I'm looking to be further educated about soccer . . .

[Mudcat]

Did they always have shootouts to decide World Cup games? And if not, what did they do?

It's hard for me to imagine them just continuing to play until a goal was scored. I would think some games could last for days.

As a further discussion point, I know I have heard complaints about the shootouts. If you are anti-shootout, what option would you prefer?

[tacomax]

Did they always have shootouts to decide World Cup games? And if not, what did they do?

If it's a game in the knock-out stage, then the 90 minutes are played. If there is no result after 90 minutes then 30 minutes of extra time is played. If there is no result after that then there is a penatly shootout.

Between about 2000 and 2004, UEFA came up with the Golden Goal and Silver Goal rules which were used in the periods of extra time. Under the Golden Goal rule, the first goal in extra time won the match. Under the Silver Goal rule then if a team was winning after the first 15 minute period of extra time, they would be called the winner. Of course, is there were no goals in extra time under whichever colour rules, there would be a penalty shootout.

Silver/golden goals were scrapped by UEFA in 2004 I think.

It's hard for me to imagine them just continuing to play until a goal was scored. I would think some games could last for days.

I don't think they'd last days. Fatigue would dictate that someone would score at some point in time, much like extra innings in baseball - they've never lasted days.

As a further discussion point, I know I have heard complaints about the shootouts. If you are anti-shootout, what option would you prefer?

It might not be "fair" but you've got little option in a knockout cup competition.

[Willie Bee]

When did they start using the shootout, taco? I've got 1990 on my mind, but that's probably because that was the first time I really paid any attention to the event.

[tacomax]

I'm not sure when the rules were written but the European Championship of 1976 was the first major international tournament which was decided on penalties. There wasn't anything special I can remember in 1990, although the first World Cup decided by penalties was in 1994 when Brazil beat Itlay.

For trivia fans, the first ever penalty shootout anywhere in the world was during the (dearly departed) Whatney Cup in 1970 and the first penalty was scored by George Best.

[Willie Bee]

I thought that England-Germany went to penalty kicks/shootout in the semi's in 1990. I spent a couple of weeks watching that WC with a lot of Brits in Houston at various pubs. My liver is still hurting

[TexAg001]

OK here is a question. How do they do theat added time b.s.? Do they tell the coach and team how much time is going to be added? Is it something to where if a team is breaking down field with possesion of the ball they let it play out until the other team gets the ball back?

[tacomax]

I thought that England-Germany went to penalty kicks/shootout in the semi's in 1990

Yup, everyone in England above a certain age will remember that match.

Quite a few games in the knockout stages go to penalties (I just checked and there were 4 in 1990 out of a total of 16 games) but as I said, 1994 was the first WC where the final was decided on penalties.

[tacomax]

OK here is a question. How do they do theat added time b.s.? Do they tell the coach and team how much time is going to be added? Is it something to where if a team is breaking down field with possesion of the ball they let it play out until the other team gets the ball back?

We discussed this a couple of days ago when Mudcat decided to re-write the rules of football.

http://forum.sbrforum.com/showthread.php?t=11824

[natrass]

In the 1960s and earlier they used to toss a coin. even in world Cups.

In the 1970s replay mania set in. There was a 3rd round tie (Arsenal-Sunderland I think) which had ten replays.

Even today if the group games cause a tie then after goal difference, etc they draw lots (a fancy way of effectively tossing a coin).

[tacomax]

Natrass, do you prefer the concept of seeing 10 men shooting or do prefer an old-fashioned toss?

I suspect the latter.

[Mudcat]

Okay I have to be misunderstanding this.

It looks like you're saying they used to decide World Cup elimination games that were tied after regulation time with a coin toss (or some equivalent random selection method).

Please tell me I am wrong.

[tacomax]

The only instance I can find is in the 1968 European Championship semi-final between Italy and Russia where they resorted to a coin toss after extra time.

I'm guessing that this must have been the first occurance at a major international championship since the penalty shootout seemed to be introduced shortly after that.

[Dark Horse]

This is the one area of the game where FIFA and UEFA have been creative. We've seen coin flips, penalty shootouts, regular shootouts, golden goals, silver goals, replays, and I'm sure we haven't seen the end of it.

Personal preference? Start overtime with ten players, then take off a player every five minutes, until a team scores.

[Ganchrow]

Personal preference? Start overtime with ten players, then take off a player every five minutes, until a team scores.

Agreed. I think that would certainly make for the most exciting results.

[Mudcat]

I'm really having a hard time getting a firm grasp on this for some reason.

I think I'm reading that they didn't use shootouts/replays etc. prior to ~1970 - and the accepted tiebreaking method in an elimination game was a coinflip. But then you're saying you can only find the one instance of the coinflip being used.

So that would mean there was only one elimination game prior to ~1970 that was tied after extra time. Only one tie elimination game in those decades? It just seems to defy the odds.

But is that the case or am I missing something?



(Go Croatia, by the way.)

[tacomax]

I really couldn't tell you for sure. The only instance of a coin-flip deciding a match in a major championship that I could find (that's the important bit) was in 1968.

If it was the first, then it would explain the fact that that the powers that be introduced the penalty shootout shortly afterwards.

[tacomax]

http://football.guardian.co.uk/news/theknowledge/0,9204,770769,00.html

"What is the most prestigious match to have been decided by a toss of a coin?

The most important coin-toss in the history of football came in the semi-finals of the tedious 1968 European Championships, Paul. Having drawn 0-0 with the Soviet Union, Italy (led by Internazionale defensive legend and crowd-pleaser extraordinaire Giacinto Facchetti) progressed to the final after winning a thrilling coin-toss.

Meanwhile Yugoslavia were dispatching England 1-0, thus ensuring they could be robbed in the final by the Italians. Trailing 1-0 with ten minutes left, Angelo Domenghini was allowed to take a free-kick with the Yugoslavs in the process of retreating the full 10 yards. Goal, and a 1-1 draw. Italy won the replay 2-0; not exciting.

The next biggest match decided by the flicking of a coin took place in the 1964-5 European Cup quarter-finals, after Liverpool and Cologne played out two dour 0-0 draws and then a 2-2 after a play-off in Amsterdam. Ron Yeats guessed right in the centre circle, as befitting a man who won more 50-50s than most. You'll Never Walk Cologne? Liverpool were then controversially dispatched 4-3 on aggregate in the semi-finals by Inter, led by that man Facchetti again.

But no hard-luck story is complete without Spain: they missed out on a place in the 1954 World Cup finals after beating Turkey in a two-legged qualifier 4-2 on aggregate. Sadly, aggregate scores counted for nothing in those days, and having won and lost a leg apiece, the teams played off. After the inevitable draw (2-2), it was down to a blind Italian boy to draw lots; even he could see what was going to happen next.

[Mudcat]

I really couldn't tell you for sure. The only instance of a coin-flip deciding a match in a major championship that I could find (that's the important bit) was in 1968.

Sorry, I was probably getting obnoxious there with my questions. What can I say? I hunger for knowledge.

It just seems like, from the information I have so far, the World Cup title itself must have been decided on a coinflip at some point. I'm obviously not an expert but I have some idea of how common ties are.

I just need to be more patient. Someone around here must know more of the history.



EDIT - after now reading that article (which is written with a delightful level of attitude and sarcasm BTW. I'm jealous of the author) I guess the World Cup finals have always managed to work themselves out on the field of play.

[tacomax]

I think it's one of those rules which seems odd now but must have worked pretty well for a number of years. Once it affected the outcome of a major championship for the first time, I'd wager that the football authorities came up with a different solution - i.e. penalty shootouts.

The drawing of lots is still used in football championship final stages as well as group qualifiers (as a last resort). I couldn't tell you the last time it was used, but there are so many determinants for choosing between teams that it's not a regular occurance (in fact I can't think of a time when the drawsing of lots has been utilised).

These are the rules for the qualifying stages of the 2008 European Championship:

If two or more teams are equal on points on completion of the group matches, the following criteria are applied to determine the rankings.

1. Higher number of points obtained in the group matches played among the teams in question.
2. Superior goal difference from the group matches played among the teams in question.
3. Higher number of goals scored in the group matches played among the teams in question.
4. Higher number of goals scored away from home in the group matches played among the teams in question.
5. If, after applying criteria 1) to 4) to several teams, two or more teams still have an equal ranking, the criteria 1) to 4) will be reapplied to determine the ranking of these teams. If this procedure does not lead to a decision, criteria 6) and 7) will apply.
6. Results of all group matches: 1. Superior goal difference 2. Higher number of goals scored 3. Higher number of goals scored away from home 4. Fair play conduct.
7. Drawing of lots.

And these are the rules for the World Cup finals:

In the first stage (the group stage), teams are drawn into eight groups of four. Eight teams are seeded at the draw (based on both current FIFA World Rankings and recent World Cups), and assigned a group. The other teams are drawn at random. Since 1998, constraints have applied to the draw to ensure that no group contains more than two European teams or more than one team from any other confederation. Each group plays a round-robin tournament, guaranteeing that every team will play at least three matches. The last round of matches of each group is held simultaneously to prevent collusion between nations. Since 1994, three points have been awarded for a win, one for a draw and none for a loss (prior to this, winners only received two points). The top two teams from each group advance to the second stage (the knockout stage). If two or more teams finish level on points, tie-breakers are used: first is goal difference, then total goals scored, then head-to-head results, and finally drawing of lots.

[daystrom]

what I find really funny is when one team shoots the ball about 50 feet wide and the fans go nuts.

I believe some of the junior leagues here in Canada have used the remove a player every 5 or 10 minutes method to decide game.

[Willie Bee]

I believe some of the junior leagues here in Canada have used the remove a player every 5 or 10 minutes method to decide game.

Wow! Now that is an interesting idea. Can you imagine if they did that in OT for football or hoops, or extra innings for baseball?

[Mudcat]

I'll take any method over a coinflip.

[natrass]

I'll take any method over a coinflip.

Yeah, I dont think they were crowd pleasers. 70,000 people holding their breath while they toss a coin.

As for drawing of lots (what is that BTW ... drawing straws?) anyway in 1990 World Cup in the England-Ireland-Holland-Egypt group i remember if the last game had been a draw lots would have been used. (I am not certain but I think they did draw lots to decide second/third place in the end).

taco ... do you not have a photo in your hardrive of 50,000 people watching a toss? Maybe while holding a cat?

[Baphomet]

I've seen in Costa Rica and Concacaf (North-, Central-America and Caribbean) some tourneys that ended up tied to be decided by shoot outs. Different than penalties, a player runs from the center of the field with the ball and has about 10 sec to score. The goalkeeper may stay waiting or run and stop the other player. It was done as a test as far as I know, it's really exciting that one on one.
Regular penalties are unfair imo.

[Mudcat]

That sounds better than Penalties to me. If they aren't going to implement my suggestion of moving back the Penalty kick spot, I say go for these shootouts like Baphomet is describing.