Hey Canadians! Is socialized health care a good or bad idea?

[betplom]

In that respect, I'm a Canadian then. I hate big business, big government and big religion.

Interesting thread nontheless. I'm heading home to have me a few glasses of Doc Bee's Homemade Magic Elixir

Willie, this topic has been sidetracked from the original question.

The question presented was about socialized health care being a good idea.

I believe it is a great idea, is our system perfect, no, but it does try to provide for all citizens - rich or poor.
America would be better off with less desperate and more healthy people within its borders - the current system doesn't address this.

[Esco]

I still think a 2-tier system is the best health care. I know one of the Scandinavian countries has it and it works the best
(I think Finland or Sweden.....or one of those nations)

[mathdotcom]

Europe is more left-wing in general than Canada, yet even they allow a private option.

Plom, no offense, but you should stick to what you know best: picking fruit with buzzy in Kensington

It is one thing to have a nice policy on paper, it's another one to have it work in practice. Yes everyone gets treatment here, but the treatment is poor. What this thread really needs is someone who's lived in both countries and has chronic health problems... Brent?

[tsn101]

And how many people end up in a situation where they need emergency treatment because they have been waiting so long for less serious/routine care?

Regardless of the different definitions of wait times, Canadians wait a very long time. They keep throwing money at the problem, and govt expenditures on health are growing, but there has been no improvement. The two systems are unsustainable but in different ways.

I know GPs who have their salaries capped after they've seen a certain number of patients. If they see their capped # of patients in 6 months, they won't get paid to see anymore. So of course they take the rest of the year off. Why can't I pay this doctor to see me?

GP are one of the least sought after possessions after medical school. They are not capped, but should follow a requirement on how many patients they see during working hours to ensure they are spending quality time with the patients.

I don't think you understand the term capped in this sense. The employer doesn't want to pay physicians that are rushing patients like a revolving door. The government doesn't give them a magical number and say no more, you work for free now. That is against the physicians fundamental rights, their board will never allow it.

Also, you are assuming: "They keep throwing money at the problem, and govt expenditures on health are growing, but there has been no improvement."

I've worked at various hospitals in Ontario, there is no basis to your thought process. Again, a lot of these wait times are from elective complaints. Overall, you are over-dramatizing the reality of the situation. Every patients goes through quality treatment. That is not something debatable.

[sickler]

It's all good!

I waited about six hours a couple yrs ago to see a doctor at the hospital.

[mathdotcom]

If you break a finger, go to hospital and leave with a cast, that is quality treatment. But what if it takes 10 hours? Is it still quality treatment? What about 20 hours?
What if you are on a 1.5 year wait list for back surgery like a friend of mine?

[Esco]

I was injured in a boating accident while in Florida, had to go to a hospital in Venice FLA, I waited about 3 hours before I saw a doctor, thats about the same time as here in Toronto. I dont see that much difference

[lakerboy]

This thread proves that Betplom is smarter than given credit for. Good analysis plom.

[betplom]

This thread proves that Betplom is smarter than given credit for. Good analysis plom.

Laker, I dunno what you are talking about, I give myself credit for being smart all the time.

Your remark makes the plommer haters cringe.

[mathdotcom]

plommer where is buzzy

[betplom]

plommer where is buzzy

In the Barton St. lockup, he couldn't make bail.

[mathdotcom]

Im sure the other guys think he looks purty in that hat of his

[raydog]

if a guy grosses 100k in canada, whats his net take home?

[mathdotcom]

Depends what province

[raydog]

thanks mathy....that was fukking helpful. what im asking is dont you end up paying for your healthcare anyways?

[betplom]

thanks mathy....that was fukking helpful. what im asking is dont you end up paying for your healthcare anyways?

Premiums for OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) coverage vary depending on your income here in Ontario, employers pay a good portion of premiums as well.

Those with low incomes don't pay premiums.

[mathdotcom]

lol plom you are crazy if you think your health care system is funded exclusively from OHIP. Not even close.

If you earn 100k my guess is you'd pay about 26k in BC, 27-28 in AB, 31k in ON, 33k in Quebec

This does not count GST/PST [sales taxes], health premiums, and countless other taxes.

[mathdotcom]

thanks mathy....that was fukking helpful. what im asking is dont you end up paying for your healthcare anyways?

No the tooth fairy pays for it

Who do you think pays for it??

[raydog]

so if you work, your employers helps out with the premium, but not all. if you dont work, you dont pay anything and get treated the exact same as if you did?

[betplom]

lol plom you are crazy if you think your health care system is funded exclusively from OHIP. Not even close.

If you earn 100k my guess is you'd pay about 26k in BC, 27-28 in AB, 31k in ON, 33k in Quebec

This does not count GST/PST [sales taxes], health premiums, and countless other taxes.

Mathy, your on such a rampage you aren't even paying attention to what is being written.

OHIP IS the healthcare program in Ontario - run by the provincial government.
It is funded by various taxes.

Only higher income earning Ontarians are required to pay premiums directly to OHIP. The more you earn, the higher your premium, some people pay very little, some pay the maximum, low income = no premium.

My OHIP premiums used to be deducted from my pay - haven't really paid attention to the changes they have made recently.

[mathdotcom]

Mathy, your on such a rampage you aren't even paying attention to what is being written.

OHIP IS the healthcare program in Ontario - run by the provincial government.
It is funded by various taxes.

Only higher income earning Ontarians are required to pay premiums directly to OHIP. The more you earn, the higher your premium, some people pay very little, some pay the maximum, low income = no premium.

My OHIP premiums used to be deducted from my pay - haven't really paid attention to the changes they have made recently.

Yes and I'm saying the premiums are irrelevant compared to the total cost of OHIP. It is mostly funded through income taxes.

[losturmarbles]

preface: im not a canadian, so you can all tell me to fuk off.

but this seems to be a relevant issue to americans, so i'll share my view.

socialized health care is a bad idea. not necessarily because of the quality or even quantity (both semi-legit arguments), but because it's not a role of government.
your welfare is your responsibility. not the governments. the government's purpose is to protect you from someone else violating you in some way.
socialized health care undermines the concept of liberty that america was founded on. if president obama wants to fix health care in the us, then he needs to get government out of the way.
big business is not a problem unless it has government on it's side. if government forces big business to compete in an actual market and not one fabricated by government, then the consumer wins.
it's a whole lot cheaper to fill the pockets of politicians than it is to satisfy the consumer.

a $10 shot at the hospital shouldnt be costing $150.

and insurance should be insurance, not a medical payment plan.

like i said, the government's purpose is to protect you from someone else violating you in some way. AND IT'S NOT DOING IT'S JOB. the health care industry and the health insurance industry are in an alliance with the government. condemn one, condemn two, but make damn sure you condemn the government first.

[mathdotcom]

The whole Obama plan is ridiculous for a simple reason:

it is designed to stop the growth of health care expenditures, but is going to cost an arm and a leg.



Any time I see the argument that the government can provide something more cheaply, I have to laugh. Even if government can get low prices thanks to its bargaining position, those savings will be blown in other ways - mostly general government inefficiency, horribly/backwards policies that create perverse incentives, etc.

[betplom]

preface: im not a canadian, so you can all tell me to fuk off.

but this seems to be a relevant issue to americans, so i'll share my view.

socialized health care is a bad idea. not necessarily because of the quality or even quantity (both semi-legit arguments), but because it's not a role of government.
your welfare is your responsibility. not the governments. the government's purpose is to protect you from someone else violating you in some way.

Why would anyone tell you to fukk off, you make a great example of the different attitudes between Canadians and Americans.

Canadians have different expectations from their government, we expect government to assist citizens in more ways than Americans.

Personally I believe the American attitude towards government is taught, I constantly hear American media making comments about government being too big or too intrusive etc.

Remember the topic question was about socialized health care being a good idea for the USA, I know its a good idea for Canada, America will do what it will despite what anyone else says.

Maybe socialized medicine isn't good for America, I personally wouldn't want to live in a country without it though.

[mathdotcom]

Why would anyone tell you to fukk off, you make a great example of the different attitudes between Canadians and Americans.

Canadians have different expectations from their government, we expect government to assist citizens in more ways than Americans.

Personally I believe the American attitude towards government is taught, I constantly hear American media making comments about government being too big or too intrusive etc.

Remember the topic question was about socialized health care being a good idea for the USA, I know its a good idea for Canada, America will do what it will despite what anyone else says.

Maybe socialized medicine isn't good for America, I personally wouldn't want to live in a country without it though.

Yes only Canadians are immune from brainwashing. I am sure Americans think Canadians are all socialist robuts when they come up here and everyone is distrusting of anyone making a buck, and if you suggest a private health care option people attack you like you just suggested starting up concentration camps.

[betplom]

Yes only Canadians are immune from brainwashing. I am sure Americans think Canadians are all socialist robuts when they come up here and everyone is distrusting of anyone making a buck, and if you suggest a private health care option people attack you like you just suggested starting up concentration camps.

Mathy your responses have been a bit off topic for most of this thread.

Stay focused pal. FOCUS.

[mathdotcom]

Anyways, it's no big deal. When I go to the hospital I just walk in like this and go straight to the front of the line.

[raydog]

jesus if you give lazy americans free healthcare along with the welfare they are already recieving, this place will become and even bigger shit hole of unemployed people who will have absolutey 0 reason to try to get a job or better themselves. canadians dont quite understand why americans have this me me me attitude instead of thinking about the country as a whole.

[losturmarbles]

Why would anyone tell you to fukk off, you make a great example of the different attitudes between Canadians and Americans.

Canadians have different expectations from their government, we expect government to assist citizens in more ways than Americans.

Personally I believe the American attitude towards government is taught, I constantly hear American media making comments about government being too big or too intrusive etc.

Remember the topic question was about socialized health care being a good idea for the USA, I know its a good idea for Canada, America will do what it will despite what anyone else says.

Maybe socialized medicine isn't good for America, I personally wouldn't want to live in a country without it though.

i didnt realize the question was if it was good for america. i just thought bettill needed someone to agree with him to feel legitimate.

and i dont think im that good a source to gauge how a typical american thinks. my opinions are not very widely held.

i would check your source. the american media? like who? i guess maybe you hear republicans say stuff about big government, that use to be part of their platform (small government) back when they were more in line with the constitution. nowadays, both parties only want to follow the constitution when its agrees with their agenda. anyway having a not so sunny disposition for government certainly isnt "taught" in america, certainly not in the government institutions we call schools. public educated americans are only "taught" to be dependent on government. government policies in general encourage dependency and discourage personal responsibility. and most of the media and hollywood if not indifferent, cheerlead the same sentiments. so i dont get where youre coming from with that.


however i would ask why you feel like you do. or why canadians feel the way they do.

why do canadians expect government to assist citizens?
why wouldn't you want to live in a country without socialized medicine?

[tsn101]

I was injured in a boating accident while in Florida, had to go to a hospital in Venice FLA, I waited about 3 hours before I saw a doctor, thats about the same time as here in Toronto. I dont see that much difference

Emerg is a different animal.

The system makes little difference in this case, although skewed research the media on both sides will tell you something else. Except Canadians go in knowing they are covered.

[bettilimbroke999]

Unemployment bout to hit double digits, there's gonna be alot more than just "lazy" Americans unable to afford health insurance soon.

Going to be alot of Republicans "converted" to Democrats when they're jobs get elminated or sent overseas, their unemployment welfare runs out and they're linin up to apply for 9/hr jobs

[robzilla]

I know in my part of Ontario there are busy clinics and not so busy clinics. I just got a family doctor and there is pretty much no wait at that office. The wait times in Ontario arent as bad as you might think.

[Esco]

Anyone listen to Rush Limbaugh the last few days??!! Talk about fear-mongering, sheesh!!
Its obvious he's in bed with big pharma

[losturmarbles]

Anyone listen to Rush Limbaugh the last few days??!! Talk about fear-mongering, sheesh!!
Its obvious he's in bed with big pharma

then why do you listen to him?

[Esco]

then why do you listen to him?

I used to like Rush, since I'm far right myself.
Then he went a little TOO far right, and now he's a joke