Are these Hall of Fame numbers?

[stevenash]

1991	22	BAL	AL	4	5	.444	2.87	12	12	0	2	0	0	87.2	77	31	28	7	21	0	52	1	1	3	349	139	1.118	7.9	0.7	2.2	5.3	2.48
1992	23	BAL	AL	18	5	.783	2.54	32	32	0	8	4	0	241.0	212	70	68	16	48	2	130	2	0	6	957	157	1.079	7.9	0.6	1.8	4.9	2.71	AS,CYA-4,MVP-21
1993	24	BAL	AL	14	6	.700	4.46	25	25	0	3	2	0	167.2	163	84	83	20	44	2	117	3	0	5	693	100	1.235	8.7	1.1	2.4	6.3	2.66	AS
1994	25	BAL	AL	16	5	.762	3.06	24	24	0	3	0	0	176.1	163	63	60	19	42	1	99	1	0	0	712	164	1.163	8.3	1.0	2.1	5.1	2.36	AS,CYA-4,MVP-20
1995	26	BAL	AL	19	9	.679	3.29	32	32	0	7	4	0	221.2	187	86	81	24	50	4	158	1	0	2	882	145	1.069	7.6	1.0	2.0	6.4	3.16	CYA-5
1996	27	BAL	AL	19	11	.633	4.81	36	36	0	4	1	0	243.1	264	137	130	31	69	0	204	3	0	3	1039	103	1.368	9.8	1.1	2.6	7.5	2.96	CYA-5,GG
1997	28	BAL	AL	15	8	.652	3.20	33	33	0	4	1	0	224.2	197	87	80	27	54	3	218	3	0	5	905	137	1.117	7.9	1.1	2.2	8.7	4.04	AS,CYA-6,GG
1998	29	BAL	AL	13	10	.565	3.49	29	29	0	4	2	0	206.1	189	85	80	22	41	3	175	4	0	10	835	130	1.115	8.2	1.0	1.8	7.6	4.27	GG
1999	30	BAL	AL	18	7	.720	3.50	31	31	0	4	0	0	203.1	207	88	79	16	52	0	172	1	0	2	842	133	1.274	9.2	0.7	2.3	7.6	3.31	AS,CYA-2,GG
2000	31	BAL	AL	11	15	.423	3.79	34	34	0	6	1	0	237.2	236	105	100	28	46	0	210	3	0	3	987	125	1.187	8.9	1.1	1.7	8.0	4.57	CYA-6
2001	32	NYY	AL	17	11	.607	3.15	34	34	0	4	3	0	228.2	202	87	80	20	42	2	214	4	0	6	909	143	1.067	8.0	0.8	1.7	8.4	5.10	CYA-5,GG
2002	33	NYY	AL	18	10	.643	4.05	33	33	0	2	2	0	215.2	208	103	97	27	48	1	182	5	0	7	886	109	1.187	8.7	1.1	2.0	7.6	3.79
2003	34	NYY	AL	17	8	.680	3.40	31	31	0	2	1	0	214.2	192	86	81	21	40	4	195	3	0	4	855	130	1.081	8.0	0.9	1.7	8.2	4.88	GG
2004	35	NYY	AL	12	9	.571	4.59	27	27	0	1	0	0	164.2	178	91	84	22	40	1	132	2	0	5	697	98	1.324	9.7	1.2	2.2	7.2	3.30
2005	36	NYY	AL	13	8	.619	4.41	30	30	0	2	2	0	179.2	199	93	88	23	47	0	142	7	0	2	766	96	1.369	10.0	1.2	2.4	7.1	3.02
2006	37	NYY	AL	15	7	.682	3.51	32	32	0	1	0	0	197.1	184	88	77	22	35	1	172	5	0	3	804	129	1.110	8.4	1.0	1.6	7.8	4.91
2007	38	NYY	AL	11	10	.524	5.15	28	27	0	0	0	0	152.0	188	90	87	14	35	2	91	4	0	1	656	88	1.467	11.1	0.8	2.1	5.4	2.60
2008	39	NYY	AL	20	9	.690	3.37	34	34	0	0	0	0	200.1	214	85	75	17	31	3	150	8	0	4	819	131	1.223	9.6	0.8	1.4	6.7	4.84	CYA-6,MVP-19,GG
18 Yrs				270	153	.638	3.68	537	536	0	57	23	0	3562.2	3460	1559	1458	376	785	29	2813	60	1	71	14593	123	1.192	8.7	0.9	2.0	7.1	3.58
162 Game Avg.				17	10	.638	3.68	34	34	0	4	1	0	226	219	99	92	24	50	2	178	4	0	4	925	123	1.192	8.7	0.9	2.0	7.1	3.58

[mh217]

let the moose in!

[seaborneq]

Mike Mussina. No. Hall of very good, not hall of fame.

[KingJD31]

His win loss record is flawed he played on stacked teams his whole career, go based on era and he's just another very good pitcher not hof

[stevenash]

Mike Mussina. No. Hall of very good, not hall of fame.

What doesn't make him a Hall of Famer?
The 270 wins?
The 9 times he finished sixth or better in Cy Young?
The unbelievable (when you figured he pitched almost two decades in the AL East) WH/IP of 1.19?
The fact he finished his career 117 games over .500 with a winning pct of .638
The seven gold gloves?
The all star games appearances...............

[stevenash]

His win loss record is flawed he played on stacked teams his whole career, go based on era and he's just another very good pitcher not hof

He pitched 10 seasons with Baltimore, only two years were they really any good.

[PedroG]

Id vote for him , If Bert and Jenkins got in , then Moose should be turned loose ..Moose has better numbers than those two chumps ...

[stevenash]

According to Baseball-Reference, the only three pitchers retired not yet eligible that rate higher are 1)Maddux 2) Randy Johnson 3) Pedro

Quite frankly I'd have Pedro and Maddux 1 and 1A and Randy Johnson 3 in the pecking order, but Moose is rated higher than Glavine and Smoltz.

[ttwarrior1]

i don't do it by the numbers

You can't be comparing era's, its not fair to players of now or the past

Example:
Mike schmidt flied out at the warning track 50 times in 1986, all 50 of those would be a hr in this new phily park

Dale murphy, dave parker and don mattingly belong but alot have better stats. Who gives a **** about stats

[frogsrangers]

If he played for the Pirates and Royals he wouldn't even be mentioned

[ttwarrior1]

jamie moyer belongs in the hall of fame because if he wasn't on the phillies they never would of won the world series, he's pitching in his 50's, played for alot of bad teams and u just don't always base everything on stats alone. Don't care if others have more k's or whatever, doesn't matter

[stevenash]

i don't do it by the numbers

You can't be comparing era's, its not fair to players of now or the past

Example:
Mike schmidt flied out at the warning track 50 times in 1986, all 50 of those would be a hr in this new phily park

Dale murphy, dave parker and don mattingly belong but alot have better stats. Who gives a **** about stats

It's criminal that Dale Murphy doesn't belong. I guess the voters don't like the .265 lifetime average.
Dewey Evans should have gotten more consideration too.

[BuddyBear]

It could either way I think. In some ways, he's like Andy Pettite and Jack Morris. Very good W/L record, but the ERA is a bit high. He benefited from playing on very good teams who scored a lot of runs which inflated his W/L record. He was still very good. I could see him getting in but never Andy Pettite and Jack Morris will get in but it would be terrible if he did.

[KingJD31]

He pitched 10 seasons with Baltimore, only two years were they really any good.

About 4-5 years they were good

[MC PICKS]

270 wins and an ERA under 4 all in the american league during the entire steroid era, yeah i say he should be in easily. 270 wins, all in the 5 man rotation era is very impressive. Would have easily been a 300 game winner if he pitched in the 4 man era.

[PedroG]

Id vote for CONE too for the record.

[Chi_archie]

i don't do it by the numbers

You can't be comparing era's, its not fair to players of now or the past

Example:
Mike schmidt flied out at the warning track 50 times in 1986, all 50 of those would be a hr in this new phily park

Dale murphy, dave parker and don mattingly belong but alot have better stats

. Mussina should be in! What the hell is TT talking about with the Philly ballpark dimensions?

[ttwarrior1]

i need to go look at evans stats

[mathdotcom]

Why would anyone look at W-L?

ERA ERA ERA, and it's nothing special

[stevenash]

ERA ERA ERA, and it's nothing special

Are you kidding me?
His lifetime ERA+ was 123.

Who's #25 on this list?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi

[mathdotcom]

Are you kidding me?
His lifetime ERA+ was 123.

Who's #25 on this list?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi

Their rating system is a joke, it's based on W-L which is irrelevant

[mathdotcom]

Lifetime 3.68 ERA

lol

[mathdotcom]

Why isn't Luis Tiant in the HoF?

[stevenash]

Lifetime 3.68 ERA

lol

ERA+ 123 = HoF

[stevenash]

Why isn't Luis Tiant in the HoF?

Because his ERA was league average, Mussina's ERA was a run + lower than league average.

[mathdotcom]

Huh?
Tiant's ERA+ was 114

[stevenash]

Mussina pitched from 1991-2008 the AL league average in that 18 year span was 4.76
Mussina's ERA for those 18 years was 3.68

Tiant pitched from 1964 to 1982, the AL league average in that 18 year span was 3.54
Tiant's ERA for those 18 years was 3.30

[stevenash]

Their rating system is a joke, it's based on W-L which is irrelevant

It's not based on W-L, it's based on win probability.
Do you even know who Arpad Elo is?

[mathdotcom]

Lol, I have a better understanding of ELO than you do

Please enlighten me on how they determine a pitcher's win probability. The 'details' section does not actually tell you.

[str]

Yes

[stevenash]

Lol, I have a better understanding of ELO than you do

Please enlighten me on how they determine a pitcher's win probability. The 'details' section does not actually tell you.

I don't think you do, I play backgammon and chess.

Would you like me to explain to you how to calculate the league average ERA's for each of those 18 year periods?

[mathdotcom]

I don't think you do, I play backgammon and chess.

Would you like me to explain to you how to calculate the league average ERA's for each of those 18 year periods?

And do you have a 2250 chess rating? Yeah you're the only chess player in the world.

Where does it say they calculate win probability as being based on ratio of ERA to league ERA?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/elo.html

On this page the entire simulation is based on what the author calls "RA" and "RB" the 'ratings' of players A and B. The simulation of heads up match-ups that follows just gets the ELO rating but that rating is going to determine everything. If that initial 'rating' is based on ratio of ERA to league ERA during their eras then I approve. I suspect W-L is a component though as this ridiculous statistic seems pervasive.

[stevenash]

No, my chess rating is not that high, it's 1984 (Harkness) I'm OK, not great, my backgammon rating is 2015.

Now I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you, because I am sure you have credentials, but I'm an IT operations analyst for a life insurance company here in Ct., even though my degree is in computer science, I have many study hours in acturial science.

[PedroG]

270 should get you in , in the modern era no less. Moose was always the ace of the staff wherever he went.

[NYSportsGuy210]

Mike Mussina's numbers are comparable to life long Orioles great Jim Palmer. Palmer is in the HOF...why shouldn't Mussina be?

He was always considered a 1B starter but a great 1B. 270 wins and all those durable innings pitched is very impressive especially considering what he did in the steroid era.

Also the only other pitchers to match Mussina's 17 seasons of ten or more victories are Greg Maddux, Warren Spahn, Cy Young, Don Sutton, and Steve Carlton. May take him a few years after eligibiltiy but definitely a "yes" for the Moose.


I am interested to hear your take on Andy Pettitte and if he is a HOF candidate?