Most Israelis Want Talks with Hamas

[ritehook]

If you think Hamas is a sports team and the Israelis are perhaps an ace cheerleading squad --- move on quickly to the next thread.

One of Israeli's leading daily newspapers, Haaretz, recently published a poll done under the auspices of Tel Aviv University.

It found that 64% of Israelis think that their govt should hold serious talks with the Hamas govt in Gaza.

Even 48% of Likud Party (the ultra-nationalist party there) thought it a good idea.

55 % in the little Israeli town frequently shelled by Hamas militants also wanted it to happen.'

Of the Labor Party members, 72% were in affirmative.

So why doesn't it happen?

Same reason that US troops are still in Iraq, altho 2/3rds of the American public wants them home.

Governments at odds with their people. Govt with thier own agendas, screw the vox populi. Is this what Jefferson, Madison, et al had created?

[thegreatdiatchi]

It's the effect of two things

1. A pure capitalist society. When money is everything some people will do anything to either obtain or maintain that power (aka in this case money).

2. American citizens have grown apathetic - both because of the people the elect and because of pure laziness thinking that everything will just be handed to them.

[sammyboy]

what is Israel supposed to do?

If you think Hamas is a sports team and the Israelis are perhaps an ace cheerleading squad --- move on quickly to the next thread.

One of Israeli's leading daily newspapers, Haaretz, recently published a poll done under the auspices of Tel Aviv University.

It found that 64% of Israelis think that their govt should hold serious talks with the Hamas govt in Gaza.

Even 48% of Likud Party (the ultra-nationalist party there) thought it a good idea.

55 % in the little Israeli town frequently shelled by Hamas militants also wanted it to happen.'

Of the Labor Party members, 72% were in affirmative.

So why doesn't it happen?

Hamas is not the Governing Party, Al Fatah is... Hamas will rather continue to hold their strong point in Gaza so they can continue launching their Kazam rockets into northern Israel. It is known that not only the Israeli people, but the Palestinian people want peace as as well. How in the world is the Israeli government going to hold peace conversations with the terrorist members of Hamas? If Hamas stops the terrorist attacks, they can kiss good bye the financial assistance they receive from Iran, Syria and other countries that support them. Under those circumstances, Israel has no choice but to respond with fire; regardless of the people's wishes for peace. When you are surrounded by enemies, the response must be brutal, otherwise you will be devastated...unfortunately; the innocent people (99% of the population) are caught in the middle of this circle of violence.

[sammyboy]

It's the effect of two things

1. A pure capitalist society. When money is everything some people will do anything to either obtain or maintain that power (aka in this case money).

There's no money or material interests involved, for example, after leaving gaza, Israel left very prosperous plantation fields in the desert to the palestinians, developed by israelis and with Isreali technology...what has happened to those fields thanks to the terrorists? they are now what they used to be...desert. We all understand that all parties involved want to live in peace, but there can't be a peace agreement if the agression does not stop. In a perfect world, if you are attacked, you turn the other cheek, Israel just can't afford to do that...it is their land; once promised and given by God and all they did was to take it back.

[BuddyBear]

Most Israelis are realistic, AIPAC and the Israel lobby are not though. Thus the manipulation of public opinion in this country favoring Israel's war criminal policies.

[NEP Dynasty]

Hamas is a terrorist organization. F them. Israel shouldn't even bother to negotiate with the terrorist bastards.

[BuddyBear]

Hamas is a terrorist organization. F them. Israel shouldn't even bother to negotiate with the terrorist bastards.

And the IDF isn't?

[NEP Dynasty]

Correct

[BuddyBear]

Correct

Let me guess, the IDF goes "to great lengths to avoid civilian casualities and regrets the loss of life whereas the terrorists don't care"

If that was the case, how did Hizbullah end up being more precise in terms of civilians killed than the IDF in the 2006 summer war in which they defeated Israel handly?

[NEP Dynasty]

If you don't like Israel, so be it.

But if you want to classify the IDF and Hamas are equal with regards to terrorism, I think you are very misguided. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They target and kill civilians.

[BuddyBear]

If you don't like Israel, so be it.

But if you want to classify the IDF and Hamas are equal with regards to terrorism, I think you are very misguided. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They target and kill civilians.

Both are terrorist organizations. Just one has more sophisticated weaponry and more diplomatic support and cover than the other.

The inordinate number of Palestian/Lebanese civilians that Israel has killed over the years compared to the number of legitimate combatants should be your first big clue that the IDF engages in their own terrorist practices.

Of course, it's difficult to know this since the corporate mass media never covers the conflict from any other perspective than from the Israel point of view.....

[NEP Dynasty]

And how many of those were accidental in retaliation for a targeted civilian strike by Hamas? Many

[sammyboy]

If you don't like Israel, so be it.

But if you want to classify the IDF and Hamas are equal with regards to terrorism, I think you are very misguided. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They target and kill civilians.

Not only they target and kill civilians, they hide among their own civilians so the tzahal (IDF) will be held risponsible for those casualties, being hamas the only risponsible for those deaths. That's precisely while Israel had to withdraw from Lebanon in 2006, you can't fight an enemy that does not care to put their own mothers, children and women in the line of fire; then, the international opinion will be that Israel army is acting unhumanely...we could have set the whole gaza strip, the whole lebanon on fire, however, there are innocent people in the middle, Hamas does not respect that, we do.

[BuddyBear]

And how many of those were accidental in retaliation for a targeted civilian strike by Hamas? Many

That's the beauty of Israeli rhetoric is that they can say it is "accidental" and "we regret the loss of life immensely" and everyone believes it especially the brainwashed citizenry of the United States who believe everything about Israel b/c the corporate mass media fails to have anything that resembles a fair representation of the issue. Even hard core Israeli supporters know this to be the case.

Just come to terms with the fact that both are terrorist organizations. Why do you continue to deceive yourself and pretend that the IDF is just and fair and honorable? It's not..... I mean, geez, the former PM of Israel was found guilty of war crimes by a self-appointed Israeli commision as the head of the IDF. In addition, Israel is routinely sanctioned by international governing bodies for their deplorable behavior???? Seriously, what more evidence do you need then that?

Sure, I am more supportive of the Palestinian cause and sympathize with them more as are most educated people...but I don't hesitate to say Hamas is a terrorist organization and am disturbed by their continual targetting of civilians and infrastructure as well. The least you could do is come to terms with reality and stop living in a fictious good/bad and good/evil world.

[sammyboy]

And how many of those were accidental in retaliation for a targeted civilian strike by Hamas? Many

The retaliation is against the performers of the terrorist attacks, who don't give a damn about sacrificing innocent civilians by hiding behind them. there is no way a soldier can take a clear shot, terrorists are not to be killed by accident, we mean to eliminate them, not innocent people.

[BuddyBear]

Not only they target and kill civilians, they hide among their own civilians so the tzahal (IDF) will be held risponsible for those casualties, being hamas the only risponsible for those deaths. That's precisely while Israel had to withdraw from Lebanon in 2006, you can't fight an enemy that does not care to put their own mothers, children and women in the line of fire; then, the international opinion will be that Israel army is acting unhumanely...we could have set the whole gaza strip, the whole lebanon on fire, however, there are innocent people in the middle, Hamas does not respect that, we do.

Okay then how was it that Hizbullah was found to be more precise in the number of civilians killed then was Israel during the 2006 war? The belief that Hizbullah was hiding among civilians bears no truth whatsoever as it was dispelled.....

[NEP Dynasty]

Nothing you can say can change my mind about Palestine.

[BuddyBear]

Nothing you can say can change my mind about Palestine.

Great, and I care because?

[NEP Dynasty]

Just saying. I don't agree with your agruments. Hamas is a terorrist organization, plain and simple. They are out to get ride of the Israeli state. Something that will NEVER happen might I add.

[sammyboy]

Okay then how was it that Hizbullah was found to be more precise in the number of civilians killed then was Israel during the 2006 war? The belief that Hizbullah was hiding among civilians bears no truth whatsoever as it was dispelled.....

The party of God (hizbullah) can't miss a shot, they shoot at the jewish crowds, there aren't many of their own people with them, and the soldiers weare uniforms...how aren't they going to be accurate? on top of that....the war was being fought in Lebanese territory, I don't think there were many Israeli civilians hanging around.

[BuddyBear]

Just saying. I don't agree with your agruments. Hamas is a terorrist organization, plain and simple. They are out to get ride of the Israeli state. Something that will NEVER happen might I add.

And show me where I disagree with you about Hamas? You think I don't know what they stand for?

And to be honest, despite their very weak government and militant policies and their refusal to negotiate with the Palestinians in good faith, I support Israel because Jewish people have experineced centuries of deliberate hate and suffering for no other reason than their religious beliefs which is completely unacceptable. Israel and its citizens have made important contributions to the world and continue to do and the people who live in Israel should never be held responsible for the ill-conceived policies adopted by their government leaders. Their citizens have a right to live in peace and security. That also applies to the neighboring peoples and countries.

[BuddyBear]

The party of God (hizbullah) can't miss a shot, they shoot at the jewish crowds, there aren't many of their own people with them, and the soldiers weare uniforms...how aren't they going to be accurate? on top of that....the war was being fought in Lebanese territory, I don't think there were many Israeli civilians hanging around.

All I know is that when i saw the statistics about those killed in the conflict, the numbers were staggering for the discrepancy of civilians and legitimate combatants killed by Hizbullah and the IDF.

I am just telling you what I know......

[sammyboy]

All I know is that when i saw the statistics about those killed in the conflict, the numbers were staggering for the discrepancy of civilians and legitimate combatants killed by Hizbullah and the IDF.

I am just telling you what I know......

You are absolutely correct in the numbers you are giving; and you are not telling lies. The truth however lies underneath the surface; yes, it is true that the IDF killed quite a few civilians, what the international news agencies don't say is that hizbullah combatants looked exactly as civilians because they don't wear an uniform, therefore, it's very difficult for a soldier to tell the difference when he has to take a shot at the enemy; politics or ideals mean nothing in the battle field, it's all about surviving and if there is a SOAB shooting at me with his Kalashnikov, not giving a damn if his mother and son are next to him, I have to shoot back to preserve my life. That makes the difference, and yes, it is a very unfortunate fact, innocent people should not die or be wounded...and you can only blame Hamas and Hizbullah for that.

[ritehook]

Hamas is not the Governing Party, Al Fatah is... Hamas will rather continue to hold their strong point in Gaza so they can continue launching their Kazam rockets into northern Israel. It is known that not only the Israeli people, but the Palestinian people want peace as as well. How in the world is the Israeli government going to hold peace conversations with the terrorist members of Hamas? If Hamas stops the terrorist attacks, they can kiss good bye the financial assistance they receive from Iran, Syria and other countries that support them. Under those circumstances, Israel has no choice but to respond with fire; regardless of the people's wishes for peace. When you are surrounded by enemies, the response must be brutal, otherwise you will be devastated...unfortunately; the innocent people (99% of the population) are caught in the middle of this circle of violence.

Fatah lost the election to Hamas. The election putting Hamas into power was the fairest ever held in an Arabic state.

The U.S., with its de facto neocons in power, may well be pressuring the Israeli govt to cold shoulder Hamas.

The people of Israel are correct in desiring negotiations with Hamas. (You know, you don't need negotiations with your friends, only with your enemies.)

The people of America are correct in desiring an end to the Iraq imbroglio. But the same kind of fanatics who rule the roost over there also rule the roost here.

[ritehook]

There's no money or material interests involved, for example, after leaving gaza, Israel left very prosperous plantation fields in the desert to the palestinians, developed by israelis and with Isreali technology...what has happened to those fields thanks to the terrorists? they are now what they used to be...desert. We all understand that all parties involved want to live in peace, but there can't be a peace agreement if the agression does not stop. In a perfect world, if you are attacked, you turn the other cheek, Israel just can't afford to do that...it is their land; once promised and given by God and all they did was to take it back.

Ok, Sammy. God told me I am going to hold a winning super-fecta ticket tomorrow on the Kentucky Derby. If I don't win it's an offense against God, and may He help those unbelievers who get in my way when I go to get my money.

[ritehook]

Hamas is a terrorist organization. F them. Israel shouldn't even bother to negotiate with the terrorist bastards.

Right!

And the colonial rebels 230 years ago were simply a ragtag bunch of terrorists. If Washington, Jefferson, Franklin et al had been caught, they would have been hanged.

One man's terrorist . . .

[ritehook]

Israel was founded by terrorism.

The mass murder at the King David Hotel was a horrendous act of terrorism. I believe future Israeli prime minister Menachem Begun was the key figure in that bloody operation.

At that time the British had the protectorate over Palestine. And American writer (and hate-crazed Zionist), Ben Hecht, said that he held a little holiday in his heart every time he hears news of a British soldiers killed in Palestine (by Zionist terrorists).

So-called "terrorism" is simply non-linear warfare. When you're out of power, or oppressed, it's legitimate (as it was for the founders of Israel).

When you have power, occupy territory and have a government, you are agaisnt it.

Those of superior intelligence see through the entire propaganda con game.

The key fact in that area of the world is that the demographics strongly favor the Palestinians. The wiser Israelis also undersstand that, and are pushing for a two-state solution.

The only a alternative is genocide, mass murder of the Palestinians, as advocated de facto by one of Israel's pathetic catspaw, the Rev Hagee.

Impossible? Hmm, just check some choice chapters in the Old Testament . . .

[Thor4140]

Most Israelis are realistic, AIPAC and the Israel lobby are not though. Thus the manipulation of public opinion in this country favoring Israel's war criminal policies.

[Thor4140]

Not only they target and kill civilians, they hide among their own civilians so the tzahal (IDF) will be held risponsible for those casualties, being hamas the only risponsible for those deaths. That's precisely while Israel had to withdraw from Lebanon in 2006, you can't fight an enemy that does not care to put their own mothers, children and women in the line of fire; then, the international opinion will be that Israel army is acting unhumanely...we could have set the whole gaza strip, the whole lebanon on fire, however, there are innocent people in the middle, Hamas does not respect that, we do.

Give Hamas some of those weapons we give Israel and im pretty sure you will not see anymore suicide bombers.

[sammyboy]

Ok, Sammy. God told me I am going to hold a winning super-fecta ticket tomorrow on the Kentucky Derby. If I don't win it's an offense against God, and may He help those unbelievers who get in my way when I go to get my money.

I should not have mentioned that, we were not talking about religion or anything related to it, I apologize; you may want to be careful what you say though...I hope your ticket was in deed a winner.

[sammyboy]

Israel was founded by terrorism.

The mass murder at the King David Hotel was a horrendous act of terrorism. I believe future Israeli prime minister Menachem Begun was the key figure in that bloody operation.


The only a alternative is genocide, mass murder of the Palestinians, as advocated de facto by one of Israel's pathetic catspaw, the Rev Hagee.

Impossible? Hmm, just check some choice chapters in the Old Testament . . .

terrorism/genocide you really can't tell the difference, every one will defend their position thnking justice is on their side...do you remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki? if you have a roof of glass....well, you know the rest.

[sammyboy]

Give Hamas some of those weapons we give Israel and im pretty sure you will not see anymore suicide bombers.

You gave Iraq weapons to fight Iran, plus the weapons the rebels keep purchasing in the black market, and of course, the weapons they keep getting from their supporters and there are still suicide bombers. It's a problem of a different nature...suicide bombers really believe they'll go to paradise if they die taking as many enemies as they can with them.