Sportsbook of the Day - VIP

[freebie]

vip is not all that bad. I personally do not think they should be rated A+ like everyone said here.

they do pay, but very late like 7PM EST.

[Lucas]

pags,
sorry for bad understanding
:clubbed:
I do not think it is possible to compare recreational and pro bookies. There are simply two categories "P" and "R".
Parallel: Like banks and investment funds (stupid case). Both can be rated by the same scale, but "P" is not "R" (like bank is not IF, although both take money from people and should gave them some interest). So VIP should be compared with Bodog, BetJam and also B365, Betandwin, Sportingbet, BOS..

And for the juice - there is no pure "R" low vig juice book I guess. (Maybe bettrojan, which I do not know.) So this argument by rating "R" company has no value in my opinion.

[stump]

great customer service, quick payouts, secure, not the best lines or options, but a definite shop i use due to the security and speed of payouts.

[scottyy11]

i think it depends , if your a professional vip is not A+ but if you are a recreational player vip has lots of bonuses and rewards and decent CS that recreational type players enjoy so from that point of view it could be a A+ book

[BuddyBear]

Lucas,

I don't think bodog is deserving of an A rating or that VIP is deserving of an A+...that's what I was trying to say in the last post...I'm not understanding how a book like bodog (full juice, very late lines-I mean embarrasing late lines, they shade their lines badly (almost as badly as skybook) is deserving of an A rating...the last two reasons alone are enough to knock them into the A- category...

my personal experience with VIP customer service was less than satisfying...one can't argue about the crappy website layout either...or the late posted lines...possibly we should replace the word "recreational" with "square"...because these two books to me are books that are good, but not in the category of a pinnacle or even a cris or betjamaica...

I know that SBR is still fine-tuning it's rating system, but I scratch my head sometimes when books like matchbook and mansion are still in the B category and we have books like these rated A...all I'm saying is that for SBR to get the real respect it deserves around the net by professional players and cappers, it's got to really look at how it comes up with it's ratings...business relationships it has with certain books should not factor into a books rating...I am a big fan of SBR, a proponent of you guys all over the net, I just get frustrated when I know certain guys know better but ratings don't change...

Terris,

putting up lines faster than bodog isn't a hard thing to do there pal...I may have horrible posts, but you've shown to be a horrible poster in general...I only wish I had time to drink a beer or two, but I've been busting my ass all week running my business...sorry to dissapoint you...

Great post Pags....this is exactly what I have been trying to say. Unfortunately among many on here, there is this impression that "recreational players"--whatever that is suppose to mean--don't enjoy overnight lines, don't enjoy reduced juice, don't enjoy things like live betting, more choices on games, etc...

I mean Pinnacle is listed as a pro book but yet everyone plays with them does that mean they are professionals? it's stupid to dichotomize books in such a way. In fact, Pinnacle is making changes so that they cater to "recreational players" with e-check deposits, with 1 free withdrawal under $500....so if we keep categorizing books as pro vs. rec we are doing a disservice to potential players.

Second...VIP is in no way an A+ plain and simple. By an objective measure VIP has several shortcomings that would prevent them from being an A+ book...see my first post in this thread. John himself has gone on record and said ratings are subjective...basically he is telling us that it his opinion it's an A+ book.....

Similarly, Bodog is not an A book by any stretch of the imagination either but that's a different story.

Anyway....I talked with a very reliable source from a different forum who lives in Costa Rica and I am going to copy and paste what he told me since he is an industry insider and is very well respected in the gaming community:

They do anything for a buck.

What cracks me up is alot of times you'll see books in the same family group with different ratings. It's no coincidence that when John or Bill walk out the door with their envolope that a rating increase will happen when they get back to the office.

Not my words...but his.

[SBR_John]

LOL. Let me guess an "un named source"?

There are a lot of players who write us mad that they joined Pinnacle and they cant find a phone number...which Pinnacle doesn't publish. They don't believe Pinnacle should be an A+.

Thats why we write detailed reviews and players can choose for themself. What is A+ for one player is not for another. That's what makes SBR so useful because a player can find a book that suits his needs.

[BuddyBear]

LOL. Let me guess an "un named source"?

There are a lot of players who write us mad that they joined Pinnacle and they cant find a phone number...which Pinnacle doesn't publish. They don't believe Pinnacle should be an A+.

Thats why we write detailed reviews and players can choose for themself. What is A+ for one player is not for another. That's what makes SBR so useful because a player can find a book that suits his needs.

Let's just say you know who this "unnamed source" is....

Anyway....you guys rate over 400+ books on the net and we are suppose to believe you do it subjectively...don't you think that could be problematic? I mean basically some criteria applies to some books, while other books don't have to be judged by the same criteria. Doesn't make any sense to me...

Why don't you guys just apply the same criteria across the board....too much variance in your grading. Like Pags said, my head scatches at some of these grades..

I mean...on every online gaming forum it would be impossible not to find major criticism of bodog yet somehow it is an A......apparently everyone else's subjective experiences with Bodog differ from those who are grading it. Even Mudcat, has been known to loosen up the coller around his neck and criticize Bodog in public.

[SBR_John]

Why dont you list your top recreational books and we can compare.
My top 5 for smaller players are:
VIP
BoDog
BetJamaica
Bet365
WWTS

My top 5 for expierenced players are:
Pinnacle
CRIS
Olympic
5 Dimes
WSEX

List yours and we shall compare... you can even ask your friend

[BuddyBear]

John you are not making any sense....you need to chill out a bit.

you are mixing terms up badly John....you need to conceptually clarify for me a few things. What do you mean by a "small" player and what do you mean by an "experienced" player....those terms are not mutually exclusive...that means you can be experienced and be a small player. How long does it take to be an experienced player?

As far as I am concerned anyone can play at any book there is no discrimination among players is there?

Please clarify.....

[SBR_John]

No. You need to learn more about the industry. Do you honestly think a $5 player is happier at Pinnacle over VIP? If you can't get a grip on that basic concept I suggest you study up a little on the demographics and prefrences of large and small players and report back when you have a better foundation to speak from.

[tacomax]

Buddybear - Your arse is that thing you crap out of and your elbow is the bend in your arm between the forearm and the upper arm.

It's pretty obvious you're having difficulty in differentiating between the two.

[BuddyBear]

No. You need to learn more about the industry. Do you honestly think a $5 player is happier at Pinnacle over VIP? If you can't get a grip on that basic concept I suggest you study up a little on the demographics and prefrences of large and small players and report back when you have a better foundation to speak from.

You still didn't differentiate between "small" and "experienced" player have you John? You gave me the impression that there is a difference between the two so I would appreciate some clarification...

In short, when does someone become "experienced" and when is someone a "small" player.

it's that simple John....you avoid questions more than anyone I know.

[BuddyBear]

Buddybear - Your arse is that thing you crap out of and your elbow is the bend in your arm between the forearm and the upper arm.

It's pretty obvious you're having difficulty in differentiating between the two.

You are never going to get a mod position Taco....I don't know why you think you are going to get one. Why don't you differentiate for me then Taco

Tell me are "small" players and "experienced" players mutually exclusive or not?

[SBR_John]

Sorry Buddy, I'm not holding Sportsbook class 101. This is not rocket science. If you cant figure out the difference between the preferences of a small player vs a big player then you are wasting my time...and yours.

When you figure it out report back with your list of top 5 recreational books... I look forward to comparing your list with mine.

[BuddyBear]

umm "small player," "big player," and "experienced player" are all conceptually different and they are not mutually exclusive are they John? Just admit you messed up the terms....no shame in saying you did understand the situation.

Here are my top 5 recrational books since I am small to midlevel player and experienced:

Pinnacle
CRIS
SportsInteraction
Olympic
5 Dimes

Anwway John...you yourself have gone on record and said everything is subjective right?

[Mudcat]

Ratings are just a tool for me. If I saw a B rated book that I thought should be F, I might get upset. But if we're arguing about whether a book is outstanding or merely very good, I do not expect CNN to initiate 24 hour coverage of the story.

Personally, I have come to regard ratings mainly (not totally but mainly) as a statement about safety.

I see an "A", I think, 'Okay they're safe,' and then I start looking into the nitty-gritty information about how a book fits in with my specific playing style in regard to many dimensions. I highly recommend that approach.

I know other people look at ratings other ways or want them to be something else. I don't have a solution to please everyone.

My hope is that these Sportsbook of the Day threads are a decent additional tool to the Ratings. I think it's working. There is a lot of information here about what a prospective player can expect from VIP.

[SBR_John]

Yikes thats your recreational list?

Thank goodness you found SBR. VIP has much better bonuses and lower transfer costs than CRIS so give them a try.

Everything subjective? Buddy are you some kind of little argue bee-itch? Some things are subjective but not everything. Buddy no one is forcing you here. If you dont like the product then go somewhere where there is a better rating. Try tow, you would fit in there.

I thought you said you were a real world man or something? You are arguing day in and day out about an industry that you obviously know zero about. No offense, but I've been a trooper but this is getting boring especially the bee=ithch stuff. I think its time you go do something "real world".

[BuddyBear]

I think are argument is more less ontological than anything right now.

I mean seriously....am I wrong for playing with Pinnacle b/c I am not a professional or a big time player? Pinnacle has all kinds of players do they not? By the way, I seem to be doing okay in this industry.

I like the product indeed I do.....I just have some questions and am happy with your responses. You have defended yourself and everyone has had an opportunity to witness this good natured banter between us. I am sorry that it has gotten out of hand and am really shocked by your hostile nature. That's the nature of good debate...it works up a sweat for everyone. My recommendation is for you to take it easy John. You are basically the only one advocating VIP as an A+ but that's besides the point...anyway you have already gone on record saying your decision to rate them an A+ is subjective and it's just your opinion. No problem.....now everyone knows why it's an A+.

Thanks.....good luck the rest of the way!

[BuddyBear]

By the way....


Dear Sir,

We appreciate your interest in learning more about Pinnacle Sports to recommend our site to your friend.

The minimum amount to start your internet account is $50 [recreational] USD or equivalent. The minimum wager on the internet is $1.00 USD. [seems like this would be catering to recreational players would it not?]

Clients receive a 10% cash bonus on their eligible initial deposit of $250 USD or more. The maximum bonus for any initial deposit is $500. Please see the FAQ section of our site for complete details.

There is a variety of methods to fund the account and process withdrawals. Starting 1 April 2006 clients who do not use our free account to account transfer option now receive one free withdrawal per calendar month. There is no minimum amount required for your free withdrawal and you may use any of your authorized withdrawal methods.

Regards,

Customer Service Department
Pinnacle Sports


-----------------------------------------------------

Hi Pinnacle,

I have a quick question. I have a friend who is interested in signing up with you guys. He's more less a small player, that is he only bets $5-10 games. I told him Pinnacle is the best in the business and that he should consider signing up. However, others have told him that Pinnacle is mainly for professional big time players. Do you think it is a good idea he sign up with you guys? Thanks

Buddy M. Powell

[Mudcat]

Yep we did a Sportsbook of the Day thread on Pinnacle and the feedback was mostly positive.

Forum players like Pinnacle

Phone players would, of course, be less enthusiastic (but are also less likely to be on a posting forum).

Lots of good options out there, Pinnacle and VIP among them.

[scottyy11]

Ratings are just a tool for me. If I saw a B rated book that I thought should be F, I might get upset. But if we're arguing about whether a book is outstanding or merely very good, I do not expect CNN to initiate 24 hour coverage of the story.

Personally, I have come to regard ratings mainly (not totally but mainly) as a statement about safety.

I see an "A", I think, 'Okay they're safe,' and then I start looking into the nitty-gritty information about how a book fits in with my specific playing style in regard to many dimensions. I highly recommend that approach.

I know other people look at ratings other ways or want them to be something else. I don't have a solution to please everyone.

My hope is that these Sportsbook of the Day threads are a decent additional tool to the Ratings. I think it's working. There is a lot of information here about what a prospective player can expect from VIP.

yep the main thing i want the A+ rating to represent is safety after that its sort of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

[TLD]

All these sites are corrupt to varying degrees due to the fact that their income comes from the very industry they’re supposed to be reporting on and “watchdogging.” The key word though is “varying.” There’s a huge difference between sites with no scruples that are purely spokespersons for their paymasters (e.g., anything connected with Raiders), sites with minimal scruples that make some slight effort to be fair and objective but always fall into line for their paymasters in a pinch (e.g., Prescription and really most of the sites), and a site like this. I perceive this site as fudging a bit here and there due to financial incentives, but mostly doing a good job.

Would VIP—to take the example in this thread—be rated A+ if the people doing the rating were ideal, rational beings weighing all the pros and cons objectively and having no incentives whatsoever to bias them for or against? Highly unlikely. Probably somewhere between a C and an A- depending on precisely how the various factors were weighted, etc. Let’s say about a B.

So on this site you can nit pick and find a few ‘A’s that probably should be ‘B’s, ‘D’s that probably should be ‘C’s, surely some ‘C-“s that should be ‘D+’s, etc., and on almost all the other sites you’ll find truly poorly run and crooked books with atrocious track records actively promoted for no reason other than their willingness to pay the advertising fees.

That’s not to say this site should never be criticized just because it tends to be less corrupt than the others. I don’t have a problem with, say, Jay making a reasonable case for BetOnSports or some such book having a bit too high a grade here. But it’s good to keep things in perspective and not simply dismiss all the sites as if just because they are all imperfect, it follows that they are all equally imperfect or all worthless.

[SBR_John]

VIP is a great book that just doesnt advertise on the forums. You can count on one hand books that are this safe with this level of customer service. As big as they are you never hear of any heavy handed complaints and rarely ever hear of any complaints. Not a forum legend, they did not buy people off like BetOnSports, but among the safest with great customer service.