist but I quit playing about 7 years ago. Kd8d8c3d isn't a hand I would want to play without a strong read on everyone else. With a strong read I probably still wouldn't play it.
    Cheese and rice! Lol unreal
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  14. #14
    dlowilly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Preflop: IMO this is very borderline. In a loose PLO ring game you want hands that can make the nuts. You can fudge a little if you're last to act, so I'd probably jump in with your hand if I had a read that the button was folding, but without that read I'm folding K883 suited. After the raise, I'd call.

    Flop: As played, I'd call.

    Turn: I'd bet. If someone made the straight they probably would have bet. If there's a chance the flop bettor would limp in with KKxx, I'd bet about the same amount as was bet on the flop. If the flop bettor raises his big pairs, I'd bet more.

    River: As played, the bet is good. After the raise I'd call. Given the way the 1st 2 streets were played it's unlikely the raiser has KKxx. You're basically left with fives full, quads, an overaggressive flush, or a bluff. I'd fold against a rock, but it doesn't seem like that's the case here.

    Post hand: "I go play some electronic craps" This is a clear mistake

    Also, if you're uncomfortable playing middle set, play tighter preflop.

    Just my opinion...
    Thanks Ian, some good stuff in there.

    Yeah the turn check was iffy. It was a combo of a little bit wary of a straight getting there and waiting to check raise, me wanting to represent a flush draw, and controlling the pot size.
    Last edited by dlowilly; 08-23-22 at 11:23 PM.
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  15. #15
    stevenash
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlowilly View Post
    Come on guys, are you just trolling now?

    Admittedly it is not a great hand to play pre flop but like I said, folding or not folding preflop is irrelevant. I had him drawing to a one outer on the river and you two are talking about it should have been folded preflop. No one folds preflop to strategically avoid getting one outed on the river.
    No, not trolling at all, respect you.

    My Omaha philosophy has always been for me to go splashing around in a pot all four cards need to make sense.
    Three cards in the example hand makes sense, the 3d has no value to you, unless the flop comes 3-3-3
    the diamonds are already covered with the K and the 8. It's just me, and no knock on you, if I'm paying for a flop I want all four of my cards to make sense, I don't like to enter a pot with a dangler is all I am saying,

    Only time mid pairs get my attention is like 77-88 something like that, or if one of my sevens or eights is double suited with an ace.
    Pairs don't get my attention preflop unless it's 10-10 or higher, hopefully double suited with a Broadway hole card.

    Top 25 starting hands are much more common in Omaha then NLHE, I can wait, but then again I'm your prototypical TAG player, once I'm 'made', then I loosen up.
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  16. #16
    boscokid
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    Yes I realize you were not asking about preflop action but......

    What was your plan if you hit a K high flush? Go broke? Lay it down at the first sign of trouble?

    Omaha gives every player 6 starting hands but you decided to go to war with just K8s and 88 - do those looks like hands you would want to play in deep stack Omaha? Hopefully not

    Pot is 785 and you need to call 300? I realize its an all in but it just begs for a call (ie its not large enough to run you off if you have full house) so what is he betting with? You think he is check raising with a flush on a paired board? If this was just a naked bluff where some maniac just wants to push our DLO off his hand then I would expect him to bet out and not check. This action doesn't seem like a river check raise bluff that you called hoping to catch.

    Does it suck hitting the 3rd nuts and losing? Yes it does

  17. #17
    blankoblanco
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlowilly View Post
    He could also have 8 5 or a hand like 4 5 6 9, 4 5 7 9, or 4 5 9 10 with possible straight flush draws in there.
    Again though, if he's actually a very solid player and sees you as one as well, he arguably shouldn't be check-raising all-in with really weak boats. In PLO the nut flush does not look good vs. a check-raise all-in on a paired board, right? So then, if he has 44 or 45, what is he expecting to get called by that he beats?

    That's just a big "if" in most live low stakes games. Plenty of clowns who are coming from Hold 'em and can't evaluate hand strength in PLO to save their lives. But something to consider

  18. #18
    dlowilly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post


    Post hand: "I go play some electronic craps" This is a clear mistake


    Meant to address this earlier

    The electronic craps was actually great. I've played a lot of live craps and this version was better in a lot of ways IMO. It was a full size craps table with a dealer, stick, and dice. You actually throw the dice on the layout. The difference is there are no chips, it's all on your personal screen at your seat. You put your money in and get the credits and place whatever bets you want in the betting time period.

    So you get the real gambling feel of actual dice but skip the slow dealers, dice hitting chips, prop bettors slowing down the game, etc.

    Edit: I looked it up and this is called "Hybrid Craps"
    Last edited by dlowilly; 08-24-22 at 08:32 PM.
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  19. #19
    dlowilly
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    Quote Originally Posted by boscokid View Post
    Yes I realize you were not asking about preflop action but......

    What was your plan if you hit a K high flush? Go broke? Lay it down at the first sign of trouble?

    Assess the action in front of me since I am in position. I was on the fence playing the hand FWIW

    Omaha gives every player 6 starting hands but you decided to go to war with just K8s and 88 - do those looks like hands you would want to play in deep stack Omaha? Hopefully not .

    No not ideally. It was a very loose preflop table though. My hand was a better than average starting hand for that table and I was in position.

    Pot is 785 and you need to call 300? I realize its an all in but it just begs for a call (ie its not large enough to run you off if you have full house) so what is he betting with? You think he is check raising with a flush on a paired board? If this was just a naked bluff where some maniac just wants to push our DLO off his hand then I would expect him to bet out and not check. This action doesn't seem like a river check raise bluff that you called hoping to catch.

    No, the pot was 910 after I was check raised. SO a little over 3 to 1. The questions you ask I asked myself too, and I thought the most likely hand was quad 5s.

    I never realistically put him on a bluff. The hands I thought he could have were quad 5s, Js full, smaller boat, or a slight chance of Ace high flush. I thought I was probably beat but I was also getting 3 to 1. I wasn't playing or reading my best either, it was a wild 8 handed table with most players in preflop for straddles and sometimes (like this hand) preflop pot raises. Most players at the table just seemed like action players, I didn't really see anyone as extremely skilled or tight, and saw some pretty weak hands taking down some big pots in showdowns.

    Does it suck hitting the 3rd nuts and losing? Yes it does
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  20. #20
    dlowilly
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    Quote Originally Posted by blankoblanco View Post
    Again though, if he's actually a very solid player and sees you as one as well, he arguably shouldn't be check-raising all-in with really weak boats. In PLO the nut flush does not look good vs. a check-raise all-in on a paired board, right? So then, if he has 44 or 45, what is he expecting to get called by that he beats?

    That's just a big "if" in most live low stakes games. Plenty of clowns who are coming from Hold 'em and can't evaluate hand strength in PLO to save their lives. But something to consider
    Yeah, one of the big things that screwed me up is the way I represented my hand. I felt everyone figured I had the flush, which in fact some of the players called me as having before I told them 8s full. So me thinking he probably thought I had a flush made the possibility of him check raising with a smaller boat more likely.

    I didn't do the math right during the hand either, I thought I was getting just under 2.5 to 1 when I was actually getting over 3 to 1.

    After recalculating the pot odds, unless I specifically noticed him not caring what I had left in my stack before his reraise all in I don't think I can lay it down the way it played.
    Last edited by dlowilly; 08-24-22 at 08:34 PM.
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  21. #21
    boscokid
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    Sounds like we are thinking the same but reaching different conclusions, but you were there and we were not.

    What really gives me pause on calling here; what hand is worth smooth calling 90 on the flop and check raising all in on the river? Pretty much JJxx and 55xx and nothing else unless your villain is a complete idiot

  22. #22
    JAKEPEAVY21
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    Agree with what many others have said.

    I probably would fold preflop...

    As played, on river it would be very dependent on the villain but I think more times than not, you are beat in this scenario.
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  23. #23
    Auto Donk
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    Quote Originally Posted by boscokid View Post
    Sounds like we are thinking the same but reaching different conclusions, but you were there and we were not.

    What really gives me pause on calling here; what hand is worth smooth calling 90 on the flop and check raising all in on the river? Pretty much JJxx and 55xx and nothing else unless your villain is a complete idiot
    wow, I have never seen anything at an omaha table give you pause in a hand that you are in.....

  24. #24
    Auto Donk
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    only way you're laying it down was if you could sense strength/that you'd been sandbagged by the guy....

    you fell into his trap as is, and had to hope he'd hit nut flush, but with the paired board, maybe you could have sniffed out that he had top boat or even quads......

  25. #25
    boscokid
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auto Donk View Post
    wow, I have never seen anything at an omaha table give you pause in a hand that you are in.....
    In my defense I already said I would jam the flop, bosco loves to clear out the riff-raff and dreamers
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  26. #26
    Auto Donk
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    Quote Originally Posted by boscokid View Post
    In my defense I already said I would jam the flop, bosco loves to clear out the riff-raff and dreamers
    playing live omaha must be difficult for you, as there are no buttons to push to and then "let sbr do the rest"

  27. #27
    stevenash
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auto Donk View Post
    playing live omaha must be difficult for you, as there are no buttons to push to and then "let sbr do the rest"


    Leave BK alone, he's a good shit
    (I know you're just messing with him)
    BK does love to jam with that A2 preflop in O8 though.

  28. #28
    Str8Mush4Life
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    I know I'm late to this but did we find out what villain was holding? 55xx?

    I don't play PLO, but I ONLY play PLO8 or Big O. If I'm holding 55 (lo suited ace hands with 55 probably) I'm hoping and only hoping for 5s full lower (522, 533, or 544 flops) but even then it's a miracle to scoop.

    I'm just curious to know what your opponent was holding in regular PLO where he not only played preflop (suited Ace with 55 or 5567, etc) but stuck around to the river with bottom set?

    In regular 08 I can't toss bottom set away fast enough, or even a bottom boat. Experienced Omaha players should know this.

  29. #29
    eddycash
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    The looser your preflop play, the higher your overall variance.

  30. #30
    dlowilly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Str8Mush4Life View Post
    I know I'm late to this but did we find out what villain was holding? 55xx?

    I don't play PLO, but I ONLY play PLO8 or Big O. If I'm holding 55 (lo suited ace hands with 55 probably) I'm hoping and only hoping for 5s full lower (522, 533, or 544 flops) but even then it's a miracle to scoop.

    I'm just curious to know what your opponent was holding in regular PLO where he not only played preflop (suited Ace with 55 or 5567, etc) but stuck around to the river with bottom set?

    In regular 08 I can't toss bottom set away fast enough, or even a bottom boat. Experienced Omaha players should know this.
    I don't remember what his other two cards were but he had 55

    In fact I'm not sure I saw them, he did kind of a soft slow roll where he turned over the first 5 and then the 2nd 5 and I pretty much was headed out by then.
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