Propaganda Show: US Press Slams Russia over Georgia

[ritehook]

No, nothin' to do with Hotlanta and the Bulldogs . . .

To read the American press and hear all the top politicos and bureaucrats, one would think that vicious Russian bear invaded Georgia in an unprovoked attack!

Hey, on the eve of the Olympics, with malice aforethoght, the Georgian presisdent invaded South Ossetia, which had been independent since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Killed a lot of Russian soldiers on the border when they did so.

S. Ossetians are not of Georgian ethnicity. Most are Russian citizens. They don't want to be a part of Georgia

Georgia also ain't no democracy, as the US press keeps repeating - unless democracy means you toss opposition politiicians into the slammer and close down thier newspapers.

[ritehook]

The Georgian prez campaigned on the slogan of bringing South Ossetia back behind Georgian borders. The people of that area don't want to be herded back, they prefer being citizens of Russia. If I recall rightly the US backed Kosovo's campaign for separation from Serbia.

Georgia has 2000 troops in Iraq. And to domonstrate the meaning of "blowback" re imperialist adverntures like Iraq, they now expect the US to fight Russia on their behalf - payback for their support in Iraq.

It never ends.

In return for th favor Geogia gave Bush/cheney, the US very recntly sent 2000 US troops to Georgia to play wargames with the Georgia military.

Wonder what would happen if Russia sent 2000 of its soldiers to train Mexican troops - say in Baja, near the big San Diego military bases?

Well, right now Russia is on the Georgia 30 yard line and the latter is conceding defeat. But the Bears will get in a few final licks before kicking the game-winning field goal, and going home with the easy win.

[EddieJones]

The timing was odd. Still hard to figure out who wants what.. Is Georgia throwing a hissy fit over the providences or whatever defecting or is Russia forcing their doctrine on an unsuspecting group? Another year another war.

[ritehook]

Hmm, I see a while back pavyracer beat me to this. It's called prescience.

http://forum.sbrforum.com/players-talk/63087-next-war-will-against-russia.html?highlight=war+with+russia

[ritehook]

The timing was odd. Still hard to figure out who wants what.. Is Georgia throwing a hissy fit over the providences or whatever defecting or is Russia forcing their doctrine on an unsuspecting group? Another year another war.

This is one the US can't get into, except in a nuclear way, and Putin, unlike Saddam, has nuked missiles aiming at New York, Washington, Omaha, Dallas, San Diego etc

The Georgian prez, some impossible Slavic name like Saarkashivli, won an election early this year by promising to bring S. Ossetia back into the fold - the province was part of Georgia for decades, WHEN GEORGIA WAS PART OF THE OLD SOVIET UNION.

In the ealry 90's, when the Soviet Union was becoming a fractured DisUnion, So Ossitia, different ethnic group from the Georgians, broke away and aligned with Russia, in a semi-independent status. The border was kept peaceful by both Russian and Georgia soldiers.

But emboldend by his alliance with Uncle Sappy, in Iraq, Prez Saarky launched his attack on S Ossetia, killing some Russian peacekeepers in the process.

I guess he figured that the US troops who had just been in his land playing war games on Russia's borders, would return like the Cavalry to save the day.

Fuk him.

[purecarnagge]

The idea behind this whole mess was to get Russia kicked out of the G8 and go down to the G7 where the US will be able to do what it wants again. Russia/China consistantly oppose us.

[daggerkobe]

exactly. none of the media mentioned that Georgia attacked first.

I say nuke em. Nuke the bastards. I mean would it really be that bad if we're the only ones left on the planet? I say hell no.

[EddieJones]

This is one the US can't get into, except in a nuclear way, and Putin, unlike Saddam, has nuked missiles aiming at New York, Washington, Omaha, Dallas, San Diego etc

The Georgian prez, some impossible Slavic name like Saarkashivli, won an election early this year by promising to bring S. Ossetia back into the fold - the province was part of Georgia for decades, WHEN GEORGIA WAS PART OF THE OLD SOVIET UNION.

In the ealry 90's, when the Soviet Union was becoming a fractured DisUnion, So Ossitia, different ethnic group from the Georgians, broke away and aligned with Russia, in a semi-independent status. The border was kept peaceful by both Russian and Georgia soldiers.

But emboldend by his alliance with Uncle Sappy, in Iraq, Prez Saarky launched his attack on S Ossetia, killing some Russian peacekeepers in the process.

I guess he figured that the US troops who had just been in his land playing war games on Russia's borders, would return like the Cavalry to save the day.

Fuk him.

A nuclear way?? It'll never come to that. Russia has too much invested in the world's economy now, to care less. Hopefully this crisis gets settled quickly.

If you really want to talk about a nuclear war, look no further than N.Korea. That's the only real threat for that.

[ritehook]

I doubt the US will do more than make angry noises at Russia. Perhaps the episode will make Washington rethink the wisdom of taking unstable and adventurous states into NAtO.

And of entering any more Blowback scenarios like the Iraq nonsense - which will sourly reverberate for decades in the U
S and elswwhere. Think that the Georgian warlords aren't sorely pissed over what they must think is the US punking out on them in the conflict with Russia --- after they sent all those troops to Iraq in the "war against terror."

Many sports fans want to see one huge event before they die - be it the Super Bowl, the Final Four, the World Cup, whatever.

I want to see the trial and execution of the Neos who got us into this echoing and never-ending madness. Front row seat, hot dogs, popcorn and beer at hand. "Take me out to the hangings, Take me out with the crowd . . . ."

[JBC77]

You know what was funny, Russian soldiers in uniform caught on camera robbing banks in Georgia.

[Data]

the Georgian presisdent invaded South Ossetia, which had been independent since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Nonsense. You cannot invade your own country. SO has been in fight for independence but it is still a part of Georgia.

Killed a lot of Russian soldiers...

A lot? Do you now how many? The Russians say 13, they are also known to unleash a soviet style propaganda during this war and were caught reporting civilian casualties that were exceeding the real ones in two orders of magnitude.

...on the border when they did so.

The border? What border? Another nonsense.

S. Ossetians are not of Georgian ethnicity. Most are Russian citizens. They don't want to be a part of Georgia

Georgia also ain't no democracy, as the US press keeps repeating - unless democracy means you toss opposition politiicians into the slammer and close down thier newspapers.

That is all true.

The problem is that in response to Georgia's unruly actions towards their separatist region the Russians invaded Georgia with a large scale campaign and apparently do not want to leave regardless to the agreement they signed that EU has brokered between them and Georgia.

[pavyracer]

I see a double standard here. Serbia invades Kossovo province because they want independence from Serbia and we go to war against them. Georgia invades South Ossetia province who wants to be independent and we endorse it?

[Data]

I see a double standard here. Serbia invades Kossovo province because they want independence from Serbia and we go to war against them. Georgia invades South Ossetia province who wants to be independent and we endorse it?

There is a difference. There was a genocide taking place in Kosovo and it was stopped. The stupid Georgia's attack was like a Christmas present for Russia. Putin immediately cried "It is genocide!" but that was a blatant lie of course that they used as an excuse for invasion.

[pavyracer]

There is a difference. There was a genocide taking place in Kosovo and it was stopped. The stupid Georgia's attack was like a Christmas present for Russia. Putin immediately cried "It is genocide!" but that was a blatant lie of course that they used as an excuse for invasion.

The Albanians killing the ethnic Serbs of Kossovo was a genocide too. We didn't stop that one too. The Western press only reports selectively. Russia has every right to defend it's Southern flank from western backed agression from Georgia. Russia will not tolerate any of the countries that border it to install NATO missile launchers aimed at Russia. This is unacceptable!

[ritehook]

The Albanians killing the ethnic Serbs of Kossovo was a genocide too. We didn't stop that one too. The Western press only reports selectively. Russia has every right to defend it's Southern flank from western backed agression from Georgia. Russia will not tolerate any of the countries that border it to install NATO missile launchers aimed at Russia. This is unacceptable!

Right on the mark.

I can enjoy the summer, and get ready for foots (lot of fukkin work) while PR is on the politcal front.

Has an incisive way of thinking that I respect. Not as strong as moi on issues like the world rule of the corporate entities or the arrogance of the Hotel Lobby, but on Reaklpolitik free of moralic acid (understands how healthy nations think) --- shoot, I'll just sit back and watch.

Except for a few slings and arrows . . .

[reno cool]

where is Kosovo in relation to the US.
where is S. Ossetia in relation to Russia.--not to mention populated by Russians.
only one of these actions is remotely justified. And its not the American one.

In fact US involvement in Serbia is one of many moves to fragment historical Russian allies, weaken and encircle Russia itself. US foreign policy has nothing against genocide. They are promoters of it.

[reno cool]

I doubt the US will do more than make angry noises at Russia. Perhaps the episode will make Washington rethink the wisdom of taking unstable and adventurous states into NAtO.

And of entering any more Blowback scenarios like the Iraq nonsense - which will sourly reverberate for decades in the U
S and elswwhere. Think that the Georgian warlords aren't sorely pissed over what they must think is the US punking out on them in the conflict with Russia --- after they sent all those troops to Iraq in the "war against terror."

Many sports fans want to see one huge event before they die - be it the Super Bowl, the Final Four, the World Cup, whatever.

I want to see the trial and execution of the Neos who got us into this echoing and never-ending madness. Front row seat, hot dogs, popcorn and beer at hand. "Take me out to the hangings, Take me out with the crowd . . . ."

I would not want to underestimate the self-righteous insanity of the US leadership. I don't know if any of them fear world destruction. I think they're perfectly happy to put everyone's lives at risk for nothing.
Whats PR, and what do they really think? The public has to guess. I mean they didn't really believe all those things about Saddam--- weapons, terrorists, threat to US security.---- that was just PR right? or are they really believing their own lies now?

[pavyracer]

Now I'm all confused. What's PR again?

[reno cool]

one more thing.

when the Western Press was finally forced to admit that Georgia attacked first the wording they used was:
"Russia attacked after Georgia "moved against separatist rebels". As if there was a couple of hooligans running around over there. As opposed to shelling a city in the middle of the night.

[reno cool]

Now I'm all confused. What's PR again?

public relations or propaganda. if your serious

[pavyracer]

public relations or propaganda. if your serious

never mind. i thought it was me.

[Data]

The Albanians killing the ethnic Serbs of Kossovo was a genocide too. We didn't stop that one too.

So, do you or do you not want to be a world police?

The Western press only reports selectively.

Sure, and all they post must be approved by CIA.

Russia has every right to defend it's Southern flank from western backed agression from Georgia.

What? Again, they were doing something stupid on their own territory. The civilians moved out of that region days in advance. Then, Russia moved in and then advanced much farther into Georgian territory bombing objects all over Georgia, and then they refused to leave.

Russia will not tolerate any of the countries that border it to install NATO missile launchers aimed at Russia. This is unacceptable!

What? What countries are you talking about? This is just another BS.

[pavyracer]

So, do you or do you not want to be a world police?



Sure, and all they post must be approved by CIA.



What? Again, they were doing something stupid on their own territory. The civilians moved out of that region days in advance. Then, Russia moved in and then advanced much farther into Georgian territory bombing objects all over Georgia, and then they refused to leave.



What? What countries are you talking about? This is just another BS.

Georgia attacked unprovoked South Ossetia resistance forces. Russia moved in swiftly and pushed them backed to Georgian territory and proceeded to destroy the Georgia's forces supply depots, command centers and infracture to prevent similar aggression by Georgia in the future.

Similar moves are planned in Poland if they dare to build missile launchers aimed at Russia. Russia will not tolerate missile launchers within striking distance of its territory. I don't know how else can I make you understand that Putin and Medvevev mean business. Any nation that shows agression against Russia will be punished with lightning speed.

[Data]

Guys, get your facts straight. You do not know what are you talking about. Saakashvili is not a Slavic name. The SO's population is not Russian.

I myself is not Bush's fan, not at all. The problem with you guys is that you think that since those folks hate Bush just as you do they must be good. The enemy of your enemy is NOT necessarily your friend. You must understand that people living under propagandists regimes such as Iran, Russia, Hamas, those people hate us. They are the people who were dancing on the streets and cheering when the WTC went down and that makes them our enemies, in my view. If you want to side with our enemies then that this makes you you know what. So, again, hating Bush is NOT the reason to support our enemies.

Note, if you hate the US, not just Bush, then this message was not intended for you.

PS. Pavyracer, Poland does not border Russia.

[pavyracer]

Where did I say in my post that it does? I said missile launchers within striking distance of Russian territory. There is a military plan to attack these missile launchers once they are deployed in Poland. Think of what Israel did to Iraq and Syria once they decided to develop nukes. The Russian Army is thinking one step ahead of western commanders and that is why is superior.

South Ossetia is an intergral part of Russia and will not be allowed to be under Georgian control after the unprovoked attack by Georgia on its capital and the killing of thousands of unarmed civilian South Ossetians.

[TeamPlayer]

Cartoon of the Day

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_columns_100006_14/08/2008_99524

[TeamPlayer]

pavyracer,

I agree with you that the U.S. provoked russia into invading Georgia and it's stupid for Bush to expand NATO to include countries like Ukraine which have a majority ethnic Russian population! It is a worse provocation than if Russia were to make military alliance with Mexico and Canada! You see, the teenage kids posting messages here don't know that Russians are the majority of the population in neighboring countries like Ukraine.

BUT, BUT! Don't write this crap about the Russian army being "superior" to western commanders and Western armies! If Russian army is so superior, then why is the United States and NATO invading the world while your Russian army is helpless to do anything about it! Of course, the answer is because the Russian army is weak and the U.S. could crush the Russian army any day

Furthermore, we can go back in time and see that the U.S. saved the Soviet army by sending them food, clothes and weapons during WWII. The Soviets would have been conquered by the Germans without U.S. aid.

[ritehook]

Nonsense. You cannot invade your own country. SO has been in fight for independence but it is still a part of Georgia.



A lot? Do you now how many? The Russians say 13, they are also known to unleash a soviet style propaganda during this war and were caught reporting civilian casualties that were exceeding the real ones in two orders of magnitude.



The border? What border? Another nonsense.



That is all true.

The problem is that in response to Georgia's unruly actions towards their separatist region the Russians invaded Georgia with a large scale campaign and apparently do not want to leave regardless to the agreement they signed that EU has brokered between them and Georgia.

data, I know you are bright - one can usually divine that type thing by manner of expression - but you are also very cryptic. Like a while back saying that Apple makes a good machine but it's not a computer! (huh?) And critiquing all of them but not naming the one you thought best.

Ok, S. Ossetia has been a very autonomous part of Georgia, but as Geogia was long a part of Russia (Soviet Union) it's different scenario. IE, Gerogia not only saw no problem in breaking away in times of dissolution, but also wants to be a protectorate of Imperial America.

Even Stalin, a Georgian, granted a large measure of autonomy to the Ossetians (many of whom have been forced to re-locate to North Ossetia, their kinsmen).

If breakaway due to ethnic, nationalist and political reasons was good for Georgia, it's good for S. Ossetia.

The dictatorial president of Georgia did not want to grant autonomy to S. Ossetia; he wished to absorb it totally into the Georgian quagmire (drug smuggling, white slave center, all that nice stuff)

The US bombed Serbia to force it to unloose its grip on Kosovo. Altho Serbia has a far more legtimate historical claim to Kosovo than the US does to the American Southwest (stolen from Mexico 170 years ago, at gunpoint. I predict a viable revanchist movement in California, Arizona etc within 20 years, with the activists citing the US support of breakaway Kosovo as their justification.)

Empire, when combined with "democratic" ideology, makes a nation look like a fool or a pathological liar. Consider that a major US presidential candidate (who daily confers and cries with the Geogian dictator) the other day actually said this: "One country just does not invade another in this century."

I mean, this is so bizarre as to headline the tragicomic circuit. A senile senior citizen one election away from leading the "Free World." How far we've declined from JQ Adams, Jefferson, Madison . . .


"A lot." Yeah, 13 is a lot. These Russian soldier were not invaders. They'd been there for years, to keep peace on the border of S. Ossetia. Which is at least as real as the border between Serbia and Kosovo.

The Red Cross has also stated that the Geogian troops were killing people indiscrimately, civilians mostly.

[ritehook]

where is Kosovo in relation to the US.
where is S. Ossetia in relation to Russia.--not to mention populated by Russians.
only one of these actions is remotely justified. And its not the American one.

In fact US involvement in Serbia is one of many moves to fragment historical Russian allies, weaken and encircle Russia itself. US foreign policy has nothing against genocide. They are promoters of it.

On target, RC

[pavyracer]

Very nice posts by TeamPlayer and ritehook. I don't like being the only Russian in this forum

I am glad other Russians have joined the realpolitik?? (is that how you spell it ritehook?)

[ritehook]

I would not want to underestimate the self-righteous insanity of the US leadership. I don't know if any of them fear world destruction. I think they're perfectly happy to put everyone's lives at risk for nothing.
Whats PR, and what do they really think? The public has to guess. I mean they didn't really believe all those things about Saddam--- weapons, terrorists, threat to US security.---- that was just PR right? or are they really believing their own lies now?

PR = pavyracer

Won't agree with him 100%, but he knows military and knows polit reality. Too many commentators confuse ideology with facts on the ground.

Which gives us such bizarre spectacles like so-called "conservatives" condemning illegal immigration but praising global capitalism. Who the fuk do they think is behind the "free movement of labor" in the world, esp from the Southern Hemispere into the Northern one?

This is the time bomb that will one day wreak more destruction to the world that 10,000 bin Ladens. Why? Well, let me put it this way: if you have ten chickens and roosters and get hungry and kill them all ---- the next time you get hungry you can eat dirt.

[pavyracer]

pavyracer,

I agree with you that the U.S. provoked russia into invading Georgia and it's stupid for Bush to expand NATO to include countries like Ukraine which have a majority ethnic Russian population! It is a worse provocation than if Russia were to make military alliance with Mexico and Canada! You see, the teenage kids posting messages here don't know that Russians are the majority of the population in neighboring countries like Ukraine.

BUT, BUT! Don't write this crap about the Russian army being "superior" to western commanders and Western armies! If Russian army is so superior, then why is the United States and NATO invading the world while your Russian army is helpless to do anything about it! Of course, the answer is because the Russian army is weak and the U.S. could crush the Russian army any day

Furthermore, we can go back in time and see that the U.S. saved the Soviet army by sending them food, clothes and weapons during WWII. The Soviets would have been conquered by the Germans without U.S. aid.

20,000,000 million dead Russians fighting the Nazi's is what defeated them not the US aid. Blood is more valuable in war than food. In the only confrontrations in world history between Russian and US troops no country defeated the other both in Korean War and Vietnam War. Which war are you referring to that the Russians lost to US?

[ritehook]

They are the people who were dancing on the streets and cheering when the WTC went down and that makes them our enemies, in my view. If you want to side with our enemies then that this makes you you know what. So, again, hating Bush is NOT the reason to support our enemies.

That's propaganda, data. There were a small handful of Palestinians who celebrated 911 (after being shelled constantly by the IDF). But most of the Islamic world did not celebrate.

And in fact, in some Muslim lands, the sympathy was strong. There were large candlelight vigils in Iran and other lands int he wake of 911. The US had the sympathy of much of the world then, and could have used it to advantage. Instead, they dusted off a 7 year old scheme from a handful of ethnic-centered neocons to invade Iraq and depose Saddam, as a first step toward massive "regime-change" in the Middle East.

BTW, I understand other cultures (and speak and read some Spanish) but as I was born, bred and raised in the USA I adhere to an "America First" agenda. It is what it is.

I can tell by your writing that while you are a smart guy, English is not your primary langauge. May I ask what country you are from, originally or still? I confessed my parochial pro-America bias. What's yours?

[ritehook]

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w.../08/2008_99524

Funny cartoon. I'm sure it did not appear in the American media

[TeamPlayer]

20,000,000 million dead Russians fighting the Nazi's is what defeated them not the US aid. Blood is more valuable in war than food. In the only confrontrations in world history between Russian and US troops no country defeated the other both in Korean War and Vietnam War. Which war are you referring to that the Russians lost to US?

But why did so many Russians die?

The answer is because Stalin murdered his top military commanders because he percieved anybody with a brain as a threat to himself. So he sent the Russian people to fight the Germans without proper equipment, clothing, food and training.

You can be as brave as you want but you still need minimal food and equipment to win a war. Look at Poland fighting the Nazis. They were as brave as anybody fighting with horses against tanks and bullets but they were still conquered. So, yes, the Russians fight tough, but they're still only human beings and needed food and military aid from the United States to turn back the Nazis.

Remember, the United States won the war Not because we are any braver than anybody else but because our industrial output (ability to make weapons) was superior to the Germans and anybody else.

p.s. I'm american but with an international background including one Ukrainian grandfather who died in Soviet prison camp in Vorkuta, Siberia. I also don't agree that it's acceptable for russia to invade Georgia. Basically, all sides are at fault and this whole situation is only a repitition of history in which the great powers of the world fight over the smaller countries who always get phucked! In this case, it is Ukraine, Georgia, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia etc who are caught in the middle of this senseless power struggle