Millenium and BetOnSports theft -- Facts from the player himself

[Patrick McIrish]

Here's what I posted at another site, the only reason I mention this is because I believe it shows a mindset that these people have for looking at reasons to confiscate money that is not theirs. This is not an isolated case, this seems to be policy. Plenty of other cases out there too, just posting one I was personally affilliated with...



The good news for the RX is this bullshit will probably keep me off the site for a while. Not going to quit altogether, but definitely going to slow down. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the RX and certainly not Wil, it's not their action that is stiffing the player, only the book should be held responsible. I just don't think I can stomach coming over and seeing their advertising all over this place when they have a green light now to steal money whenever they want to paint someone as wise.

I worked at the RX I handled a casino problem where this same outfit of books was not going to pay a kid who won 25k in their casino. Same stuff, at first I thought it was going to be the he was part of a professonal blackjack playing team excuse, instead the reason ended up being because the kid was "manipulating the software". I am always cycnical when hearing from the players but it became obvious right off the bat that this was not true. Unbelievably after a long fight we eventually got the kid paid.

Boy was I happy for them, they tried like hell to give me part of the money because they thought it was gone. I spoke to his wife and she broke down crying when they heard they were going to get paid afterall. I am sure Sting will remember this case because he was the one who sent it to me. Good thing the guy found the forums huh? Problem is it looks like even when they find the forums now it's still not going to be good enough. Sorry if this is harsh, I am just sick of advertising monies giving a book a license to steal.

[Mudcat]

Can somebody explan this situation to me like i'm a 4 year old.What did they say happened???He bet the same game as alot of wiseguys on the game he won???
Is there something wrong with making a deposit and betting the deposit and the bonus on one time???

I just don't get what they are even trying to say???

They didn't really say anything, joe blow. That's the problem. They didn't deny anything that was said; they just copied and pasted a few rules from their website.

By posting those specific rules there are obvious (weaselly) insinuations - they are wishing people would jump to certain conclusions in their favor - but they have actually said nothing.

As far as I can see, what happened was there was a mutually agreed upon bonus scalping arrangement between book and player. The book offered big bonuses and limits knowing the player's betting patterns. The player accepted. Game on. This happens all the time.

But at some point the book decided to steal the player's funds. They just wanted to keep his money. Maybe they were hoping he didn't know about posting forums. Maybe they figured that, if he did, they could cover their butts with weaselly insinuations.

And here we are.

[Mudcat]

The worst part is that if I was running a book, the last person in the world I would want to be speaking up on my behalf is a scammer who doubles up as a pathological liar. Maybe I'm just funny like that.

It's similar to AK Syndrome. I always felt like AK was more aware that he was being deceptive, but the effect was the same. Anytime I would see AK say a book was solid I would immediately think, "Uh oh, I'm using extra caution with those guys."

[SBR_John]

It's similar to AK Syndrome. I always felt like AK was more aware that he was being deceptive, but the effect was the same. Anytime I would see AK say a book was solid I would immediately think, "Uh oh, I'm using extra caution with those guys."

AK is by far not the only one.
Players should be careful when they see a recommendation by a poster especailly from a low tier book.

A well respected poster a couple of years ago was fighting for his money at a book called NewAgeBets. NAB agreed to pay him if he would hit the forums and say what a great book they were. 1 week after his flattering endorsement post the book went belly up.

[isetcap]

I get the impression that Art is scheming in this situation, and BoS knows he is scheming yet does not want to reveal his specific scheme to the forum for fear that other devious types will try to execute the same model. I hope nobody here is naive enough to think that Art is just some benign player who doesn't mind losing and that BoS is so stupid as to simply deny a fair player his winnings.

I'll reserve judgement until somebody gives me the real story, because thus far neither Art nor BoS has done so.

[Bill Dozer]

I get the impression that Art is scheming in this situation, and BoS knows he is scheming yet does not want to reveal his specific scheme to the forum for fear that other devious types will try to execute the same model. I hope nobody here is naive enough to think that Art is just some benign player who doesn't mind losing and that BoS is so stupid as to simply deny a fair player his winnings.

I'll reserve judgement until somebody gives me the real story, because thus far neither Art nor BoS has done so.

BOS simply doesn't think there is anything wrong with taking winnings derived from bonus funds. BOS discussed their reasons behind the actions in detail and it didn't include a broken rule. I am sure his account is under the microscope and everything from unpaid parking tickets is being reviewed. Discussions will resume Monday.

[SBR_John]

The lesson here is to stay with the top books. Who needs this? If you are a player you have to ask yourself if BOS is worth chancing this level of pure grief?

[Doug]

Wonder if their stock will tank over this ?

[isetcap]

The lesson here is to stay with the top books. Who needs this? If you are a player you have to ask yourself if BOS is worth chancing this level of pure grief?

I would imagine there are quite a few players who find "chancing" it to be very profitable.

[Art]

What BetOnSports is trying to say is that they reserve the right to steal your money once it is in their hands.

I take it that when the player lost $23,000 leading up to the theft, he was playing by the rules?

Hey guys - sorry I was out all day and just got back to see all these
posts...

I would like to thank everyone for all their support (including all the
players offering to contact customer service and Bill and John’s
support from SBR offering to file formal complaints with the gaming
commissions and trying to speak to this public company's COO).

Just in terms of the latest spin that BetonSports is throwing out there
to justify stealing my money. I want you all to know the facts:

BetonSports' original reason for limiting me and threatening to keep my
bonus and winnings had to do with my knowing lines and betting "steam."
As you probably all know, that is bogus - but also irrelevant and not
a reason to steal. (Just in case you're interested, I am a pretty
average gambler – as you can probably tell from the fact that I'm done
$23k. And in terms of lines, my first wager at BoS turned out to be a
horrible line - I got the Blue Jays at +135 for my $9,000 and I think
the line closed closed at +145 or +150. And in terms of moving lines,
the BOS line manager himself admitted that he was wrong in thinking
that the line was moving.) But regardless – what does that have to do
with my money?? If they don’t want me to bet there that’s fine...but
give me the money I won!!!!!!

Anyway, only after Bill at SBR contacted them and said that this was
unfair to the player did they invent this new excuse. They say there
is another player playing at Millenium from a similar IP address.
There a bunch of people who gamble at my office, so I am not surprised.
I checked my betting history with the only guy I know of that plays at
Millenium (who doesn't play at BoS from what he told me) and there was
only ONE wager that was the same that I could tell. Also, I am
depositing like 2 or 3 thousand dollars there as you saw from my
Neteller history, so even BoS couldn't claim that multiple people are
coming in for the maximum and trying to circumvent limits.

Now they are keeping my money for referring friends to their site?
Come on. If they had a problem with that – perhaps they should have
said something while I was in the process in losing $23000 to them?????
Now all of a sudden after I finally win a wager they make these
ridiculous accusations??

Even according to their standpoint of stealing the bonus and its
winnings I should have gotten at a bare minimum $7800. By sending me
$6414 without my permission to close the account and without waiting to
hear my side they clearly are showing that they believe that theft is
ok.

I hope this clears things up a little for those who were hearing
ridiculous accusations and lets hope to hear some good news soon –
though from what I am hearing about the past crimes of BetonSports I
highly doubt we will get a favorable resolution. My only hope here is
the amazing Bill Dozer and Sbr.

[Doug]

looks like stock dropped about 2% Fri if I'm reading this correctly.

http://www.lse.co.uk/shareprice.asp?shareprice=BSS&share=betonsports_plc_ord_1p

[jason]

looks like stock dropped about 2% Fri if I'm reading this correctly.

http://www.lse.co.uk/shareprice.asp?...rts_plc_ord_1p

It's because of sites like SBR that these books can't get away with this garbage. I stoppped playing at BOS and all of its related sites, and I hope this player gets paid and BOS suffers the condequences of this ridiculous situation. I want to see what all of these sites that claim not to be paid off by garbaage books are going to do - this is the clearest example of outright theft from a player and this has to worry anyone.

Bill, keep us posted on how the COO of a company will allow this to stand.

[Chuck Sims]

6 years ago I was warned to stay away from BetOnSports from a Vegas sharp. He told me they'll steal your money if you win.

6 years later, BetOnSports continues to rob players. Before the payoffs to watchdog sites, these websites rated BOS a "NO PAY" sportsbook. Stiff book was synomonous with BetOnSports.

[jason]

I would like any site who claims not to be paid off by BOS but still recommends this book in any way to explain to the player in this case what the hell they plan to do to make sure he gets his money back.

Challenge extended. Until then, no one can trust them or the books they recommend. Period.

SBR has reached out to their corporate owners and has promsied to pursue this, as they usually do, until justice is delivered. SBR also downgraded BOS family to C- and I see the D's next week if this is not resolved. That will cripple them to a certain extent, unless they rectify this and get players to believe it won't happen again.

[SBR_John]

Good post Jason. As we mentioned the downgrade process has begun and will continue. There also could be more Artie's out there so we want to find out how many other others as well as future BOS policy. Let's just say the rating outlook for BOS is negative.

[THE SHRINK]

John or Bill,

With your permission, can you have Art shoot me an email?

I will be speaking with BOS upper management tomorrow and I might need to have him available...

Thanks,

THE SHRINK

[slash]

(Just in case you're interested, I am a pretty
average gambler – as you can probably tell from the fact that I'm done
$23k.

Come on now Art, we aren't stupid. As Halifax also mentioned you are a class a scalper, so don't make it sound like you have lost $23k. Thanks.

[natrass]

I get the impression that Art is scheming in this situation, and BoS knows he is scheming yet does not want to reveal his specific scheme to the forum for fear that other devious types will try to execute the same model. I hope nobody here is naive enough to think that Art is just some benign player who doesn't mind losing and that BoS is so stupid as to simply deny a fair player his winnings.

I'll reserve judgement until somebody gives me the real story, because thus far neither Art nor BoS has done so.

Yes, i am beginning to smell a rodent here.

Can i change my original verdict of BOS being thieves and to be downgraded to F- and modify that to verdict withheld awaiting further info from player?

[Terris]

this is nonsense...does it matter if he is a scalper, or if someone else made a bet on the same game?
A theft is a theft...BoS/Mill has no way of telling/proving that someone is a scalper.

Also speaking of a betting syndicate, when the 2 bets didnt even bust the limit together, is just another shit book spin.

[Art]

Apparently a poster or two misunderstood my saying that I am a pretty average gambler -- I lost 23k. I didn't mean that my bankroll was average. I meant my knowledge about games was average. I don't always win and I don't always lose.

I mentioned the 23k to show how they kept luring me in to deposit more money until I finally won. We are talking about 9 reloads and the sales team imploring me to raise my deposits in order to qualify for the same promotions. In the end of the day, no one can make excuses for what they are trying to steal from me.

If anyone has any further questions about the situation, I am happy to answer - I believe Bill knows just about everything that I know as well. BetOnSports ios just trying to make up additional excuses for keeping my money.

[jason]

this is nonsense...does it matter if he is a scalper, or if someone else made a bet on the same game?
A theft is a theft...BoS/Mill has no way of telling/proving that someone is a scalper.

Also speaking of a betting syndicate, when the 2 bets didnt even bust the limit together, is just another shit book spin.

It seems that BOS didn't even claim that this was an attempt to bust the limits - the player was depositing $2,000 per deposit.

Enough with the smoke and mirros, BOS - and explain to players how you will rectify this situation.

[slash]

Apparently a poster or two misunderstood my saying that I am a pretty average gambler -- I lost 23k. I didn't mean that my bankroll was average. I meant my knowledge about games was average. I don't always win and I don't always lose.

I mentioned the 23k to show how they kept luring me in to deposit more money until I finally won. We are talking about 9 reloads and the sales team imploring me to raise my deposits in order to qualify for the same promotions. In the end of the day, no one can make excuses for what they are trying to steal from me.

If anyone has any further questions about the situation, I am happy to answer - I believe Bill knows just about everything that I know as well. BetOnSports ios just trying to make up additional excuses for keeping my money.

Come on now Art, we aren't stupid. As Halifax also mentioned you are a class a scalper, so don't make it sound like you have lost $23k. Thanks.

If you aren't paid, only an F rating is appropriate for BOS.

[SBR_John]

I wouldnt mind seeing his lifetime plays and seeing for myself if he was scalping. However, there is nothing wrong with scalping so except for curiosity sake it is not material to this dispute. BOS loved his azz when he lost $23k and they saw then what his betting pattern was.

[JC]

Why should it matter if he was a scalper? They put up lines, he made bets, he could have won or lost with them. What business is it of BOS/Millenium if he had offsetting wagers somewhere else? Has it really come to this?

Second, who says he was a scalper? I saw one or two posts from posters throwing out that accusation based on nothing more than speculation.

Finally, why should any of this surprise anyone? BOS is a book that was built on stolen money. While there have been the well known incidents, there were also many smaller ones people never heard about. This behavior is nothing new for them. They usually get away with it.

Why do they get away with it? Because too many players give them a pass. Because too many watchdogs look the other way for a dollar. These sites should be the toughest critics of the BOS's of the world yet they have been welcomed with open arms by both watchdogs and posters alike, not all posters but enough.

So now almost everyone is seeing the light. Where were all of you when those of us in the know warned you of their past thefts? Where was your outrage then?

Whether or not they pay this player they will still be the same old crooks. They will have open stiff jobs. They will still be a "final decision" away from doing this again, and they will. The only question is whether or not we will hear about it.

I can't fault the Rx, EOG, MW, or TOW, for not taking them down now. I fault them all for taking them in the first place knowing what they know. Every now and then I will have a married friend come to me bitching and moaning about the habits of their spouse. I am quick to point out that they had those same habits when they married them. Did they think marriage would change them?

No different here, the forum sites lowered their standards and took ad dollars from known crooks. Why would that change them? They are still the same crooks as the day they first day they put up their banner.

Even if they pay this player, they will still be the same crooked book they were yesterday, last week, last month, and last year. $4500 is not going to change that fact.

[slash]

It matters nothing if he was a scalper or not, but he keeps on mentioning how he lost $23k when in fact he just won basically the same amounts at eg. pinnacle. It's so obvious from his betting pattern: Make a deposit, bet it all and reup in case he loses.

[jason]

I don't see this guy complaining about how much he lost on the initial wagers - I see him being pretty open and focusing on what is being stolen now. I think he mentioned the previous losses in a post about his betting history there. To me it seems likes he's getting the rawest deal from a book that I have seen.

Regardless, that's what I am focusing on when I make my decision about what to do with my account at these books.

[Mudcat]

It matters nothing if he was a scalper or not, but he keeps on mentioning how he lost $23k when in fact he just won basically the same amounts at eg. pinnacle. It's so obvious from his betting pattern: Make a deposit, bet it all and reup in case he loses.

That's certainly what it looks like. Although JC is correct to point out that it's just speculation. It's possible that he did just lose the money. There are some straight gamblers out there who can see the obvious benefit of taking bonuses.

Anyway, it's irrelevant.

Whether the player actually lost 23K or not, he was down that much at BOS and that is relevant when assessing their actions IMO. They were actively participating in the players actions, whatever was behind them. Now they're calling foul.

[marc]

Slash,

The player is in a catch 22 with BOS. Lets say he is a scalper. Then he could easily prove he's not a steam player or a syndicate player by showing his opposing wagers. But then BOS owuld come back and say, well we're not going to pay the guy because he's a proffessional bonus whore. So in fairness to the player, the only thing he could sayi in his defense is simply that the plays were not steam plays or syndicate type plays.

This should be a very simple case. Someone at BOS, in aposition of authority closed the players account, returned his deposit and only a portion of his winnings. Why can't that person in simple english tell us what he believed the player did wrong.

I think BOS management should be able to appreciate that for anyone who has money there, and who accepted a bonus, it's a scary thought to think that they cound confiscate our bonus and winnings at any time without any form of recourse.

As for the forums who are hanging the BOS banner, I don't think the issue should be about BOS in particluar. IMHO, you shouldn't hang anyone's banner without having an arbitration agreement in place. In my mind, if a forum is going to take on an advertiser they should make the book agree that they will allow the fourm to arbitrate these types of disputes. OTherwise you are doing your posters a tremendous disservice.

[SBR_John]

Shrink, yes no problem.

[Halifax]

Slash,

The player is in a catch 22 with BOS. Lets say he is a scalper. Then he could easily prove he's not a steam player or a syndicate player by showing his opposing wagers. But then BOS owuld come back and say, well we're not going to pay the guy because he's a proffessional bonus whore. So in fairness to the player, the only thing he could sayi in his defense is simply that the plays were not steam plays or syndicate type plays.

Yes, that's one of the problems with the player coming out and admitting that he was scalping ... with BOS grasping at straws so far, they would use anything they could to try to further their case, even if it's not relevant in the least to the situation at hand. But I disagree with how the player admitting he's scalping would prove that he wasn't betting steam ... most scalps develop because of a steam move, when one player bets one side at a book before the book moves their line, and bets the other side at another book after the line move ... so I don't know how admitting to it would help prove that he wasn't betting steam.

Of course he was scalping ... as Slash and Mudcat have mentioned, it's very easy to recognize, with about 99% certainty ... but as Slash, Mudcat, JC, John, and all the rest have mentioned, it's irrelevant to this case ... the only thing relevant is the betting relationship between the player and the book in question (BetMill) ... what the player may or may not have bet at another book on the other side of the game is the player's business and the player's business alone.

[THE SHRINK]

Shrink, yes no problem.

Still waiting for Art's email...

Thanks,
Ken

[natrass]

Ok, I have finished reconsidering.

BOS should be downgraded. This is clearly theft.

As mentioned, it matters not if he was scalping but ... here on the forum, it is effectively not telling the whole truth ... decieving us if you will .... so it does diminish sympathy IMHO.

[Uncle B]

JC

Why should it matter if he was a scalper? They put up lines, he made bets, he could have won or lost with them. What business is it of BOS/Millenium if he had offsetting wagers somewhere else?



Exactly.


whats the next "rule" going to be for BoS?

"If you are found to have an active account at any other online wagering shops, your funds will be immediately confiscated"?


what a crock of shiat.

the guy is being robbed... these excuses are lame at best, and don't come close to excusing the theft of this players money.

[SBR_John]

Shrink,
Bill has it, He will be in the office at 9:30 your time. His office phone is 830-515-4122 or write him at bill_dozer@sportsbookreview.com. I personally dont have it.

[SBR_John]

Here is my correspondance with millenium:

Cc: customerservice@millsports.com
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: mailing list


Mr. ******

Can you please explain me the reason for your e-mail, I just checked your account and couldn't find a reason for your attitude, you have play with us for several years now, and I really want to know what caused this.

Please feel free to contact me via e-mail or telephone.

Fraternally,

Manny Deluca
Customer Service Management Team
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: customerservice@millsports.com
Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 3:28 PM
Subject: mailing list


Take me off your mailing list, close my account and **** off you thieves.
-----------------------------------------------------

Smuggled this over from the Rx... What a classic!