How betfair screws over winners

[hels]

This topic has been mentioned before (primarily summer 2011) but it's a good warning to those who bet there.

Betfair claims this effects 0.5% of all users but please note this is likely to effect anyone who makes money/withdraws money from BetFair.

How betfair (exchange site) works. There is no juice in the listed odds. You can either lay a bet (be the bookmaker) or back a bet (be the bettor). Let's say you back a bet: $100 bet to win $100 (ev odds). Your bet wins. However, betfair takes commission of 5%. So, only $95 is credited to your account balance. If the bet were to lose, you simply lose the $100.

Betfair has something called Premium Charges (PC) that effect about 0.5%. PC comes into effect when/if your gross winnings are too high compared to the amount of commission that you have paid. The magic ratio of gross winnings to commission is 20%

Betfair imposes this 20% tax after you have bet in 250 markets. jjgold and roxxxyfish clear 250 markets a month. If you only bet 1 game a day on average you'll clear 250 markets in less than 9 months.

Situation, you have bet in 250 markets and have won $10,000 but only paid $1000 in commission. The 20% tax comes into effect. It is removed (if necessary) every Sunday at midnight. The first week you make $1000 but only pay $120 in commission. Well 20% of $1000 is $200. Since you have only paid $120 in commission, betfair will remove another $80 from your account balance.

There are also other premium charges that betfair says only effect 0.1% of all users. These are 40%, 50% and 60% Premium Charges on your weekly winnings. The 60% comes into effect if your gross winnings to commission ratio is lower than 10%.

If anyone has any questions or wants clarification please ask. I have been reading about this for the past day as I will soon fall into the 20% category if I don't change my betting styles. I am not pleased.

[jjgold]

If you put this all into play then Pinnacle must have better value??

[hels]

If you put this all into play then Pinnacle must have better value??

If you don't make many live plays or are always trying to hedge winners (win a little bit no matter what happens) then Pinnacle/5dimes are certainly the best books.

If you like to make live bets right until the final whistle then betfair is your best option.

[TheCentaur]

Sounds a lot like Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT)

[Thehusker]

Price Per Head

[YouMama]

def seems like a scam, I dont understand why a exchange site has to scam people like that, why does a bet excahnge site have to cost anymore than a stock exchange site?

just charge a flat$ fee for each bet, and a 5% fee on total winnings ... ameritrade style ... if u want more volume, grow some balls and find a way to get into the american market

[shaunovery]

Betfair only charges commission on your winnings starting at 5% mines at 3.7

[hels]

def seems like a scam, I dont understand why a exchange site has to scam people like that, why does a bet excahnge site have to cost anymore than a stock exchange site?

just charge a flat$ fee for each bet, and a 5% fee on total winnings ... ameritrade style ... if u want more volume, grow some balls and find a way to get into the american market

I feel exactly the same way. The supposed reasoning they gave is they are trying to target courtside traders who are truly betting live and able to take bets before the satellite tv delay. This also applies to the people who have access to live feed of racetracks. In reality the new 40-60% tax came in after betfairs stock plummeted 50%. They had to make more money somehow.

This is why there has been so much talk about changing to betdaq. No one really knows why betdaq hasn't spent the necessary money to lure the current betfair users to betdaq. Sign up at betdaq you'll pay 3% commission maximum and they even have promotions of 1% or 2.5% at times.

I am beginning to wonder if betfair is paying betdaq a substantial amount so they can continue their monopoly on the exchange market in Europe/Asia/Australia.

[hels]

Betfair only charges commission on your winnings starting at 5% mines at 3.7

True. Depending on when you signed up and how many player points you have accumulated. My commission is at 4% as I've never bothered to get all the paperwork documented. I had my Aussie account verified but for some reason they said I need to send all the paperwork in again

I won't get in depth as it's confusing as fukk to explain but betfair actually doesn't use the $ amount of commission you have paid. They use what is called 'implied commission.' They fukk winners over this way too.

[smoke a bowl]

If you put this all into play then Pinnacle must have better value??

By a ton. Betfair is the biggest joke on the planet. 5% commission lmSaBao.

[Roxxyfish]

I play there but betfair was never my first choice, the more player points the less taxes,and by the way i never need to send any papers in for the aussie market

[hels]

I play there but betfair was never my first choice, the more player points the less taxes,and by the way i never need to send any papers in for the aussie market

It won't let me play any of the Aussie markets even if I did send the papers in. No AFL, NBL or Aus union/league

[Hareeba!]

It won't let me play any of the Aussie markets even if I did send the papers in. No AFL, NBL or Aus union/league

Something wrong with that.
If you agree to comply with the Aust. conditions you will be allowed to play.
Have you asked for clarification?

[Roxxyfish]

It won't let me play any of the Aussie markets even if I did send the papers in. No AFL, NBL or Aus union/league

buddy i am sure you can use the aussie market , you just have to set it up i had the same problem i am sure you can bet there go to live help they will explain

[Roxxyfish]

you have to transfer the amount you want to bet , to the aussie market then it should work

[wantitall4moi]

No but wait all the wannabe sharps claim it is the best thing going because it handles billions in play.

Shows what these so called smart guys know.

I told peopel betfair was a joke along long time ago. Everyone loves to try and use math and the typical catch phrases to try and defend it. But simple addition, subtraction, and multiplication is all you need to use to see youre getting buried in vig/commission/taxes/premiums there. They charge you for 3 or 4 things, those all add up after awhile. It is like a bank that charges you for everything you do with them. Its only a bucck or tweo here and there but after awhile it all adds up. They dont offer nearly enough good options to come close to being able to do what they do there.


I am sure the guys who swear by them will come in with their typical rhetoric but if you are a winning player or an advantage player and are really serious about making a profit from gambling (betfair theoretical target clientele) theyre pretty much the worst option available.

[jjgold]

Betdaq has not grown men
Volume is not even average on most events
tennis low, horses ok but not booming, soccer only for big matches

[Hareeba!]

I'm never going to defend Betfair's Premium Charge but it does irritate me as to how much false, incomplete and misleading information is posted on this forum about it.

Here is a summary and the link to the full details for anyone who is truly interested in learning rather than simply bashing Betfair over it.


Premium Charge Summary

You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the lifetime of your account, you satisfy the following criteria:
Your account is in profit;
Your total charges generated are less than 20%† of gross profits; and
You bet in more than 250 markets.
Two further conditions reduce the likelihood that you will be required to pay the Premium Charge:
Any single win that constitutes more than 50% of your gross profits over the lifetime of your account will be excluded from the calculation; and
Each customer will have a lifetime allowance of £1,000 against the Premium Charge.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20%† of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
The difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.

http://www.betfair.com/AUS_NZL/aboutUs/Betfair.Charges/

Furthermore, not everyone pays 5% commission. Regular users pay less.

After factoring in commission Betfair's odds are generally very competitive with the best in the game such as Pinnacle, SBO and Matchbook on most sports.

I know this because I am a keen price shopper and I place a very high percentage of my bets at Betfair.

And I've been playing there for a decade, am comfortably in profit and am nowhere near being subject to the premium charge.

[hels]

you have to transfer the amount you want to bet , to the aussie market then it should work

Maybe it has changed since 2010 but even if I can play Aussie markets I am able to transfer funds into my aussie account but am unable to transfer funds out of my aussie account. So unless I go get all the stamps/signatures the money would stay in the aussie account.

[Hareeba!]

No but wait all the wannabe sharps claim it is the best thing going because it handles billions in play.

Shows what these so called smart guys know.

I told peopel betfair was a joke along long time ago. Everyone loves to try and use math and the typical catch phrases to try and defend it. But simple addition, subtraction, and multiplication is all you need to use to see youre getting buried in vig/commission/taxes/premiums there. They charge you for 3 or 4 things, those all add up after awhile. It is like a bank that charges you for everything you do with them. Its only a bucck or tweo here and there but after awhile it all adds up. They dont offer nearly enough good options to come close to being able to do what they do there.


I am sure the guys who swear by them will come in with their typical rhetoric but if you are a winning player or an advantage player and are really serious about making a profit from gambling (betfair theoretical target clientele) theyre pretty much the worst option available.

Sorry mate but you really don't know what you're talking about.
Have you ever had an account with Betfair?
The only charge I pay is a commission on winning bets. What are these three or four other things they charge me for?
Free deposits. Fast and free withdrawals.

[Hareeba!]

Maybe it has changed since 2010 but even if I can play Aussie markets I am able to transfer funds into my aussie account but am unable to transfer funds out of my aussie account. So unless I go get all the stamps/signatures the money would stay in the aussie account.

The system hasn't changed since day one of operation in Australia. Perhaps the ID requirements have a bit but not the way Betfair's wallet system operates.

Transferring funds back and forth between your main and Australian wallets is very simple and instant.

Please get the facts before posting more inaccuracies about it.

[Roxxyfish]

Maybe it has changed since 2010 but even if I can play Aussie markets I am able to transfer funds into my aussie account but am unable to transfer funds out of my aussie account. So unless I go get all the stamps/signatures the money would stay in the aussie account.

hmm i have Betfair for about 6 years now, i did send documents when i made my first withdrawl,but never need to send for aussie market, my last bet in aussie market was this year for the rugby world cup i could transfer funds without problem

[hels]

Here's a good example of how the tax (you could just substitute 20% for the 60% example) will kill you in the long run. Plain and simple, if you lose you don't get a refund. If you win, they take a good chunk.


For a year after July 18th, I could lose £10,000 one week and win £10,000 the next week, and have it alternating each week like that for a year. I almost certainly wouldn't pay enough commission to escape the tax by getting my percentage of commission generated to 40%, so I'll have paid 26 x £6,000 in Premium Charge = £156,000 over the course of the year even though my earnings from gambling were zero. Therefore I'm actually £156,000 down even though I've actually done not too badly to break even. That sort of thing can easily happen, not as symmetric as that obviously, but along those lines. You have ups and downs over the course of a year, some weeks you lose, some weeks you win. This means you get screwed even more. If you actually did break even every single week, even though this is exactly the same, you'd be £156,000 better off. If they had any sense, they'd apply the tax over a whole year, and not week to week. This would of course earn them less money so that'll never happen. The Premium Charge already apparently makes Betfair £10m per year. If people don't leave, it will probably make them £100m per year at least using the revised criteria.

[hels]

Sorry mate but you really don't know what you're talking about.
Have you ever had an account with Betfair?
The only charge I pay is a commission on winning bets. What are these three or four other things they charge me for?
Free deposits. Fast and free withdrawals.

From the top of my head:

1) % of deposits. I believe it's 1.5% taken off. So $100 deposit only give $98.50 to your account
2) Commission. Up to 5% of all winnings
3) Premium Charges
4) Skimming

That's 4 right there and I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting.

[horja1]

Transferring funds back and forth between your main and Australian wallets is very simple and instant.

Please get the facts before posting more inaccuracies about it.

You are wrong ... even before I have made the first transfer to my australian wallet I saw a message saying that in x weeks after the first transfer I have to send them x documents, otherwise my aussie wallet will be blocked .., I actually lost all the money from this wallet and forgot about sending those documents and when I wanted to transfer some funds for the Australian Open I couldnt, because my aussie wallet was suspended ...

P.S.I have already sent to Betfair, a few years ago, all required documents for my main wallet and also have made a lot of withdrawals.

[hels]

You are wrong ... even before I have made the first transfer to my australian wallet I saw a message saying that in x weeks after the first transfer I have to send them x documents, otherwise my aussie wallet will be blocked .., I actually lost all the money from this wallet and forgot about sending those documents and when I wanted to transfer some funds for the Australian Open I couldnt, because my aussie wallet was suspended ... P.S.I have already sent to Betfair, a few years ago, all required documents for my main wallet and also have made a lot of withdrawals.

Exactly. They have these silly rules/regs to extract every dollar out of you they can.

[Hareeba!]

From the top of my head:

1) % of deposits. I believe it's 1.5% taken off. So $100 deposit only give $98.50 to your account
2) Commission. Up to 5% of all winnings
3) Premium Charges
4) Skimming

That's 4 right there and I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting.

I said I don't pay anything more than commission (at much less than 5%)
SOME users might pay more charges but MOST don't. It is irresponsible for you to post that three or four charges will apply.
I deposit via Moneybookers - no fees in or out. Bank transfers are also a fee free option.
Read the Premium Charge information - you will see that most will never qualify for it and new users have an $100K allowance up front before it would ever become an issue.

Your current card information can be reviewed at any time on the My Card Details page.

• There is no fee for deposits with most UK debit cards on GBP accounts or with most Irish Laser cards on EUR accounts. There is a 1.5% fee for all other debit and CC deposits. Some card issuers impose additional charges for CC deposits and customers should contact their card issuer for details of any charges that may be applied.

[Hareeba!]

Exactly. They have these silly rules/regs to extract every dollar out of you they can.

More BS.

Betfair can't be blamed for the Australian ID requirements which they have to comply with to be able to offer Australian markets to their customers. It is a significant cost to them. How do you figure they are extracting more dollars due to it?

[hels]

How betfair skims (from their website): As part of the cross-matching process, Betfair uses an internal account which acts as a counterparty to the bets being cross-matched. The cross-matching process may result in a small amount of residual funds remaining in the internal account in some instances. This residual may occur because Betfair only matches customer bets at discrete odds intervals.
Any residual funds that accumulate in this internal counterparty account as a result of the operation of cross-matching on Australian markets will be provided back to customers through future events involving cross-matching markets, in a manner that is approved by the Tasmanian Gaming Commission.

Has anyone who has played the Aussie markets ever been provided with extra funds

[hels]

I said I don't pay anything more than commission (at much less than 5%)
SOME users might pay more charges but MOST don't. It is irresponsible for you to post that three or four charges will apply.
I deposit via Moneybookers - no fees in or out. Bank transfers are also a fee free option.
Read the Premium Charge information - you will see that most will never qualify for it and new users have an $100K allowance up front before it would ever become an issue.

Your current card information can be reviewed at any time on the My Card Details page.

• There is no fee for deposits with most UK debit cards on GBP accounts or with most Irish Laser cards on EUR accounts. There is a 1.5% fee for all other debit and CC deposits. Some card issuers impose additional charges for CC deposits and customers should contact their card issuer for details of any charges that may be applied.

You must get your facts straight as this post sounds like some betfair rep bullsh*t. 100k allowance, good luck on that, try 1k. I guess you don't pay luxury tax because you are a losing bettor. I'm sorry to hear that.

[hels]

More BS.

Betfair can't be blamed for the Australian ID requirements which they have to comply with to be able to offer Australian markets to their customers. It is a significant cost to them. How do you figure they are extracting more dollars due to it?

read about skimming.

[wantitall4moi]

LOL guys not paying arent winning end of story. Its all anecdotal if you win you pay end of story.

You guys can defend it all you want all youre basically doing is showing you either arent winning or are good at circumventing all the nonsense rules they have in place.

Yeah I had an account thre for about 4 months before I saw what a rip off it was. I dont mind sending ID and paperwork I gambled for aliving for quite a while so I wasnt hiding anything. But when you start getting ripped close to 15% it s alittle irritating.

My commission was 3.5% or something like that so it didnt look or sound bad. But I won, I also didnt dick around with trying to tip toe a quota of plays I bet what I wanted when I wanted. It was too much so that was a charge. I never got charged for deposits. I got charged for withdrawals though. A flat fee but when converted to a percentage it still was a bit even on a decent 4 figure withdrawal.

They also round down. They call it skimming. That is toal bullshit to. They claim it evens out. I made probably 5000 bets throught hmin 4 or 5 months, I NEVER EVER saw a single time where I got the rounded up side. I bet just that alone was 800-900 bux. I still have the paperwork out in the garage I am not going to go look it up but it was close to a grand they rounded me off.

I posted about all this months ago, people just dont read or dont care. Mostly because theyre all losers and losers dont have to worry about pennies when theyre getting buried by the hundreds or thousands week after week. But like I said if youre a winning player then it all adds up. But thats why these things dont get noticed because most people dont have a clue or they arent winning.

[jjgold]

Betfair clearly tells you that in order to trade on Aussie Sports documents are required and totally seperate from the UK ID Process

Its very simple to transfer money back and forth as long as you get verified for both UK and Aussie Wallets

[Hareeba!]

How betfair skims (from their website): As part of the cross-matching process, Betfair uses an internal account which acts as a counterparty to the bets being cross-matched. The cross-matching process may result in a small amount of residual funds remaining in the internal account in some instances. This residual may occur because Betfair only matches customer bets at discrete odds intervals.
Any residual funds that accumulate in this internal counterparty account as a result of the operation of cross-matching on Australian markets will be provided back to customers through future events involving cross-matching markets, in a manner that is approved by the Tasmanian Gaming Commission.

Has anyone who has played the Aussie markets ever been provided with extra funds

YES. I received a payment on this account late last year.

[wantitall4moi]

Betfair clearly tells you that in order to trade on Aussie Sports documents are required and totally seperate from the UK ID Process

Its very simple to transfer money back and forth as long as you get verified for both UK and Aussie Wallets

That is a non issue in terms of how they charge. But it does allow them to see where you are and might give them an idea of how much they can squeeze out of you.