Bookmaker (betcris) cheated me!

pavyracer · 02-07-08, 01:58 PM

Rumor has it that Bookmaker executives were at the particular soccer game and initiated the first punch for the brawl.

Wheell · 02-07-08, 02:15 PM

The bet should not be graded as a winner. Presume that the score was 0-0. The people who bet the under cannot claim a win because 3 goals could be scored in the last 15 minutes. The people who bet the over cannot claim a win for obvious reasons. Now, return to our current situation. If the people who bet the under can never claim a win after 75 minutes, the same must hold true for the people who bet the over.

I'm sorry for your plight but they made the correct decision.

The only exception is if the rules state an amount of time that makes the game official such that the under would win as well (given less scoring).

boyowen · 02-07-08, 02:19 PM

Wheell, I'm afraid I don't agree with you. If they score was 0-0 the bet wouldn't be unconditionally determined (as it still could go over the spread). But once it goes over the spread (in this case 2.5), the bet is totally determined as it can only be OVER 2.5.

Any European bookie with that rule (many have the same) would pay in that situation.

Tchocky · 02-07-08, 02:21 PM

I hate to agree with BetChris or any other book but they are right. When you're betting on the total or handicapping games as in tennis, the game/match must be completed for all wagers to stand.

Wheell · 02-07-08, 02:22 PM

boyowen: Ergo if the game only goes 75 minutes the over is a free roll? I cannot believe that is the correct application of the rule.

boyowen · 02-07-08, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by Tchocky

I hate to agree with BetChris or any other book but they are right. When you're betting on the total or handicapping games as in tennis, the game/match must be completed for all wagers to stand.

You are right, that is in most sports but not in soccer under many bookmaker rules.

Cris soccer rules are very clear to me. Once the bet is determined they have to grade it as loser or winner. If they mean what you say they should write it. That's what the bookmaker rules are for!

seripoth · 02-07-08, 02:27 PM

If the score was 0-0 at the time the match was abandoned all bets on this market should of been voided, yes, as the market has not been determined.

But if you bet on under 2.5 goals you lose your bet as soon as the 3rd goal goes in. Which happend in min 55 of this match. Unless ofcourse u bet at jokers like bookmaker in which case you can cause a riot and get the match abandoned and get your money back.

boyowen · 02-07-08, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Wheell

boyowen: Ergo if the game only goes 75 minutes the over is a free roll? I cannot believe that is the correct application of the rule.

In that case, Over 2.5 should be graded as a winner and Under 2.5 as a loser. As easy as that.

boyowen · 02-07-08, 02:35 PM

These are betfair rules for abandoned/postponed matches:

If a match starts but is later abandoned or postponed and is not completed (i.e. 90 minutes of play, plus stoppage time) within three whole days of the scheduled start date, all bets will be void except for those on markets which have been unconditionally determined

They settled the Under 2.5 as loser and the over 2.5 as winner on that match as I also bet on it!

That rule is the same as the one written by Cris and it has only one possible interpretation.

SBR Lou · 02-07-08, 02:37 PM

At the rate things are going around here this thread will be moved to the Private Zone.

pavyracer · 02-07-08, 02:42 PM

If this bet is not paid it will create a precedent for future brawls at soccer games. Imagine that 10,000 fans have bet the under in a particular game that they attend and 30 minutes before the game is over a 3rd goal is scored and some smart fans decide to cause crowd trouble to interrupt the game knowing their losing bets will be voided. Bookmaker is getting into trouble here for not honoring the bet.

Wheell · 02-07-08, 02:42 PM

I understand the argument that you are making. I also understand that the relevant rule is this:

"The result of the game is decided after 90 minutes of play plus injury time. Extra time / overtime / golden goal is not taken into consideration for soccer bets unless otherwise stipulated."

An over or under is decided after 90 minutes plus injury time. I know what you are saying, but your interpretation is incorrect.

Wheell · 02-07-08, 02:50 PM

WTF? The software at sbr just printed 2 posts in triplicate!

And Pavyracer, if you pay out on bets that have already been decided but void bets when the outcome has not been decided you can simply bet on the over every game and cause a riot at the 75 minute mark of every game that has not gone over.

pavyracer · 02-07-08, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Wheell

WTF? The software at sbr just printed 2 posts in triplicate!

And Pavyracer, if you pay out on bets that have already been decided but void bets when the outcome has not been decided you can simply bet on the over every game and cause a riot at the 75 minute mark of every game that has not gone over.

True. The point I was trying to make is that you should not give the power to the betting public to have an influence on the outcome of a game because by doing so you invite the mob to control the outcome of the game.

Sean · 02-07-08, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by crazyl

At the rate things are going around here this thread will be moved to the Private Zone.

There's a big difference between discussing the rights/wrongs of a specific book's grading rules as is being done in this thread and the reposting of an agenda-driven poster's remarks as in the "Private Forum" thread in question. Anyone familiar with the whole "Paddy vs. Calvin" business should understand.

In the meantime, poster seripoth, feel free to submit your complaint using SBR's Complaint Form and we'll be happy to take a look at this for you.

Thanks!

boyowen · 02-07-08, 03:05 PM

Cris rules for soccer:

Soccer Betting

Money line wagering on soccer offers a draw line as well as sides. In the event of a draw example: (1-1), all bets on either of the sides will be graded as losers. Again, in the event of a draw, only wagers placed on the draw line will be graded as a win. This rule does not apply to bet placed on the spread.

The result of the game is decided after 90 minutes of play plus injury time. Extra time / overtime / golden goal is not taken into consideration for soccer bets unless otherwise stipulated.

If any match is abandoned or postponed all bets will be void unless the relevant market result has already happened. For example, "first goal scorer" betting will stand if a goal has already been scored.

Where a venue is changed, bets will stand unless the game is to be player at the original away team's ground in which case all bets will be void.

Wheell, acording to you First goal scorer should also be voided as 90 minutes haven't been played.

pavyracer · 02-07-08, 03:09 PM

What is the definition of "relevant market result"? Your whole arguement for getting paid depends on the correct interpetation of this legal term.

VegasDave · 02-07-08, 03:10 PM

By the logic that unders can not be scored if the game isn't completed and overs are a push if the game isn't completed and the total is under but a win if the total is over, I see no reason why I should ever bet the under considering how much less value/insurance I'm getting on that bet?

SBR Lou · 02-07-08, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by Sean

Thanks!

Good to see your eye on the ball, Sean. Hope you don't go changing my avatar though.

Wheell · 02-07-08, 03:12 PM

boyoven: If one of the options on first goal scorer is: No goal scored then yes, it should be voided simply because either all of the bets should have a chance to win, or none. If the under is not live, then the over is not live. If I cannot win first goal scorer in my best case scenario, neither can you.

Heads I win, Tails we void?

VegasDave · 02-07-08, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by boyowen

Cris rules for soccer:

Wheell, acording to you First goal scorer should also be voided as 90 minutes haven't been played.

First goal scorer is fair to EVERYONE that bet it.

Sean · 02-07-08, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by crazyl

... Hope you don't go changing my avatar though.

No worries there ... YOUR avatar is damn near perfect as is ... a bit too much soap maybe

Wheell · 02-07-08, 03:17 PM

If first goal scorer bets are void when no goals are scored, grade it. If there is an option for no goal is scored, then void it.

boyowen · 02-07-08, 03:23 PM

Main problem here is Cris vague rules.

As I said before any european bookie, who know about soccer not like Cris, with the same rule would grade that bet in that situation.

The question here is not if the bet is fair or not, the question here is to follow the bookmaker sport rules.

Wheell · 02-07-08, 03:25 PM

boyowen: You are correct on the rules being vague. I do believe under the posted rules that the bet should be voided.

boyowen · 02-07-08, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Wheell

boyowen: You are correct on the rules being vague. I do believe under the posted rules that the bet should be voided.

Fine, I reckon Seripoth should send a complaint to SBR and they can give their expert opinion.

seripoth · 02-07-08, 03:56 PM

I have already sent my complaint about them to SBR.

To reiterate my point:

Their rules state, "For example, first goal scorer betting will stand if a goal has already been scored." So when 1 goal is scored this market is considered complete, no matter if the match is later abandoned.

Why doesnt a bet on over 2.5 goals not stand when the 3rd goals has been scored? Or a bet on over 0.5 goals stand when the first goal has been scored?

In all cases the "relevant market result has already happened" as per their own bloody rules.

Justin7 · 02-07-08, 04:05 PM

Seripoth,

In the first-goal scored, the contest is over - it can be graded even if the game stops.

Your soccer totals bet is similar to a baseball totals bet. If the game is called in the 6th inning, all totals are canceled, regardless of the score. In soccer, Cris has a rule that is similar to all other books.

The two bets are different - the first score has "action" as soon as any person scores.

A totals wager (or spread or moneyline) DOES NOT HAVE ACTION until the minimum time is met. You're just as likely to get helped as hurt by this rule. It's the rule, it's common and it's fair.

Halifax · 02-07-08, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by boyowen

Cris rules for soccer:

Soccer Betting

Money line wagering on soccer offers a draw line as well as sides. In the event of a draw example: (1-1), all bets on either of the sides will be graded as losers. Again, in the event of a draw, only wagers placed on the draw line will be graded as a win. This rule does not apply to bet placed on the spread.

The result of the game is decided after 90 minutes of play plus injury time. Extra time / overtime / golden goal is not taken into consideration for soccer bets unless otherwise stipulated.

If any match is abandoned or postponed all bets will be void unless the relevant market result has already happened. For example, "first goal scorer" betting will stand if a goal has already been scored.

Where a venue is changed, bets will stand unless the game is to be player at the original away team's ground in which case all bets will be void.

If those are the rules at CRIS, and if CRIS wants to abide by their own rules, then the Over 2.5 should be graded a WINNER if the score was 3-2 at the time the game was abandoned ... not sure how you can read it any other way.

The relevant paragraph is : If any match is abandoned or postponed all bets will be void unless the relevant market result has already happened. For example, "first goal scorer" betting will stand if a goal has already been scored.

Seems painfully obvious that the relevant market result has already happened if the score was 3-2.

Doug · 02-07-08, 04:14 PM

I think CRIS is correct. It is somewhat like a baseball game rained out in the 7th inning that has gone over the total. Over bettors get a refund, under bettors get a lucky refund, props like will there be a run scored in the 1st inning get graded.

They might word it a bit better after this dispute.

Halifax · 02-07-08, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by Justin7

Seripoth,

In the first-goal scored, the contest is over - it can be graded even if the game stops.

Your soccer totals bet is similar to a baseball totals bet. If the game is called in the 6th inning, all totals are canceled, regardless of the score. In soccer, Cris has a rule that is similar to all other books.

The two bets are different - the first score has "action" as soon as any person scores.

A totals wager (or spread or moneyline) DOES NOT HAVE ACTION until the minimum time is met. You're just as likely to get helped as hurt by this rule. It's the rule, it's common and it's fair.

Justin, your argument seems to be based on the totals rule for baseball, where all bets on the total are no-actioned if the game doesn`t go 9 (or 8.5) innings.

I agree that the situation seems the same. The problem is, that CRIS apparently has instituted different rules for soccer than they have for baseball ... and according to their rules for soccer, the bet should be graded a Winner, since the Over 2.5 goals have already been achieved.

Just because books have a particular way of grading baseball totals, doesn`t mean that the same grading methodology applies to soccer totals ... ESPECIALLY when the written rules for soccer at CRIS spell out exactly how the soccer wagers should be graded in the event that the game is abandoned.

boyowen · 02-07-08, 04:17 PM

Main problem for many posters here is that they try to apply Baseball, NBA, NFL (American sports) rules to soccer and they do not read the soccer rules at Cris.

As Halifax points, the paragraph is clear as water and the First goalscorer is just an example as they say.

Doug · 02-07-08, 04:24 PM

How has this never come up before ? I'm assuming CRIS has always graded this the same way.

Justin7 · 02-07-08, 04:59 PM

Cris's grading (and CS) has issues. I'm in a dispute with them now about the grading of whether "Patriots UND1.5 FGs" should have action (I thought it should).