Does anyone here believe in christ?

[chilidog]

Claim God does not exist demand proof that you are wrong.... no difference in what you claim against believers.... everyone believe what you want. Only sick people go out of their way to berate people of faith. Although we were all created equal in the image of our maker you all managed to deviate to a lower form of being. Where did the stars and elements come from pal? Even if you believe that is the origin of creation which it undoubtedly is not.... you can not answer that. The fact is that the people who try so hard to prove they are right are almost always those that are wrong. I have nothing to prove nor does any Christian. And you certainly can not prove your argument either. Our job is not to prove anything to anyone only to have faith and do our best to live right. Is it not the key tenant of Science and Math something does not "exist" until you can have a proof for it? So then how do all you science and math guys claim to know the answer when there is no proof one or the other? Believers do not need a proof because we know the truth. So until you quit being hypocrites and discrediting your arguments you should move on to another topic.

If christians have nothing to prove, then why are they always trying to convert me? Imagine the uproar if somebody went around trying to get people to worship satan.

[topgame85]

It's amusing to me how Christianity has had to revert to the edges of science. They used to claim to posses all worthwhile knowledge now they claim they have nothing to prove

There is no doubt corruption in the church just as in everything on the face of this planet. They did claim that you "needed" the church and to tithe and show up every Sunday etc. to be a good Christian. This is false. Many people do join the church for the wrong reasons and many people that rtun the church do it to make money. This says nothing about the religion in general only that people will try to take advantage of other people. The Bible clearly says we do not have to nor should we go out of our way to prove anything.

[Dr.Gonzo]

Christianity is a ridiculous concept and I will prove it with rationality. Christians assert everyone is inherently evil and need to accept the salvation of Jesus Christ or they will be sent to hell. Thus the judgement on whether one is permitted into heaven or sent to hell is irrational.

Since all human beings are inherently evil without salvation from Jesus then how can they be held responsible for their actions? They can't. So at the end of the day all this judgement is to ask one to accept that they are inherently evil, plead for forgiveness and accept Jesus as their savoir. If you are truly repentfull you are forgiven. That is the basis of Christianity. So all those murders on Death Row in the US who repent will be going to heaven. Why? Because that is the only hope they have so they truly believe it. Whilst Ghandi is going to hell to suffer for all of eternity because he didn't accept Jesus as his savoir.

It also seems to me God is very particular about where you were born. No one is Russian believes in God so they are all going to hell. The middle east believe in the wrong god so they are all going to hell. China doesn't believe in God so they're out. It seems to me where you are born has more to do with will you go to heaven then what you actually do with your life.

[topgame85]

Christianity is a ridiculous concept and I will prove it with rationality. Christians assert everyone is inherently evil and need to accept the salvation of Jesus Christ or they will be sent to hell. Thus the judgement on whether one is permitted into heaven or sent to hell is irrational.

Since all human beings are inherently evil without salvation from Jesus then how can they be held responsible for their actions? They can't. So at the end of the day all this judgement is to ask one to accept that they are inherently evil, plead for forgiveness and accept Jesus as their savoir. If you are truly repentfull you are forgiven. That is the basis of Christianity. So all those murders on Death Row in the US who repent will be going to heaven. Why? Because that is the only hope they have so they truly believe it. Whilst Ghandi is going to hell to suffer for all of eternity because he didn't accept Jesus as his savoir.

It also seems to me God is very particular about where you were born. No one is Russian believes in God so they are all going to hell. The middle east believe in the wrong god so they are all going to hell. China doesn't believe in God so they're out. It seems to me where you are born has more to do with will you go to heaven then what you actually do with your life.

Absolutely inaccurate.

[Dr.Gonzo]

Absolutely inaccurate.

Where?

[jarvol]

They are all dead. My God died on a cross and rose from the dead.

So......you believe in zombies. What about ghosts?

[topgame85]

Where?

Practically the entire statement, I do not deny certain extreme or corrupt sects do think and preach along these lines however that is not the general thought process behind christianity or free thinking christians.

[Dr.Gonzo]

Practically the entire statement, I do not deny certain extreme or corrupt sects do think and preach along these lines however that is not the general thought process behind christianity or free thinking christians.

Then they and you are not Christians.

In fact that is a great argument against Christianity. It is fundamentally so retarded that most people who consider themselves Christians couldn't even believe it.

[jarvol]

free thinking christians.

[topgame85]

Easy to try to pigeonhole all people of one religion into a straight belief, the Bible is open to interpretation and there are several seperate studies and practices of christianity. I guess all muslims are al-qaeda terrorists in your opinion? Every single Jew is a muslim hating zionist? No different than calling an el salvadorian a mexican or a brazilian a chilean, sure they are al hispanics but they are from different countries with different backgrounds and ways of looking at things. Basically you don't know about the religion, the sect of the religion, or religions as a whole to be involved in this conversation.

[MendozaLine]

Easy to try to pigeonhole all people of one religion into a straight belief, the Bible is open to interpretation and there are several seperate studies and practices of christianity. I guess all muslims are al-qaeda terrorists in your opinion? Every single Jew is a muslim hating zionist? No different than calling an el salvadorian a mexican or a brazilian a chilean, sure they are al hispanics but they are from different countries with different backgrounds and ways of looking at things. Basically you don't know about the religion, the sect of the religion, or religions as a whole to be involved in this conversation.

[topgame85]

my mistake, forgot, Portugese decent? See, as evident it is that I should not be speaking of south american culture as Dr. should not be speaking on christianity

[ChileCheese]

If christians have nothing to prove, then why are they always trying to convert me? Imagine the uproar if somebody went around trying to get people to worship satan.

They are down in Chile trying to convert us as well Chili.

[Dr.Gonzo]

I'm not pigeonholing anyone as an individual I am pigeonholing the ideology. Even indoctrinated religious zealots usually have enough rationality to read what they consider to be the divine word of god and decide that they don't like that part so they will ignore or reinterpret it. That has nothing to do with religious dogma other than demonstrating how retarded it is.

[Dr.Gonzo]

I was raised as a Christian and went to Christan schools for 13 years. I have had many philosophical conversations with religious scholars and friends. I have read much of the text from the major religions. I have studied the ancient religions which Abrahamic regions drawn upon. I am more than qualified to enter this discussion on an internet forum.

[topgame85]

We clearly just have conflicting view on this part of the argument which can not be reconciled to discuss the topic any further. That is fine and I understand that some one who does not fully understand, respect, and live in the religion (although you apparently used to) to not get all the underlying meanings and truths. If there were no God and religion what part does any civility or control have in the world? If you believe there is no afterlife or God why have you not robbed and murdered scores of people by now? You really have nothing to lose right? Life is short and miserable if there is no afterlife then why do all the atheists around not go out and do whatever they want and hurt anyone in their way? That is the only logical course of action for anyone who truely believes in no chance of salvation...... selfish, glutony, violence and power because if as humans we are nothing more than advanced beasts why not act as such? Why would you spend your time "following the rules" of a religious world when you are so certain of the opposite?

[Dr.Gonzo]

So what are you suggesting is if you suddenly lose your faith you will have no morals? That is a rather inditing position to take and it says a lot about Christianity.

I have rational and don't need a book written thousands of years ago to teach me that murder is wrong. I believe in humanism and secular liberal democracy. I believe in a cultured humanity and science. I believe in truth.

[forum]

I believe, more
I BELIEVE!!

[jarvol]

We clearly just have conflicting view on this part of the argument which can not be reconciled to discuss the topic any further. That is fine and I understand that some one who does not fully understand, respect, and live in the religion (although you apparently used to) to not get all the underlying meanings and truths. If there were no God and religion what part does any civility or control have in the world? If you believe there is no afterlife or God why have you not robbed and murdered scores of people by now? You really have nothing to lose right? Life is short and miserable if there is no afterlife then why do all the atheists around not go out and do whatever they want and hurt anyone in their way? That is the only logical course of action for anyone who truely believes in no chance of salvation...... selfish, glutony, violence and power because if as humans we are nothing more than advanced beasts why not act as such? Why would you spend your time "following the rules" of a religious world when you are so certain of the opposite?

W-O-W.....so you are equating lack of religion to a lack of morals and a desire to harm other equals in our same species...........W-O-W.

[Dr.Gonzo]

Prime example.

The pope is condemning contraceptive usage in Africa and is thus responsible for more deaths than Hitler and Stalin combined whilst secular NGO's, the UN and the scientific and international community try and work on a cure for the future and prevention for the present.

[topgame85]

I am questioning why a "rational" non-believer would believe anything other than this..... If the human race is not by design and is merely some offshoot of chance and science then humans should and reasonably would act as such, some do today regardless of the good book and GOD but assuming you were correct all would be justified in doing so no? Most animals rape, steal, and kill each other... if we are the same why act differently? My argument is we are not the the same we are by design, something more, those who do engage in that lifestyle repent and are saved or perish eternally.

[jarvol]

I am questioning why a "rational" non-believer would believe anything other than this..... If the human race is not by design and is merely some offshoot of chance and science then humans should and reasonably would act as such, some do today regardless of the good book and GOD but assuming you were correct all would be justified in doing so no? Most animals rape, steal, and kill each other... if we are the same why act differently? My argument is we are not the the same we are by design, something more, those who do engage in that lifestyle repent and are saved or perish eternally.

Humans are the only species that kill for sport.

You will also find that many of these killers for sport will profess themselves as religious persons.

[Dr.Gonzo]

Christianity is a ridiculous concept and I will prove it with rationality. Christians assert everyone is inherently evil and need to accept the salvation of Jesus Christ or they will be sent to hell. Thus the judgement on whether one is permitted into heaven or sent to hell is irrational.

Since all human beings are inherently evil without salvation from Jesus then how can they be held responsible for their actions? They can't. So at the end of the day all this judgement is to ask one to accept that they are inherently evil, plead for forgiveness and accept Jesus as their savoir. If you are truly repentfull you are forgiven. That is the basis of Christianity. So all those murders on Death Row in the US who repent will be going to heaven. Why? Because that is the only hope they have so they truly believe it. Whilst Ghandi is going to hell to suffer for all of eternity because he didn't accept Jesus as his savoir.

It also seems to me God is very particular about where you were born. No one is Russian believes in God so they are all going to hell. The middle east believe in the wrong god so they are all going to hell. China doesn't believe in God so they're out. It seems to me where you are born has more to do with will you go to heaven then what you actually do with your life.

You called this post "absolutely incorrect". Please tell me where? I see you preaching the usual propaganda and hate that goes along with Christianity. Address the issue here.

[chilidog]

I am questioning why a "rational" non-believer would believe anything other than this..... If the human race is not by design and is merely some offshoot of chance and science then humans should and reasonably would act as such, some do today regardless of the good book and GOD but assuming you were correct all would be justified in doing so no? Most animals rape, steal, and kill each other... if we are the same why act differently? My argument is we are not the the same we are by design, something more, those who do engage in that lifestyle repent and are saved or perish eternally.

Humans are animals. Did you skip biology class?

[Dr.Gonzo]

I am questioning why a "rational" non-believer would believe anything other than this..... If the human race is not by design and is merely some offshoot of chance and science then humans should and reasonably would act as such, some do today regardless of the good book and GOD but assuming you were correct all would be justified in doing so no? Most animals rape, steal, and kill each other... if we are the same why act differently? My argument is we are not the the same we are by design, something more, those who do engage in that lifestyle repent and are saved or perish eternally.

We have an intellect capable of understanding a complex morality.

I would suggest you get a pet dog or go to the zoo and watch a family of gorillas and you will witness a basic understanding of right and wrong. You will witness compassion and love.

We have a higher standard of morals because we are more intelligent.

[topgame85]

I see no hate at all in the equation, so what are you referring to? All human beings are not evil but instead have sinned. There is a clear distinction here. If you sin and do not truely have remorse for it then you have not repented. I am not a subscriber to the "rituals" involved with repentance. To me true remorse equates repentence not oh I got caught or I may end up in hell but genuine displeasure in your past actions and the effort to not continue them. You also do not need to know God to be accepted into his kingdom. The ones who say you do just want another member of the "club" and are involved in religion for the wrong reasons. True christians are supposed to lead by example and spread his word not force others to sign on or bribe them to join up. Although I freely admit that does happen due to poor teachers/false prophets and the uninformed fanatic does not mean all christians agree with or believe in it.

[topgame85]

We have an intellect capable of understanding a complex morality.

I would suggest you get a pet dog or go to the zoo and watch a family of gorillas and you will witness a basic understanding of right and wrong. You will witness compassion and love.

We have a higher standard of morals because we are more intelligent.

Because we were made in the image of our maker.

[chilidog]

Because we were made in the image of our maker.

Humans were made in the image of our maker.
Humans are born into sin.
made=born
God=sin

[topgame85]

Humans are born without sin however all but Jesus have sinned after birth. You have the ability to die without sin and be saved , that is what christianity is all about.

[Dr.Gonzo]

Because we were made in the image of our maker.

Because we evolved.

Or are you going to try and deny evolution?

[36mafia]

Because we evolved.

Or are you going to try and deny evolution?

god, jesus christ, whomever it may concern carefully designed evolution

[William Walters]

nah id rather use that as rolling paper

Stop already..........we all know you use your hand.........not "rolling paper".

[topgame85]

Because we evolved.

Or are you going to try and deny evolution?

What exactly does one have to do wiith the other? Both could be logical..... would not a divine creator realize that with changing conditions humanity would need the ability to adjust? To me it is more evidence of not just being a thing of chance.

[Dr.Gonzo]

What exactly does one have to do wiith the other? Both could be logical..... would not a divine creator realize that with changing conditions humanity would need the ability to adjust? To me it is more evidence of not just being a thing of chance.

It's evidence the bible is bullshit. There is a difference between a belief in god and being a Christian. You admit you are a Christian don't try and change the boundaries of the debate untill you admit defeat.

[topgame85]

Admitting defeat when you have not only not lost but know you are correct generally is not the right path. You have the right to believe whatever you want as a gift from your creator and are exercising that right. That decision and opinion are yours to have but does not make you right..... I still have heard zero real proof or evidence against the existence of God. Being a Christian does not mean one thing, it is a vast range of people with different backgrounds, interpretations, and beliefs. Really the word Christian is meant to categorize anyone who believe in our lord and saviour Jesus Christ, that he was the son of God, and that he died for our sins. Other than that there is no specific guideline to call yourself a christian. Maybe you were raised in a strict specific christian sect that had different opinions but that is not how all christians are , were, or have become. Your experience with what is no doubt an unmeasureably small percentage of the millions of Christians and sects of christianity around the world has clearly brought you to this thinking. Similar to if I get robbed by a few black people on separate occasions and no white people I would think most blacks like to rob people, it is called stereotyping.