I can see a few pluses and ALOT of minuses but Canada has had it for years, what is our Canadian degens take on socialized health care?
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I can only speak about my own experience with the system, I've had no problems.
Are their problems with the system, yes, are the problems we face in Canada regarding our healthcare worse than in the USA, no.
Remember to be skeptical about the views you see on TV regarding our healthcare, they are likely only telling part of the story and are simply using fear to scare Americans.Comment -
Monthly health care cost to average Canadian taxpayer > Monthly health insurance premium for equivalent coverage in US
Quality of treatment in Canada (especially wait times) < Quality of U.S. care
No brainer, unless you do not work - then you would prefer the Canadian system. If you are a Canadian and diagnosed with cancer, you better go to the U.S. for treatment or you will die on a wait list here.Comment -
I have never had a problem either but Math I believe has it right.Comment -
It is great. I need something health-wise - I walk up and get it. My financial situation at the given moment is irrelevant. If I have 5 fingers amputated, they all get re-attached. There is no calculation to see which ones I can afford.
We do not have executives at HMO's who are earning bonuses based on the important treatments they can find reasons to decline.
I just get looked after.Comment -
Personal experience:
Broken finger - Approximately 8 hours in hospital
Broken collarbone - ~ 8 hours
Random visit to GP (ask about Viagra, questions about crotch itch, etc.)- 2-3 hours on average
Have left hospital many times when told estimated wait time > 12 hours.Comment -
And isn't it amazing that it's completely free!!!?Originally posted by MudcatComment -
Originally posted by Mudcat
Bottom line, you won't get bankrupted should you need medical care in Canada.
Americans are far less trusting of government than we are, Canadians are far less trusting of big business than Americans.
About the so called "wait times" yes they occur, probably because everyone in the country (legally) is eligible to receive health care.
I believe Americans would also experience some wait times if every citizen in the country was eligible for socialized healthcare.
I personally wouldn't want any other system for health care, "socialized" medicine is acceptable and desired in every industrialized nation on the planet EXCEPT the USA, maybe America has it right and everyone else is wrong?Comment -
You don't get bankrupted in the U.S. if you have health insurance, which I've already said is actually cheaper than the govt-mandated Canadian health insurance. Please no more stupid comments about having to choose which fingers you can afford to have re-attached.
I believe if all Americans had insurance wait times would be the same in the U.S. - if there are more patients than there are hospital services, private firms have an incentive to build more hospitals to see those patients (and yes, to make a buck). There is no such incentive in Canada.
I don't understand why people get upset when someone makes a buck saving a life or performing some other necessary service. We have privatized grocery stores that make a profit providing an essential service (food) and noone is complaining about the bonus packages their CEOs get.Comment -
Yes but if you're starving the govt gives you food stamps, is denying essential health care/bankrupting ppl who can't afford health insurance better than socialized health care?Comment -
Having insurance isn't a problem.Originally posted by mathdotcom
Just curious as to why every other industrialized nation has socialized health care and don't have the problems like America.
I'm glad we have what we do in Canada, thankfully socialized health care is here for good.
It is for large HMO's.Originally posted by bettilimbroke999
People tend to forget that living in a first world nation has costs associated with it that people don't like but are necessary for the well being of the nation.
It seems as though greed and selfishness are alive and well in American society.
Low cost/low taxes come with hidden costs, you get more desperate people.
A quick drive from Fort Erie Ontario to Buffalo NY illustrates the difference between higher taxes and better services. The roads in FT. Erie are far superior to the roads in Buffalo, which is less than a kilometre away.
This is just one example.Comment -
And if you're in desperate need of essential health care you have Medicare.
A rich person eats better than a poor guy on food stamps
A rich person is going to get better health care than a poor guy
That's just the way it is and will always be. Belinda Stronach got breast cancer - where do you think she went for treatment?
I believe it is a fundamental human right to be able to purchase extra medical care. This is illegal in Canada.Comment -
Originally posted by betplom
its simple really, there are a few much smaller populace nations, which makes it much more manageable
not to mention they are mostly homogeneous, which of course leads to less resentment over sharing resourcesComment -
What are the American health care problems, plommer?
Canadian health care is unsustainable. It is eating up more of the Federal budget year after year. It consumes half of every province's budget and something like 20% of the federal budget.
Not all socialized systems are run the same way. The British system is actually a mix. France has for-profit hospitals. Canada's is truly socialized and that is why it is at the bottom of the international list for wait times.Comment -
Dumbest post ever made on SBROriginally posted by romanowskiComment -
lol I agree with you on the issueOriginally posted by mathdotcom
I was giving him reasons why it *socialized medicine* works in other place
but can not work here
we all cant be as sharp as you
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Mathy if you really want to know the problems spend a little more time away from the forum and do some research using the computer in front of you, its obviously connected to the internet, which happens to be a wealth of information.Originally posted by mathdotcom
The Canadian system can be improved, no doubt, but the debate in America is about the fundamental right to healthcare for its citizens, Americans are blinded by certain beliefs and are so offended by the mere mention of "socialism" that they can't think clearly on this issue.
I believe healthcare is a right, not a privledge, especially in a rich country where there is plenty for everyone.
I'm glad to be living in Canada.Comment -
Sometimes the wait times can be a bother at the emergency room depending on severity (the same goes for America, this is not about a health coverage system but just good practice by hospitals). A lineup is a lineup where ever you go.Originally posted by mathdotcom
Interesting enough, most complaints only come from elective surgeries and it costs the government a lot of money to have people wait. There has been continual progress over this issue, and it is not very important at this point. Unless the American media tells you otherwise.
I've been working at various hospitals for many years now, I don't understand where you are coming from but it must have been 20-30 years ago. I have no idea where you went but a random visit to a GP is not 2-3 hours.
If it took 2-3 hours to talk to a GP then I wouldn't bother getting all those sick notes for missed classes.
Anyways, I'm not going into detail but I prefer our system over America's. Going by the numbers, the Canadian government is paying half per capita on health care compared to the American government.
That is why health care reform is so crucial to America. Not only is it costing your government more, without the benefit of every American citizen, but drugs (very important) and administrative costs are also much higher then what it would be for Canadians or basically every other developed country.
And just on the side, there is some American government paid health services for veterans, military and native Americans. Most Americans just don't fit under this umbrella.Comment -
Great post! I agree completely. I snipped some of the quoted text to save space, but well said.Originally posted by tsn101
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No offense but you are talking out of your ass.Originally posted by mathdotcom
I would argue it is American health care that is not sustainable, which is why there is so much conversation over health care reform. The same is not true in Canada.
What is also funny is that health care costs is more for the American government, per capita, over the Canadian counterpart. Where do you get your numbers?
There is a reason why Americans try to come to Canada and purchase medicine. The way our system is built, and most other developed countries, it drives down costs of drugs, surgeries and administrative costs.
There is more benefits then just every citizen has health care coverage, you are just not acknowledging them.Comment -
Wow this is an ironic post for a guy who obviously does not understand the American system.Originally posted by betplom
You are not blinded by the oft touted wonders of the Canadian system?
Canadian system looks pretty good, hey? I am actually not advocating an American style system, but rather a mixed system used in W. Europe.Comment -
liberals never understand economics for the most part...
where does the money come from for the R & D for those drugs that are so cheap in Canada?
fuktardComment -
Originally posted by betplom
A lot of truth to that. I hate to stereotype - there are many intelligent Americans whose thinking can go beyond these conditioned responses - but the ratio is not particularly good.
A lot of them will probably have to be dragged kicking and screaming into better health care for their kids.Comment -
Where did I say the American system is sustainable or more sustainable than the Canadian system? I didn't.
Yes Americans spend more on health care. You are making a serious error in all of your analysis: that the quality of care is identical in both countries. What are American wait times for MRIs? What are wait times for Canadian MRIs? If Canada has 1 MRI and America has 10, of course American costs are higher, but wait times will be 10x shorter.
Drugs are an entirely separate issue. America is where all of the R&D happens and that is why their drug costs are so high. Canada and the rest of the world piggy back on American R&D. And by the way, American generics are cheaper than Canadian generics.Comment -
lolOriginally posted by Mudcat
Such irony. Your responses are just as 'conditioned' - anything done by business, or any profits made by someone must be at the expense of someone else.
Also pathetic you talk about the ignorance of Americans when you don't even have a clue who your prime minister is. Do I have to go find that thread for you?Comment -
Romanowski, the U.S. health system spends the highest portion of their gross domestic product than any other country. That is a serious issue, especially considering the country has a mostly private system. This is actually sad to see from an outsider looking in. I wish the best for you guys, no ill will at all.
Anyways the reason why drugs are cheaper is a pretty complex issue, more then what I can go into detail. But just as a well informed citizen and doing some research as a science major, this main reason is because the provincial governments are the ones who negotiate on these costs, while in America it is the citizen (meaning no one).
Even in my province, there has been a decade long price freeze on the way pharmaceutical companies price their products to distributers such as pharmacists. As bulk purchasers for the hospitals and citizens, they have a leverage not seen by America. Hence, the problem of stalling reform as insurance and pharmaceutical companies have a large stake in the American government.
Also, some board I forget its name, regulates the ceiling of patented drug costs. Stating the drugs in Canada cannot be sold higher then the median of drug costs of I think the other countries found in the G8. Internationally, we pay less then the average. With most drugs being developed in the States, it is rough to see we are paying for less. While most other products, due to changes in currency values, we pay for a bit more.
Doing some quick research to check I wasn't making a mistake, I read about higher liabilities some pharmaceutical companies have in America, over their Canadian counterpart. Trust me when I say insurance companies are destroying your health care system. If Obama and co. find a way to lower the power these companies have over the health care system, it will do wonders for your system. Good luck guys.Comment -
Mathdotcom is Canadian NOT American, I know, its difficult to tell.
Mathy, nothing ironic about my posts, nothing.
I've tried to make a statement that the fundamental differences between the American and Canadian system is that the Canadian system is about providing care for everyone. This is frowned upon in America as they have been told ad nauseum that anything "socialist" is awful and should be avoided.
Americans do not realize that their nation is one big community and not a bunch of individuals - can't see the forest for the trees.
Are there problems with our system, certainly, the ideology is correct though (IMHO).
I remember watching American newscasts where citizens were outraged at tax increases for education costs.
"Why should MY tax dollars pay for your kids to go to school?" Because it would benefit America to have more educated people, not less?
"Why do MY tax dollars have to pay for the fire dept to put out the fire at your house? MY house was never on fire!"
Some people don't get it.Comment -
Monopsony on the part of a large government purchaser does indeed drive drug costs down. This is not necessarily a good thing if it hurts R&D. That is why I say the Canadian govt piggybacks on U.S. R&D. Canadians should be thankful to American pharmaceutical companies for doing all the heavy lifting.
Uninsured Americans pay the most for drugs because as you say they have no bargaining power. But you're forgetting about the other hundreds of millions of Americans who have health insurance. Their drugs are purchased by an insurer who has a good deal of bargaining power with pharmaceutical companies.Comment -
OK, lets get one thing straight. There is no standardized epidemiology on wait times. Wait times, I would argue, is mostly a phrase used to scare the average American on reforming health care.Originally posted by mathdotcom
Wait times change with procedure, specialty, demand severity and location. I have watched people go through cataract surgeries, scans, births, everything. Most problems come from elective procedures.
If a patients needs something done to save their life, it will happen. If a person cannot afford it in America, better luck somewhere else.
It is a problem though, but one that is seeing improvement (as far as elective procedures go). The same cannot be said for the alternative, private health care. In the sense of providing services for everyone. To each his or her own.
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What's monospony?Comment -
A board game.Originally posted by tsn101
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The one with Boardwalk? Lol, just checked the definition.Originally posted by betplomA board game.Comment -
"If a patients needs something done to save their life, it will happen. If a person cannot afford it in America, better luck somewhere else."
And how many people end up in a situation where they need emergency treatment because they have been waiting so long for less serious/routine care?
Regardless of the different definitions of wait times, Canadians wait a very long time. They keep throwing money at the problem, and govt expenditures on health are growing, but there has been no improvement. The two systems are unsustainable but in different ways.
People talk about it being a fundamental human right to have access to whatever health care you need. How is it less a fundamental human right to be able to pay a doctor for treatment? The answer to that is always "doctors will be leached from the public sector to serve this private demand, and there will be no health resources left for public patients". Because, of course, the supply of health services is fixed.
I know GPs who have their salaries capped after they've seen a certain number of patients. If they see their capped # of patients in 6 months, they won't get paid to see anymore. So of course they take the rest of the year off. Why can't I pay this doctor to see me?Comment -
No system is perfect, but its worked fine here in Toronto the last 40 years or so. Most what you hear in the States is fear-mongering. The HMO's are terrified their profits might dry upComment -
In that respect, I'm a Canadian then. I hate big business, big government and big religion.Originally posted by betplom
Interesting thread nontheless. I'm heading home to have me a few glasses of Doc Bee's Homemade Magic Elixir
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