Roulette

[vanman]

Does anyone play Roulette on here.
I think i might have a go just for a bit of fun.How do things work with house limits,say if i`m backing red or black what is min and max stake.I`m thinking of playing either red or black,if say your backing just red how often will the next 10/15 spins be all black or are they pretty random.
Any general advice would be welcome.

[Red_Sux]

every spin is independent...past events means nothing. the only way to make money in roulette is to find a bias wheel...that takes a long long time to do.

[rugbybdyb]

IT is the hardest game for me in vegas, Im sure there are plenty of people that make plenty of money, but you need to have a ton of cash and be able to spread the board, since the odds pay out well if you hit a number then you are good, the problem comes when that damn green comes up or if you dont hit one of your numbers. I have seen the limits vary but if you are in vegas you should be able to find any limit that you want.

[EaglesPhan36]

Roulette is the only game I play at the casino. Love it. Betting just red or black won't get you anywhere though IMO. I like to sit back and watch maybe 15-20 spins before I step in. Yeah, each result is independent, but sometimes you just get a feel for the wheel as weird as that sounds. Good luck!

[Red_Sux]

bet it all on black 42

[Quebb Diesel]

put all your chips up on the first spin and leave...youre bound to lose if you nickel dime it

[jackpot269]

Roulette is the only game I play at the casino. Love it. Betting just red or black won't get you anywhere though IMO. I like to sit back and watch maybe 15-20 spins before I step in. Yeah, each result is independent, but sometimes you just get a feel for the wheel as weird as that sounds. Good luck!

Its not the only game i play but i play it the most my strategy is a lot like yours!!

[vanman]

every spin is independent...past events means nothing. the only way to make money in roulette is to find a bias wheel...that takes a long long time to do.

What is a bias wheel?

[vanman]

I`m on about playing at online casino,how do they differ from say the one`s in Vegas

[Red_Sux]

What is a bias wheel?

when you watch the wheel spin for thousands of times, some side of the wheel will come up more often (on a biased wheel), so you bet on those numbers.

really hard to find a biased wheel, the casino will get suspecious if they see people taking notes on the outcome

[Red_Sux]

I`m on about playing at online casino,how do they differ from say the one`s in Vegas

pseudo random numbers vs real random events

[twtb19]

Roulette is the only game I play at the casino. Love it. Betting just red or black won't get you anywhere though IMO. I like to sit back and watch maybe 15-20 spins before I step in. Yeah, each result is independent, but sometimes you just get a feel for the wheel as weird as that sounds. Good luck!

To me it is like anything else...knowing the results are independent I still like to bet with the streak or not at all. So if red comes up 3 times or whatever amount you deem a streak then bet red until black hits.

I usually bet a few numbers I like and a few of the hot numbers that have come up frequently, just playing the streak, and bet 10 or so spots per bet all having the same amount.

I also think roulette is not a great game to play at long, there are a few people that do good over a long period, but for me I am a firm believer that most of the time you are in the casino you will be up money at some point...at that point you leave.

If you try to break the bank you will go home empty handed...I paid a lot of college expenses playing roulette and winning $100-$150 a day and leaving instead of trying my luck.

[cincy]

Why would you want to play roulette which has a 5.26% house edge for every bet you can make playing roulette(assuming the wheel has a 0 and 00) when you can play craps and reduce the house edge to the 1% level?

You will have a much better chance at winning if you play craps and just bet the pass line and then follow it with your odds bet.

[Red_Sux]

Why would you want to play roulette which has a 5.26% house edge for every bet you can make playing roulette(assuming the wheel has a 0 and 00) when you can play craps and reduce the house edge to the 1% level?

You will have a much better chance at winning if you play craps and just bet the pass line and then follow it with your odds bet.

because when you're drunk, it is fun to watch the ball bounce

[bigboydan]

The only way you can beat Roulette is if you find a wheel that is extremely bias to a certain set of numbers. I'm not saying it's impossible or anything, but it can be done if you spend enough time gathering data.

[Ganchrow]

I'm not saying it's impossible or anything, but it can be done if you spend enough time gathering data.

I'm actually going to come out and say that for effectively all realistic intents and purposes it is impossible and can't be profitably done no matter how much time you spend gathering data.

[vanman]

Thanks for all the advice

[Red_Sux]

I'm actually going to come out and say that for effectively all realistic intents and purposes it is impossible and can't be profitably done no matter how much time you spend gathering data.

some UK dude made money using this method and the casinos are now rebalancing their wheel quiet often.

[Ganchrow]

some UK dude made money using this method and the casinos are now rebalancing their wheel quiet often.

Here's the tale.

[Red_Sux]

Here's the tale.

this story is actually different that what i was thinking. the man in your story is using a much more sophiscated method.

BIASED WHEELS: SECTION BETTING

In 1982, several casinos in England began to lose large sums of money at their roulette tables to teams of gamblers from the USA. Upon investigation by the police, it was discovered they were using a legal system of biased wheel-section betting. As a result of this, the English roulette wheel manufacturer John Huxley designed a roulette wheel to counter-act the problem.
The new wheel was called "low profile" because the pockets had been drastically reduced in depth, and various other design modifications caused the ball to descend in a gradual approach to the pocket area. In 1986, when a professional gambling team headed by Billy Walters won $3.8 million using the system on an old wheel at the Golden Nugget in Atlantic City, every casino in the world took notice, and within one year had switched to the new "low profile" wheel. Recent additional modifications to the roulette wheel by Cammegh of England has made it almost impossible to use a mechanical winning system. (ref: Ron Shelley: Roulette Wheel Study, 1988.)

[vanman]

Which online casino is the best IYO

[Shark79]

Here's the tale.

Interesting read

[Red_Sux]

Ganch, if you're smart enough, maybe you can do sector targeting betting in your head...maybe by estimating the decay orbit and crunch out the numbers using some simplified version of the algorithm and bet the numbers associated with that estimated target region.

[Shark79]

Which online casino is the best IYO

I've used world wide vegas

[vanman]

I've used world wide vegas

What are the limits like on roulette.

[Ganchrow]

Ganch, if you're smart enough, maybe you can do sector targeting betting in your head...maybe by estimating the decay orbit and crunch out the numbers using some simplified version of the algorithm and bet the numbers associated with that estimated target region.

Oh yeah ... I'll get right on that.

[Red_Sux]

these people are smarter than the MIT BJ team

The Eudaemons were a small group headed by graduate physics students J. Doyne Farmer and Norman Packard at the University of California Santa Cruz in the late 1970s. The group's immediate objective was to find a way to beat roulette, but a loftier objective was to use the money made from roulette to fund a scientific community. The name of the group was inspired by the eudaimonism philosophy.

During a summer the two students started doing their own research on a roulette wheel which they had bought. Among the instruments which they used was a camera and an oscilloscope, to keep track of the motion of the roulette. Eventually they figured out a formula involving trigonometric functions and four variables, among them the period of rotation of the roulette and the period of rotation of the ball around the roulette.

Since the calculations were very complicated, they decided to build a computer customized for the purpose of being fed data about the roulette and the ball and to return a prediction of which of the roulette's octants the ball would fall on. The computer was concealable, designed to be invisible to an onlooker. It was small enough to fit inside a shoe. The input was by tapping the big toe on a micro-switch in the shoe. Then an electronic signal was relayed to a vibrotactile output system hidden behind the shirt, strapped to the chest, which had three solenoid actuators near the stomach which would indicate by vibrating either which of the eight octants of the roulette to place a bet on, or a ninth possibility: to not place a bet.

It took two years to develop the computerized system. By 1978 it was working and the group went to Las Vegas to make money at it. Eventually the system was split between two persons: an observer and a bettor. The observer would tap input signals with the foot, the bettor would receive output signals underneath his/her shirt. The average profit was 44% for every dollar. However, there were problems: in one case the insulation failed and the bettor received electric shocks from the solenoids. But she kept placing bets, so the observer, who in this case was Farmer, left the table, so that the bettor would be forced to leave as well. Afterwards it turned out that the solenoid had burned a hole into her skin. Some members of the group had already left because of trouble juggling the academic schedule with the Eudaemonics, but the burning incident caused the two leaders to disband the group. Collectively they had managed to make about $10,000.

As a science experiment, the group's objective was accomplished: to prove that there was a way of statistically predicting where a ball would fall in a roulette given some input data.

The Eudaemons were the feature of the book "The Eudaemonic Pie" by Thomas A Bass; the British version of this book was titled "The Newtonian Casino"

[Red_Sux]

except that burning incident...ouch

i think there gotta be a better way to do this nowdays with the modern technology

[Red_Sux]

BIASED WHEEL
ATTACK


The biased wheel attack is a strategy
to beat the roulette wheel by attacking
its inevitable physical imperfections. It is
quite impossible for man to create a
perfect machine. The roulette wheel is
made from wood and metal and
subject to wear and tear over time.
Further the wheel is operated by a
human who may also add to the
machines and casinos will be willing to accept small imperfections to get longer life
out of each wheel (as long as they don't detect anyone making systematic profit from
those imperfections!)

The perfect roulette wheel needs to be flawlessly balanced, the pockets uniformly
surfaced and structured, the frets uniformly resilient and resistant to wear, and the
dealers incapable of consciously or unconsciously controlling the ball. It is quite
impossible for an active wheel to remain perfect over the long run, rather it is quite
natural for the wheel to deviate from perfectly random outcomes more and more
over the long run. A slight groove invisible to the human eye will be enough to cause
the ball to drop more in one position more than others. Over time as the groove
becomes more travelled becomes more deeper and deeper. That is, small
imperfections are likely to grow more reliable over time.

The biased wheel strategy seeks to find these imperfections and exploit the
subsequent positive odds from certain outcomes on biased wheels.

Clocking the wheels

Biased wheels cannot have obvious defects that are able to be detected by
traditional inspections and tune ups. They are by nature invisible to the human eye.
You need to find them statistically, by clocking the wheel. This involves observing a
wheel and recording observations. You can then see if the actual odds differ greatly
from the expected probability of a perfect wheel. That is, on a European roulette
wheel you should see each number to come up around 1 in 37. The House pays 1
to 35, so numbers that come up more often that 1 in 35 would have a positive
expected value.

So if by clocking a wheel for a 1000 observations, you find that Black 26 came up 1
in 30. For whatever physical imperfections Black 26 is coming up 1 in 30 instead of 1
in 37. Put another way, you have found a wheel with a bias for Black 26. If you had
bet $10 on Black 26 straight up for the last 1000 spins then you would have a profit
of $1,996. Observing around 1 in 30, you would have seen Black 26 win 33 times
and lose 967. So you would have won $11,550 ($10*$35*33) and lost $9670
($10*967), giving a profit of $1,996 ($11,550 - $9670). (Note: betting larger will give
bigger long run profits but will also cause bigger dollar amount swings up and down in the
short run. So if you want to bet more, you must make sure you have the bigger bankroll to
take short term swings).

The question for you is, will this roulette wheel show a bias for Black 26 for next
1000 spins? The central limit theorem says that the greater the number of
observations, the closer you come to the true probabilities. Put another way, the
more numbers you collect the more accurate your evaluation for bias will be.
Following the above example, you might see in the first 100 observations that Red
14 was coming up 1 in 25 but over the next 900 observations Red 14 balanced
back out to have an overall odds of 1 in 36. So if you had only taken 100
observations and thought that wheel was biased for Red 14, then you would have
lost money for the next 900 spins. Short term deviations and fluctuations are quite
normal. By clocking a wheel for very large numbers of observations you are trying to
weed out the short term random fluctuations from the true long run odds. So the
basic rule is, the more numbers you collect the better.

(This is why the casino is happy to let players write down numbers for a short while, so they
overbet on false short term illusions of pattern. But if you sit at a table and write numbers for
8 hours everyday for 2 weeks they will start to get very upset!)

Personally, I also like to check that the bias makes some sense. We are looking for
biases because of some physical imperfection. These imperfections are unlikely to
be exclusively biased for a single number. Rather some loose fret might be slowing
the ball down more than usual and making the numbers behind it more likely to
come up. So you should check to see that the numbers surrounding the potentially
biased number are also coming up more than expected. So if we see Black 26
coming up 1 in 30 and we see Red 3 and 0 coming up 1 in 32, then we can be more
sure that there is some physical flaw in the roulette wheel.

Famous bias wheel attacks

The most famous bias wheel attack was conducted by Joseph Jaggers. Mr
Jaggers, with a team of 6 clerks, clocked all the roulette wheels at the Monte Carlos.
They found only one wheel showing significant bias. In their bias wheel attack Mr
Jaggers managed to walk away with $325,000 - a huge sum for 1873!! (Read more
: Joseph Jaggers bias wheel attack)

More recently, in the early 1990s Gonzalo Garcia-Pelayo took massive numbers of
observations of the roulette wheels at the Casino de Madrid. He then used a
computer to make a statistical analysis of his collection of observations. As expected
he found statistical evidence of biased wheels. He then used a rotating team of
family members to bet on the most likely numbers. Once the Casino de Madrid
owners realised what was happening, they banned Gonzalo from the casino
entirely. The casino operators went further, taking Gonzalo to court for cheating. The
Spanish courts ruled in Gonzalo's favour, saying that he had not influenced the
actual operation of the casino's roulette wheels. Gonzalo was able to win well over a
million euros over several years.

Advice on execution

You need to decide on what degree observed of bias you are willing to accept
before committing a large chunk of your bankroll on an attack. Some people will only
accept at least 1 in 25 others might be happy with 1 in 30. The more bias you want,
the less likely your actually going find a wheel with that much bias but on the flip side
the more bias observed reduces the monetary risk with the attack and the faster
you will accumulate profits. On the other extreme, a bias of only 1 in 34 is probably
too tight to make a decent profit and may more likely be short term deviation.

You need a large number of observations while not giving away to casino operators
that you are collecting large number of observations. Depending on the casino
environment, there are few ways to do this but you will have to work the best way for
the specific situation. Some casinos have pokies or slot machines near roulette
tables, this lets you sit at a slot machine for long periods and still observing roulette
numbers from a distance. You can run a rotating team of observers to clock the
roulette wheel for short periods each. You can use a small video camera to record
the roulette numbers while it appears you are just blindly gambling. The key is not to
get marked recording large numbers.

While bias wheel attacks are not illegal, casinos will use their right to refuse entry on
some trivial grounds to stop your attack. If they are cunning, they may switch wheels
in anticipation of a bias wheel attack.

You will also need to know the casino's own schedule for wheel maintenance and
possibly rotation. You want to start clocking just after maintenance and continue until
the next maintenance. If you have a way of definitely identifying a specific roulette
wheel, it may be interesting to see if potential bias continues after a regular
maintenance check.

This is more a hint, but I do have a variation on the standard clocking. I cannot give
it away but the way casinos are checking for wheel bias themselves does not match
the actual operations of the roulette game. If you can work this out, you will find a big
gap between the casino's own bias wheel checks and finding actual imperfections in
wheels.

Carrying out a successful bias wheel attack requires a lot of patience, cunning and
skill. It may not give you the high of being on a hot rush, but when you walk out of a
casino after getting away with such an attack you will have quite a different high. It is
worth it for those willing try. Remember, with casino's knowing about the potential for
bias wheel attacks, you have quite a short window of opportunity between
maintenance of the wheels so you need to be quite organized and ready to move
quickly. Also, be satisfied with having a few big winning sessions. If you are too
showy or get marked you will quickly find yourself on a blacklist.

In anycase, I hope you found this a useful introduction to biased wheel attacks.
Good luck with your bias wheel attack!

[Red_Sux]

Ashley Revell, a 32-year-old man from London, England, sold everything he owned,
even his clothes, to try his luck Sunday on one spin of a roulette wheel in Las Vegas, Nevada.



He put $135,300 on red, and with friends and family watching, the ball hit the mark, giving
Revell $270,600. The event was filmed by Britain's Sky One television as a short reality series
called "Double or Nothing."



CNN's Anderson Cooper asked Revell what was going through his mind when the wheel was
spinning.


REVELL: It was just ... pleading that I'd pick[ed] it and that it
would come in red. Before I actually walked up to the wheel, I
was thinking about putting it on black, and then suddenly the
guy was spinning the ball around and all the Sky viewers said
... they [had] voted that I should put it on red. So suddenly I
just put it all on red.

But ... I was just pleading that it would come in and I'd get lucky
this time. What I was really worried about was that I'd lose and
my parents would be upset and my family would, you know, all
my friends would be upset. So ... I was obviously just so happy when it came in.

COOPER: So you were going to put it on black, but people back
in England were voting, and they said you should put it on red?
You decided to do that?

REVELL: Yeah, that's right. I mean, with all those people sort of hoping that it would be
red, I thought I've got to go red, so that's what I did.

COOPER: Your father was opposed to this whole concept all
along. This is what he had to say. He was quoted in an interview
as saying: 'I told him he was a naughty boy, he was a bad boy,
he shouldn't do it. He should work like all other kids do.' How
does he feel now? I mean, has he changed his mind?

REVELL: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I obviously went and shook his hand before I did it,
and after he was just hugging me and jumping up and down. So, you know, I think most
all dads are just concerned, and he's seeing all my friends being married off and
having kids and stuff, and he's like any father, he just wants me to settle down and
make sure I'm secure.

COOPER: Now, why did you do this? I mean, is it true that you
sold all your possessions, even underwear, everything you had, and then put all the
money on this? Why? Was it all just to be on TV?

REVELL: ... Looking back on it now, I mean, at no point before
I did the bet did I think about losing. I just felt positive and thought about just going
ahead and winning. But now I've actually won,
I can think about what would have happened if I'd lost. And to be honest, I was crazy to
do this bet. It was the maddest thing. I
mean, this is really about all I've got left, the tuxedo, which I'm
not allowed to keep.

So it was just a mad thing to do. And I'm thinking back now about what would have
happened if I lost. I'd have nothing to go back to, nothing to wear. But I'd still have my
friends, my family, and they'd always be there for me. So they gave me the security to
be able to do this.

But you know, never again. I mean, that's -- it was mad.

COOPER: But what was the initial idea? Did TV producers come
to you and say, 'Look, we'll do a documentary about you, we'll do
a reality show about you if you do this,' or was this something
you thought of?

REVELL: Yeah, it was my idea. I just thought about doing it, and originally my friend
was just going ... to film it just for posterity,
and suddenly there's a lot of cameras following me. I mean, the basics haven't
changed, and that's I sell everything and put it on red or black.

COOPER: I hope you at least put some of it in the bank.

[rugbybdyb]

these people are smarter than the MIT BJ team

I dont know about that....their process was much more sophistaced but they only made 10,000 minus whatever they spent on that computer setup......I understand the biased wheel etc, but none of the systems take into consideration of how hard the "dealer" throws the ball and where on the wheel the ball is actually let go.....I have to agree with Ganch....There is no way to make money on this over time.....

[vanman]

Well i think you can make money on roulette,when i do give it a go i will update this thread as to how i got on.The only thing i need now is an online casino with high limits for roulette.

[Red_Sux]

Well i think you can make money on roulette,when i do give it a go i will update this thread as to how i got on.The only thing i need now is an online casino with high limits for roulette.

you trying the martingale strategy? good luck

[vanman]

you trying the martingale strategy? good luck

What`s the Martingale strategy?

[leilamiller]

"He put $135,300 on red"

Where? In casino with maximum bet $5000 ?

In Las Vegas is no single casino with maximum bet $135,300...