BetOnStars.com ensnared me !!!

**Emmdoubleu** · 09-12-05, 09:05 PM

My opinion is that the book handled this properly. We can't demand integrity from our books and not give them the same in return. I don't see what leg you have to stand on.

**Terris** · 09-12-05, 09:21 PM

So its fraud if they post a bad line or time, and someone bets it maybe even without seeing that? A 20$ bet a welcome excuse for them to steal the rest of the winnings?
F- and bye...

**Emmdoubleu** · 09-12-05, 09:23 PM

No, it is fraud if the individual bets the line knowing the error and attempts to take advantage of it, and admits as much...

**Terris** · 09-12-05, 09:26 PM

its TWENTY DOLLARS he did bet. With having 2500 or so in his account.
So, its OK to take away 2500 for a 20$ bet? Horseshit...
And besides that, its still the BOOK that is responsible for the stuff it posts.
A good bookie would have maybe cancelled the bet and closed the account, but ROGUES take the chance and take all the winnings away. I really dont accept any excuses for this, that bookie would be on my blacklist for all time now.

**Betonstar-ensnare-me** · 09-12-05, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by Emmdoubleu

No, it is fraud if the individual bets the line knowing the error and attempts to take advantage of it, and admits as much...

I think they don't state that.They only know when the bet made and how is the balance ? Too many or least !

**Emmdoubleu** · 09-12-05, 09:31 PM

Who bets on a game that they knowingly know is over? Not sure how that can be defended in anyway. The book is not out of line as the player didn't deposit a nickel in the book. That is the key to me, I don't think the book could have taken funds deposited, but funds earned on a free account is a different story to me. The book put there best foot forward with the free account. If you expect books to operate with integrity, we owe them the same.

**Betonstar-ensnare-me** · 09-12-05, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by Terris

its TWENTY DOLLARS he did bet. With having 2500 or so in his account.
So, its OK to take away 2500 for a 20$ bet? Horseshit...
And besides that, its still the BOOK that is responsible for the stuff it posts.
A good bookie would have maybe cancelled the bet and closed the account, but ROGUES take the chance and take all the winnings away. I really dont accept any excuses for this, that bookie would be on my blacklist for all time now.

Maybe they didn't close my account if I didn't state about withdrawal in 1st chat transcript.After then they DON'T WANT PAY ME on Sept 19th and deciede closing my account !

**Emmdoubleu** · 09-12-05, 09:33 PM

You admited you recognized the error in your email.

**Emmdoubleu** · 09-12-05, 09:34 PM

Quite frankly I wouldn't pay you either. YOu earned the money on a free account and tried to take advantage of the situation.

**Terris** · 09-12-05, 09:35 PM

yaya...i just wonder how many accounts have been closed after this little mistake. Maybe it was a trap, and they took away all the money from all accounts that accidently (or knowing it) placed a bet on this game? Thats how rogues make their money after all, they use traps...very valuable mistake.

**Emmdoubleu** · 09-12-05, 09:36 PM

Sorry for my ignorance..what is rogues

**THESCOUT** · 09-12-05, 09:37 PM

Stick with the best books, a oainful lession, dont mess with books when they are holding your cash

**Betonstar-ensnare-me** · 09-12-05, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by Emmdoubleu

You admited you recognized the error in your email.

I didn't get it in my email.Also I said that clearly I didn't expect that I made money from that problem,it is only fun and I guessed it will be cancelled,same as the situation of Wagerweb and also Dimebetting before.

**Terris** · 09-12-05, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by Emmdoubleu

Sorry for my ignorance..what is rogues

lol...people who steal? you want to tell me you dont know the word rogue, but you think the bookie did the correct thing? :+blobs-1+

**Emmdoubleu** · 09-12-05, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by Terris

lol...people who steal? you want to tell me you dont know the word rogue, but you think the bookie did the correct thing?

I guess that is correct, just think there is a standard as a player and book we should hold ourselves accountable to.

**Brick Tamland** · 09-12-05, 10:26 PM

Im going to need some cliff notes...That shit is way too long for me to read about a book I have never heard of and will never send $ to.

**Senator7** · 09-13-05, 01:16 AM

So let me get this straight. You tried to screw the sportsbook and failed. Now, you're pissed because they screwed you and succeeded. No offense, but that's kinda hypocritical. I don't agree with them wiping out your bankroll. It seems that they could have found a fairer or more middle of the road solution. Both you and the book are at fault here.

Senator 7

**Betonstar-ensnare-me** · 09-13-05, 02:40 AM

Yes,I made the fault but if I want to try to take advantage of this problem,I didn't bet with only $20.
I met this problem with Wagerweb and Dimebetting before but they only noticed me that they cancelled my bets and they didn't close my accounts.
My fault is not too big to close my account and steal all of my money that I made before.

**Bill Dozer** · 09-13-05, 04:33 AM

You are not going to get much sympathy from people in the forums because players see shot-takers as people who ruin it for everyone else.

However, based on your chat, the book's punishment does not fit the crime. You should not lose $2500 over a $20 past-post. If this was accepted, the book could hang these lines all night and win balances of big account holders who found themselves guilty of past-posting. BetonStars would be accused of entrapment.

I am sure that betonstars is getting torched by this promo as these free money accounts rarely prove to be a good investment, especially those that are this large. But, the fact that this balance was earned from bonus money carries little weight, especially when you were 5 days away from owning the money free and clear. These wagers could have been placed elsewhere.

If you were guilty of accounting or identity fraud you should have to forfeit your winnings but a subjective wagering violation should not be reason to confiscate player balances.

Please send your account ID and full name to assistance@sportsbookreview.com so that we may contact management on your behalf.

BTW, for anyone else who wondered what the hell "ensnared" means....

en·snare ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-snâr) also in·snare (n-) tr.v. en·snared, en·snar·ing, en·snares
To take or catch in or as if in a snare. See Synonyms at catch.

**Emmdoubleu** · 09-13-05, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by Bill Dozer

You are not going to get much sympathy from people in the forums because players see shot-takers as people who ruin it for everyone else.

However, based on your chat, the book's punishment does not fit the crime. You should not lose $2500 over a $20 past-post. If this was accepted, the book could hang these lines all night and win balances of big account holders who found themselves guilty of past-posting. BetonStars would be accused of entrapment.

I am sure that betonstars is getting torched by this promo as these free money accounts rarely prove to be a good investment, especially those that are this large. But, the fact that this balance was earned from bonus money carries little weight, especially when you were 5 days away from owning the money free and clear. These wagers could have been placed elsewhere.

If you were guilty of accounting or identity fraud you should have to forfeit your winnings but a subjective wagering violation should not be reason to confiscate player balances.

Please send your account ID and full name to assistance@sportsbookreview.com so that we may contact management on your behalf.

BTW, for anyone else who wondered what the hell "ensnared" means....

en·snare ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-snâr) also in·snare (n-) tr.v. en·snared, en·snar·ing, en·snares
To take or catch in or as if in a snare. See Synonyms at catch.

I agree that the punishment seems a little aggressive, but why would this site spend time defending someone who has not only admitted to this instance, but several other instances with several other books.

**noyb** · 09-13-05, 08:41 AM

I really do not believe what i am reading in this topic (as a regular reader of this forum it even got me to register and post my first post). If I understand this correctly, this guy makes a 20$ bet on a match that has already finished, and the bookmaker decides to confiscate more then 2k in winning, without even a shred of proof of this player doing this on purpose (even though he kind of admits that here, he, as far as i can tell, has not admitted this to management of this book).

I really see absolutely no justification for this kind of action by the book. Voiding the bet, ofcourse, but more then that is completely ridiculous in my opinion.

I remember betting on Ancic at Vwager while the match (apparently, i didn't know the time they indicated was not the actual time) had already begun for 30 minutes. I got a message, my bet was voided, and that was it. As it should be...

I'm glad SBR is looking into this, and again must admit I am totally astonished by the reaction of some of the posters here, who usually have such a clear opinion about bad bookies and now just let this one go (also, in my opinion, whether it's an account funded by an actual deposit or by a promo is not relevant at all; if betonstars didn't want people winning money with their free cash-promo, they shouldn't have started it in the first place).

**Emmdoubleu** · 09-13-05, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by noyb

I really do not believe what i am reading in this topic (as a regular reader of this forum it even got me to register and post my first post). If I understand this correctly, this guy makes a 20$ bet on a match that has already finished, and the bookmaker decides to confiscate more then 2k in winning, without even a shred of proof of this player doing this on purpose (even though he kind of admits that here, he, as far as i can tell, has not admitted this to management of this book).

I really see absolutely no justification for this kind of action by the book. Voiding the bet, ofcourse, but more then that is completely ridiculous in my opinion.

I remember betting on Ancic at Vwager while the match (apparently, i didn't know the time they indicated was not the actual time) had already begun for 30 minutes. I got a message, my bet was voided, and that was it. As it should be...

I'm glad SBR is looking into this, and again must admit I am totally astonished by the reaction of some of the posters here, who usually have such a clear opinion about bad bookies and now just let this one go (also, in my opinion, whether it's an account funded by an actual deposit or by a promo is not relevant at all; if betonstars didn't want people winning money with their free cash-promo, they shouldn't have started it in the first place).

I would completely agree the player deserves the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this, but the player admitted to intentionally posting after the completion of the game and has admitted to intentionally doing it on several other occasions. How do you defend a person in that situation. He didn't miss the game by 30 minutes or an hour, it was 12 hours and an obviously not an innocent error as admitted himself.

**Addict** · 09-13-05, 10:06 AM

I simply can't ignore the fact that this guy Emmdoubleu has posted 95% of his total posts on topics related to betonstars.
And the same percent of his posts are 5% about "info needed about betonstars, a classic line of spammers (something like: do u know about this site? Is it good? I've heard it is)" and the other 95% are defending this unknown bookie, that he considers to be right deciding to held all customer's funds , claiming an abuse of the customer, that was in fact a clear case of bookmaker's linesmaker error. If someone is to be held resposable, then that's the linesmaker and the manager, who allowed such a thing to happen. This is a simple case of palpable error, where the bet it's simply voided and wagers are restored in customer's account. NO MORE, NO LESS.
Why this thing happend with less then a week before a withdrawal from customer account was possible? Have experienced such things with gamebookers and bet365, where bets were left still open although the match was already ended. Any bets taken after official start time were deemed voided and wagers back in client's accounts. THIS IS WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN HERE TOO.

If not, there is only one conclusion and that is: ROGUE BOOKMAKER (they have no intention of paying customer's fair winnings).
And someone mentioned it was a free bonus: does it matter? We are talking here about a bookmaker who's trying to establish a good position and trying to have a good image. Well, they've just put themselves on ROGUE LIST. That's the only conclusion for me.

And Emmdoubleu, don't bother respond, as in my opinion u clearly are related to this crooks.

I would even ask the bettingadvice crew to check ip's for Jay88 and you, Emmdoubleu, I'm currious if they find same ip.

**fixxer** · 09-13-05, 10:28 AM

Hi!

I don't think that Jay88 and Emmdobleu are the same, Jay seemed to be a correct and fair representative for me. Also, I don't think that betonstars is fully a rogue bookmaker. They did pay out many bettors (If what they wrote in the forum is true?!), BUT this matter means we can't trust them. I don't know if a manager made a wrong decision, or they realised how much will they lose if they offer such a generous bonus, and they are trying to avoid all withdraws as they can....we will see....still, I don't think they are a rogue bookie, but.....as I said, we will see.

About the matter. As Bill Dozer said: "the book's punishment does not fit the crime", which is damm true. If somebody wants to cheat intentionally, he bets more than 20 USD if he has a few thousands in his account....that's sure. BUT if he made this bet intentionally, in this case, the "the book's punishment does not fit the crime".

Nearly everyone tries to bet if he realises, that a bookie made a mistake. Nearly everyone tries to get money from it, because it's the bookies fault. Bookies knows this, and if they find out this, they void the bet. Not delete or block accounts (in this case they should block more than half of their customers)....and obviusly not steal their money. If a bookie offers a bonus, they can't say after it, it's JUST bonus money....if they made terms about it (rollover, time to remain in account etc....), and gave it to the customer, it's weights just as the deposited money, so this is not a reason....

I hope you will get your money back, tho I think you have a very little chance...maybe with Mr. Dozer's help....

**Emmdoubleu** · 09-13-05, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by fixxer

Hi!

I don't think that Jay88 and Emmdobleu are the same, Jay seemed to be a correct and fair representative for me. Also, I don't think that betonstars is fully a rogue bookmaker. They did pay out many bettors (If what they wrote in the forum is true?!), BUT this matter means we can't trust them. I don't know if a manager made a wrong decision, or they realised how much will they lose if they offer such a generous bonus, and they are trying to avoid all withdraws as they can....we will see....still, I don't think they are a rogue bookie, but.....as I said, we will see.

About the matter. As Bill Dozer said: "the book's punishment does not fit the crime", which is damm true. If somebody wants to cheat intentionally, he bets more than 20 USD if he has a few thousands in his account....that's sure. BUT if he made this bet intentionally, in this case, the "the book's punishment does not fit the crime".

Nearly everyone tries to bet if he realises, that a bookie made a mistake. Nearly everyone tries to get money from it, because it's the bookies fault. Bookies knows this, and if they find out this, they void the bet. Not delete or block accounts (in this case they should block more than half of their customers)....and obviusly not steal their money. If a bookie offers a bonus, they can't say after it, it's JUST bonus money....if they made terms about it (rollover, time to remain in account etc....), and gave it to the customer, it's weights just as the deposited money, so this is not a reason....

I hope you will get your money back, tho I think you have a very little chance...maybe with Mr. Dozer's help....

The reason such a high% of my posts are related to this book is due tothe fact that Scotty Johnson from my current book Betjamaica referred me to SBR a week ago. As I have stated in other posts, I was a Royal customer for over 10+ years, but have found a home back with Scotty. I think you all know how solid he is and I am confident he will vouch for me (Scotty this is RP)that I have no afiiliation with any book. I am simply a player, a high stakes, really bad player, but that is it. I did recieve a cold call and free account from Betonstars and had an overall positive experience there, but the reason for the posts is I cannot believe the majority of players are behind someone who has an admitted pattern like this.

I admit the book went too far,but let's not defend a cheater. If a book cheats we are up in arms, but if a player cheats you are running to his defense?

**fixxer** · 09-13-05, 11:06 AM

"If a book cheats weareup in arms, but if a player cheats you are running to his defense?"

This is because what the bookie did, is far more greater cheat, than what the player did.

+this could happen to all bettors who bet with them. That's all....they stole a big money from him....

**Emmdoubleu** · 09-13-05, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by fixxer

"If a book cheats weareup in arms, but if a player cheats you are running to his defense?"

This is because what the bookie did, is far more greater cheat, than what the player did.

+this could happen to all bettors who bet with them. That's all....they stole a big money from him....

I agree that punishment was excessive, but don't blame the book for closing the account. There probably should be a more equitable solution. I think the book came down so hard because this was an obvious attempt. I disagree that this could happen to anyone. I believe if the past post was an hour, the book would have been more reasonable. Most of us are not going to post 12 hours after the game. Who knows what else lead to the book having a short leash on this player.

**fixxer** · 09-13-05, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by Emmdoubleu

I agree that punishment was excessive, but don't blame the book for closing the account. There probably should be a more equitable solution. I think the book came down so hard because this was an obvious attempt. I disagree that this could happen to anyone. I believe if the past post was an hour, the book would have been more reasonable. Most of us are not going to post 12 hours after the game. Who knows what else lead to the book having a short leash on this player.

I never heard that a bookie closed account for making a bet after starting time.
Sometimes I made incidently bets after starting time, and 1-2 times intentionally, and I think that nearly all bettors tries to get money from the bookies mistakes.

But the bookies' answer is allways that they void the bet, because they correct THEIR FAULT with this.
If he would really wanted to cheat, than he bet his full balance on this bet, not 20 (!!!!) USD.....C'mon, seriously, if you really want to cheat, you risk 4.000 for heavy 20 USD-s?????? This wasn't a cheat, just a mistake.....this is something like if a cop shoots a drunk in the head, because he is singing too loud on the street after 22:00.....

"I think the book came down so hard because this was an obvious attempt."

I totally disagree. The bookie clearly did this because he won a lot of money from the bonus, and he was before withdrawal, this is clearly obvious....

**Emmdoubleu** · 09-13-05, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by fixxer

I never heard that a bookie closed account for making a bet after starting time.
Sometimes I made incidently bets after starting time, and 1-2 times intentionally, and I think that nearly all bettors tries to get money from the bookies mistakes.

But the bookies' answer is allways that they void the bet, because they correct THEIR FAULT with this.
If he would really wanted to cheat, than he bet his full balance on this bet, not 20 (!!!!) USD.....C'mon, seriously, if you really want to cheat, you risk 4.000 for heavy 20 USD-s?????? This wasn't a cheat, just a mistake.....this is something like if a cop shoots a drunk in the head, because he is singing too loud on the street after 22:00.....

"I think the book came down so hard because this was an obvious attempt."

I totally disagree. The bookie clearly did this because he won a lot of money from the bonus, and he was before withdrawal, this is clearly obvious....

I can't say that the size of the balance had nothing to do with it...it very well may have...I am going to shut up about this topic before you melt down on me again:reallyhap At least I got my first smily face post under my belt.

**hoppa_long** · 09-13-05, 11:50 AM

So anytime this book wants somebodys money all they have to do is put wrong post times? Thats unfair because they could target who ever they want to...I think taking all of his money is wrong...That happen to me with williamhill once and all they did was cancel and refund...All I could say is stick with the top 5 books

**Addict** · 09-13-05, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by Jay88 at bettingadvice

I understand I'm from betonstars.com so things I might say most people wont believe them.

I would like to explain the situation and I would more than happy to post his plays here so you guys can see exactly what he was doing.
We had several accounts that played those games and all of them were put on hold, the ones that were a simple straight bet were reopened and the bets were cancelled.

Mr. Duyen decided to play a 7 teams parlay to win $4,565!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!...
All the teams in the parlay where from games that were already over. Now this customer is trying to tell us that he wasn't trying to cheat and this was a mistake. I don't know about you. But If you invite somebody to your house to dinner and when you go to the kitchen he is trying to steel from your wallet, I don't think that anybody would be happy and would allow him to finish his dinner.
There is no way in this earth that he made a 7 teams parlay mistake and like it is stated in several rules in the website we don't allow cheaters.... and cheating in our company means refund of the deposit and lost of all winnings from the bonus. Remember that Mr. Duyen has been playing all this time with a $50 bonus.
Now if somebody that is playing for free and is given a chance to test us and to win money "legally" and following the rules, like multiple person from this forum have, and this specific customers tries to STEAL from you what would you do.
All the customers that had a straight wager on one of those games and prooved to us that it was a mistake, we cancelled the bet and reopened their account.... Tell me how do you make a 7 teams parlay mistake???
If anybody in here can tell me and proove to me that Mr. Duyen wasn't trying to cheat us I'll make everything in my power to reopen his account.

It was our mistake to leave the games open but this doesn't means that anybody has the right of cheating us.

By the way we just talked to bill dozer from sportsbook review, and the same way he protects palyers from scam books he will also protect honest sportsbooks from scam players.... Go ahead and write to him... You'll se what he has to tell you. I'll be here all day long for whatever you guys have to say.

:surprised

**hoppa_long** · 09-13-05, 12:27 PM

He was clearly trying to defraud in this case ....The way he made to be was different from what you are saying..Thought it was a $20 bet on a soccer game..

**Bill Dozer** · 09-13-05, 12:35 PM

Dave, BetonStars's GM, had just phoned to give his version of what took place. He stated that the player failed to mention that the wager was a 7-team parlay to win $4,500 and that this was a much more obvious attempt to cheat the sportsbook. The wagers were on an obscure soccer league.

He made the point that his rules about defrauding the sportsbook are now more relevant and that this was much more than a player testing the system. If the player had waited 5 days for the roll-over requirement to finish before past-posting I may have maintained my previous stance and David says he would have agreed.

Since the player was still within his 1 month requirement the book feels this type of cheating is grounds for dismissing his bonus and winnings from that bonus.

I suggested that the sportsbook consider sending the $2500 to the Red Cross Katrina Relief Fund and David intends to do so.

Unless BEM has anything to add or dispute I would consider this issue closed.

**marc** · 09-13-05, 01:12 PM

Bookmakers make mistakes. When a player sees an obvious error, there are only 2 things the player should do. The player, should either ignore that game, or even better, the player should contact the book and make them aware of the error. But when you bet into an obvious bad line, you hvae no one to blame but yourself. You can't blame the book over the fact that you past posted. You can't blame the book oer the fact that you bet into a bad line. This is like the guy that steals a car, beacuse the door was unlocked, and the keys in the iginition.

If I didn't know about the 7-team parlay, I would say keeping the full 2500 might be a bit excessive, but I think simply closing the account, and refunding the balnce while the easist chocie, would be too lenient. I think a book should have the right to impose some type of penalty like $100 - $500.