Offshore Sportsbook industry rating: D Caution Advised

BuddyBear · 02-21-07, 04:20 PM

Thanks John...these are scary times I would think.

Yoshi · 02-21-07, 04:47 PM

Maybe the VIP downgrade will shut up all the conspiracy theorie tossers on this board...oh HI Buddybear ^^

But seriously, during these times i only have 2 A+ books myself and thats Pinny and the Greek (Wsex and Cris are "only" A, and i cant rate Betfair). And VIP always was more like A- for me.

slash · 02-21-07, 04:49 PM

VIP should have been downgraded a long time ago. I guess their new rating is A, right?

slash · 02-21-07, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by slash

VIP should have been downgraded a long time ago. I guess their new rating is A, right?

LOL, just checked the main page, and what a serious downgrade!! VIP downgraded from A+ to A

SBR_John · 02-21-07, 05:08 PM

VIP is still a good book and A is a good rating for now. The A- group consists of books like Canbet which VIP is still better. That could change. The downgrade will effectively move VIP off the SBR Recommended List.

We will visit Pinnacle and VIP as well as WSEX in the coming weeks. We are trying to understand the new complicated dynamics these books are facing and what it means to the players. The SBR Ratings are going to take some time to accurately reflect current conditions.

louis · 02-21-07, 05:36 PM

Please go through and give us accurate ratings!

SBR John, with all respect I can't believe you are telling me that all of SBR's ratings are inflated.

Please go through them and put up accurate ratings!

Downgrading VIP from A+ to A is nothing. This can't be what you mean by all of our ratings are inflated is it? If so then why not go through and decrase all the ratings one notch?

Please go through and put up accurate ratings. If there are no more A books then so be it.

Santo · 02-21-07, 05:52 PM

There is zero chance VIP is better than Canbet, except for Americans, who can't play at Canbet.

chano · 02-21-07, 06:02 PM

hogwash

Yoshi · 02-21-07, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by Santo

There is zero chance VIP is better than Canbet, except for Americans, who can't play at Canbet.

Amen, Canbet > VIP.

SBR_John · 02-21-07, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by louis

SBR John, with all respect I can't believe you are telling me that all of SBR's ratings are inflated.

Please go through them and put up accurate ratings!

Downgrading VIP from A+ to A is nothing. This can't be what you mean by all of our ratings are inflated is it? If so then why not go through and decrase all the ratings one notch?

Please go through and put up accurate ratings. If there are no more A books then so be it.

This is the process we are in. Its not as easy as simply adjusting the ratings. We are ramping up our knowledge of payment processors, and the lack thereof, as fast as possible.

marc · 02-21-07, 06:25 PM

Just to put some things in perspective, SPortsbook.com, now under jazette, lost all thier payment processors. As soon as they lost thier check processor chexxinc, they immediately switche dover to another. There was zero interuption in service. I requested a check on SUnday, and recieved it today.

SKybook and VIP can complain all day long how they can't find a proceesor, but that's a load of BS. Other books like WSEX have also been able to switch over.

I think the real issue is that these books can find processors to make payouts, but they are having a hard time finding a processor for deposits. And they simply might not want to be in a position where they can pay players, but players can send them money. So until they can find a new processor to take deposits, they're going to sloowww down the seep of withdrawals

louis · 02-21-07, 06:30 PM

It doesn't take a process to downgarde books for bad service

Originally posted by SBR_John

This is the process we are in. Its not as easy as simply adjusting the ratings. We are ramping up our knowledge of payment processors, and the lack thereof, as fast as possible.

SBR John, your initial post leads me to believe you think it is more likely than not books deserve a lower rating.

In this case you don't have to proove it. If it is the best guess of SBR that ratings need to be downgraded, then please do it.

There seems to me to be plenty of evidence. Bodog taking 1 month to make a payment? That should be an automatic downgrade - no onsite visit needed.

In my opinion an A or A+ book needs to make e-wallet payments within 24 hours, and Fed Ex payments and wires within 4 business days. They need to clearly describe each and every one of their policies and fees on their website, rather than letting customers discover them when making a withdrawal. They need to answer email within several hours.

The DOJ, FBI, Congress, Laws, is not stopping sportsbooks from sending email and describing their fees on their website. Fed Ex shipments are not being blocked.

It is my opinion that several books are using the current industry climate as an EXCUSE AS TO WHY THEIR SERVICE STINKS.

If a book can't do what is outlined in the above paragraph, they absolutely do not deserve an A rating.

betplom · 02-21-07, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Santo

There is zero chance VIP is better than Canbet, except for Americans, who can't play at Canbet.

Amen to that! Canbet = fast payouts, low juice and licensed in the UK & Australia!

SBR_John · 02-21-07, 06:36 PM

Good post Marc!

Louis I'm trying to explain to you that the situation is too fluid to assign an accurate rating until we learn more. Book xyz may have lost their abilty to send checks on Monday and have that ability back by next Thursday. Do you take an A+ book and downgrade them to a C- and a week later raise them back to an A+ because they have a temporary solution to make payments? And what if they lose that a week later? Back to a C-? Are they all C-'s now because of their inabilty to process like before? Maybe. But we want to understand more before we make the ratings like a yo-yo depending on who has processing abilities at the moment.

Yoshi · 02-21-07, 06:40 PM

A downgrade from A+ to A means more than for example from B+ to B imo. A+ are the best of the best, and iam sure VIP doesnt like to be dropped out of that small group.

Since John believed all the time that VIP are among the very best, it prolly wouldn´t be correct to drop them to A- or even B+ in 1 step, if nothing really significant happened.

SBR_John · 02-21-07, 07:00 PM

Most of our upgrades and downgrades happen one rung at a time. This gives books a fair chance to respond. As far as VIP goes, we booked a trip out there today and we will get there in less than 2 weeks. With the A and A+ group we like to deliver our message and concerns in person if possible. Remember these legacy books like VIP have been in business since the 90's and so have we.

We don't want to hurt their business. We want to hopefully help them correct and improve. Its important to maintain a professional relationship with all the books especially the top tier ones.

wpet99 · 02-21-07, 07:07 PM

I'm in Europe and can vouch for most of the A and B books, i still use neteller and moneybookers for all the books i play at. Payments for me are at the same speed if not quicker.

Sam Odom · 02-21-07, 08:07 PM

VIP aint no A book, IMHO.

B+ perhaps

btw- WSEX aint an A+ either. Perhaps A-

.

tblues2005 · 02-21-07, 08:58 PM

SBRJohn,

Is BetJamaica and The Greek going to be affected by this? I think right now those guys are the only ones that seem to me as being the ones that were prepared for all of this, am I right on that statement? I those are the only ones right now that are not having too much problems because they were well prepared for this to happen.

I certianly believe that the European Union is going to change this whole thing when they go to the WTO for this. I certainly believe that the Democratic congress and house is going to get this corrected here within the next two years I believe. Then things are going to change in this whole country then. I see that there is new casinos being built right here in Missouri where I am at that look like they are adding sports bars in there also for all of this to become legal eventually. I predict that all this will become legal within 5 to 10 years on riverboat casinos. I have talked with some of the casino managers around here and they are thinking that horse racing wagering will come first to this state here then sports betting will follow. Some of these states are needing money for their budgets and this is one way of generating tax revenues for the states. I see that Delaware is going to make it legal on the east coast to do sports betting and there will be plenty to follow after that probably.

I think VIPSports should be in the B range as of now because of the problems that they have encountered.

mad · 02-21-07, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by SBR_John

VIP is still a good book and A is a good rating for now. The A- group consists of books like Canbet which VIP is still better. That could change.

Careful now, you're walking a very fine, subjective line there son. Their would not be a day in my lifetime where that statement would ring true.

To put it into perspective, IAS is a very good and large operator, in a multi-billion dollar, legal, regulated, insured and tax free environment. If VIP were over here, they wouldn't last 10 mins.

However in an effort to be fair, given the current climate in the U.S, you gotta' take what you can get.

sammyb · 02-21-07, 09:34 PM

If you play offshore you need to realize this will be a different game than before. The books will still pay. They still make a lot of money. But players are going to wait for their money just like in the 90's.

For players that need or simply want quick turnaround times on payouts it is time to realize that’s not going to happen anymore.[/QUOTE]

Does this count for international players or just those from the US

I have continued to use neteller with the same speed on deposits and withdrawals as before all the dramas

SBR_John · 02-21-07, 10:00 PM

tblues,
BetJam and the Greek have done a great job so far. This is not a book we plan on visiting anytime soon. You really have to give those guys a lot of credit.

sammy,
It certainly will affect international players if they are playing into books that service US players. But otherwise no, books like Pinnacle, Betfair, Bet365, ect., will not be affected.

tblues2005 · 02-21-07, 10:10 PM

I know SBR John they have done great as far as I see too. I just made a debit card deposit though them without a problem with a pre-paid ****. I sure believe that they were well prepared for this and they had it all planned out on what their plans were on how to deal with problems like we are having currently. The lady I talked to on the phone when I made my deposit told me that it is quite a bit harder now but things are going pretty well and they do plan to have a new processor soon, I think that they are in negotiations with a new company in a country that don't have extradtion to the United States or someone that just cannot stand the US and the US needs some product that they have like petroleum or ethanol. Just an idea to throw out there which I think is very possible. I believe the ones in Antigua are doing the same thing and it will be solved soon. I just know for sure it seems like TheGreek and Bet Jamaica were ahead of the curve on this one.

SBR_John · 02-21-07, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by tblues2005

I know SBR John they have done great as far as I see too. I just made a debit card deposit though them without a problem with a pre-paid ****. I sure believe that they were well prepared for this and they had it all planned out on what their plans were on how to deal with problems like we are having currently. The lady I talked to on the phone when I made my deposit told me that it is quite a bit harder now but things are going pretty well and they do plan to have a new processor soon, I think that they are in negotiations with a new company in a country that don't have extradtion to the United States or someone that just cannot stand the US and the US needs some product that they have like petroleum or ethanol. Just an idea to throw out there which I think is very possible. I believe the ones in Antigua are doing the same thing and it will be solved soon. I just know for sure it seems like TheGreek and Bet Jamaica were ahead of the curve on this one.

Yea you know this is one book that was very flush with cash. I wonder if their liquidity made it easier for them to find solutions? Or did they just out manuvere everyone? I would have thought books like VIP and Bodog who had both aquired and developed their own processing would have faired better. While traditional hard core bookies like Greek and CRIS would have fallen behind. It looks like the reverse has happened. I can't help but wonder if direct liquidity has been their advantage.

pags11 · 02-22-07, 12:59 AM

this is just getting ridiculous...

JoshW · 02-22-07, 04:27 PM

Glad to see a move in this direction. Obviously offshore is different now. Might be fewer books, but I have a feeling the strong smart ones will continue to find a way to survive.

tblues2005 · 02-22-07, 08:32 PM

lakerfan I think your right, the smart ones that prepared for this is the ones that will be okay. I certinaly believe that BetCris, BetJamaica, and Thegreek were well prepared for a backup and that is what they have done. All three of them should stay at A+ books and the others should be lower until they get their act together and do better for their players.