Why Tiger Woods Is A Bad Price At +250....Even If He Wins

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  • englishmike
    SBR Hall of Famer
    • 06-19-08
    • 5279

    #1
    Why Tiger Woods Is A Bad Price At +250....Even If He Wins
    Anyone thinking of backing Tiger Woods for The British Open this week may want to consider two things:

    Firstly his price, I'm seeing nothing better than +250.

    If you're willing to bet at +250 or less, here are some facts you might want to know first:

    13 British Opens played in,of which he's won 3 which makes 23% which means his price should be 4.3-1 (excluding juice)

    He's won 28% of majors contested in and lost 72% which means he should be 3.5-1(ex juice)

    He's had 68 PGA Tour wins from 245 Starts for 27.7% which means his price should be 3.6-1(ex juice)

    His 2009 post knee surgery record is P9, W3 for 33% which means his price should be 3-1 (ex juice)

    Before this years Masters he won the week before at the Arnild Palmer and then went on to finish 6th in the Masters.

    Before this years US Open he won the week before at The memorial and then went on to finish 6th in the Open.

    Before this years British Open he's just won at Congressional and then went to the British Open and finished...? Sixth maybe?

    You can make what you want of the above info, I'm just putting it out there, in my opinion there is absoultely no edge or value in playing Tiger at +250 or less, just my opinion but that doesn't mean he won't win and I wouldn't be surprised if he won by six shots. I also wouldn't be surprised if he finished....sixth.

    My second point is there is a way around the whole 'Will Tiger Win Debate' by making your bets without him in the field and I think this is the play for a number of reasons.

    Firstly, if you're willing to play against Woods there's as much value in playing without him in the field as there is with him in it. For instance, Sergio Garcia is 18-1 without Woods and is 25-1 WITH Woods, so you lose 7 points by playing without him but if you're playing Win and Top 6 (99% of Euro books are playing Top 6 instead of Top 5 this week as a 'bonus.') you now have an extra place....if Woods is placed 1-6 and you're seventh you get paid for top 6. You also get paid for the win if Woods wins and you're second. The value in those scenarios far exceeds the perceived 'value' in Garcia at 25-1 in my opinon because the only way you can lose money is if Garcia wins outright or Woods is out of the Top 6, and both those scenarios are unlikely in my opinion.

    Just my thoughts, good luck with whomever and however you decide to play.
  • pavyracer
    SBR Aristocracy
    • 04-12-07
    • 82907

    #2
    Tiger will not win another major this decade. Fade him for a couple years till he smooths his game again. He is hitting too many shots in the trees and not in the fairways. This will bring disaster at the British Open where the trees are abundant.
    Comment
    • englishmike
      SBR Hall of Famer
      • 06-19-08
      • 5279

      #3
      His putting alone makes +250 outrageous Paves.
      Comment
      • pavyracer
        SBR Aristocracy
        • 04-12-07
        • 82907

        #4
        Originally posted by englishmike
        His putting alone makes +250 outragelous Paves.
        He may start using the 3 wood again for putting since his is constantly on the french.
        Comment
        • shhhhh22
          SBR MVP
          • 10-30-08
          • 2357

          #5
          Not much better... but the Greek has Tiger at +265. This is one of the few courses Tiger has not played in before... that makes this a much worse bet to me. There's no edge here at all.
          Comment
          • englishmike
            SBR Hall of Famer
            • 06-19-08
            • 5279

            #6
            The Greek will get knocked over at +265, the best price in Europe that I've seen is +250, but your point about Tiger not playing Turnberry before is a great one although the greens are pretty flat.
            Comment
            • jkrap27
              SBR Hustler
              • 02-20-09
              • 75

              #7
              good stuff as usual
              Comment
              • PAPSMEAR
                SBR MVP
                • 02-13-09
                • 2581

                #8
                I don't think +265 is any value anyway - if I ran a book I'd let the brainless faithful get on for as much as they liked at that price. He is a 100% fade in the British Open. I don't expect him to finish top ten
                Comment
                • head_strong
                  SBR MVP
                  • 07-02-08
                  • 4318

                  #9
                  I think betting anyone at the start of a tournament is a bad bet, unless you are taking someone at 40-1 or higher to start. Most books adjust the odds as the tournament progresses, so why not wait to see how players are performing and make a move in the 3rd or 4th round. That said I still like Tiger Woods, how could you not like the best player in the world? In the 9 events he has played so far this year he has 8 Top 10 finishes, including 3 wins, that's pretty amazing. As most people are saying he is not on top of his game, but is still having a better season than 99% of the other golfers. I haven't seen Tiger putt as poorly as he did at the US Open in a long time (maybe ever) and he still had a legit chance to win on Monday, finishing 6th. However, he put himself in position and gave himself a chance despite shooting 74 in the opening round. To me this says even when he’s off he still has as good of a chance at winning as any player who is on there game, if he gets his putter going this week and finally rolls in the putts he is known for making I like his chances. But again I would never bet on a golfer +250 before a tournament, that's not to say I may not move on him at much lesser odds in the 3rd or 4th round depending on his position. PAPSMEAR, would you like to make a friendly wager on Woods finishing in the Top 10?
                  Comment
                  • PAPSMEAR
                    SBR MVP
                    • 02-13-09
                    • 2581

                    #10
                    Would love to but isn't that against SBR policy + the dynamics of it all make it all too difficult. I haven't turned my mind to the issue of price but it would be short for a top 10 finish. I'm sure some books will offer that line if it takes your fancy. Count me out of that big time. GL if you decide to play it
                    Comment
                    • englishmike
                      SBR Hall of Famer
                      • 06-19-08
                      • 5279

                      #11
                      I beileve Avatar wagers are allowed where for example, the loser displays the winners choice of Avatar for a specified amount of time. This gets interesting depending on the winners sense of humor.

                      Head Strong: To your point RE. backing golfers at 40-1 or more before the tourney starts, in my view there are a lot of factors to consider. I'm not sure if you've read any of my golf threads but I personally only play golfers that I have capped and beileve should be lower odds than I'm taking, so my answer back to you would be that I always have my own perceived edge on whoever I've picked and that is the reason for playing.

                      Of course your point is a good one, without trawling through the data there is very little value in opening lines of any golf tournament and anyone with a reasonable knowledge of the PGA tour could make the odds for the top 25 players at any given tourney.

                      As to your point about taking prices as the tourney progresses, this is fine in theory if you don't know who you are going to play but using Tiger as an example, if you like his chances and decide you'll make your bets 'in-play' you won't get any sort of value if he's three or four clear and is normally an apalling price if he's ever within three shots.

                      The other argument i could make against what you said would be in the event your chosen player is leading the tourney or within three or four shots, if he was 25-1 at the start he would then be much less depending on where the tournament is at.

                      Bottom line is, you make a great point and there's a lot of merit in what you say, I guess in the end it comes down to personal choice.
                      Comment
                      • wtf
                        SBR Posting Legend
                        • 08-22-08
                        • 12983

                        #12
                        so i assume your aggressively laid woods at those odds?
                        Comment
                        • englishmike
                          SBR Hall of Famer
                          • 06-19-08
                          • 5279

                          #13
                          Originally posted by wtf
                          so i assume your aggressively laid woods at those odds?
                          Originally posted by englishmike

                          You can make what you want of the above info, I'm just putting it out there, in my opinion there is absoultely no edge or value in playing Tiger at +250 or less, just my opinion but that doesn't mean he won't win and I wouldn't be surprised if he won by six shots. I also wouldn't be surprised if he finished....sixth.
                          Who?
                          Comment
                          • tacomax
                            SBR Hall of Famer
                            • 08-10-05
                            • 9619

                            #14
                            Originally posted by wtf
                            so i assume your aggressively laid woods at those odds?
                            When I think you can't come across as any more fukkin' stupid, you keep on raising the bar. Unreal.
                            Originally posted by pags11
                            SBR would never get rid of me...ever...
                            Originally posted by BuddyBear
                            I'd probably most likely chose Pags to jack off too.
                            Originally posted by curious
                            taco is not a troll, he is a bubonic plague bacteria.
                            Comment
                            • wtf
                              SBR Posting Legend
                              • 08-22-08
                              • 12983

                              #15
                              the thread is about woods
                              Comment
                              • englishmike
                                SBR Hall of Famer
                                • 06-19-08
                                • 5279

                                #16
                                Assuming you read my original post (which we know you didn't) I'm wondering why you would think I would lay a golfer to lose whom I think has a good chance of winning. The fact I won't be playing him because he's extremely poor value (to me, just my opinion) seems to have passed you by....I think, if I'm wrong, tell me.
                                Comment
                                • wtf
                                  SBR Posting Legend
                                  • 08-22-08
                                  • 12983

                                  #17
                                  hey taco why you keep stalking me?

                                  i am not going to let you suck my dick, really i am not you ugly very ugly thing

                                  yea mike i read your thread, again you have to take an aggressive posture, you said he is no value and being overbet, so why not profit on that and lay him
                                  Comment
                                  • tacomax
                                    SBR Hall of Famer
                                    • 08-10-05
                                    • 9619

                                    #18
                                    wtf - EM has cashed in some big plays in golf over recent weeks, including a +4000 winner. What's you're [sic] pick on the British Open. I mean your pick. Your OWN pick that you made on your OWN.
                                    Originally posted by pags11
                                    SBR would never get rid of me...ever...
                                    Originally posted by BuddyBear
                                    I'd probably most likely chose Pags to jack off too.
                                    Originally posted by curious
                                    taco is not a troll, he is a bubonic plague bacteria.
                                    Comment
                                    • englishmike
                                      SBR Hall of Famer
                                      • 06-19-08
                                      • 5279

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by wtf
                                      hey taco why you keep stalking me?

                                      i am not going to let you suck my dick, really i am not you ugly very ugly thing

                                      yea mike i read your thread, again you have to take an aggressive posture, you said he is no value and being overbet, so why not profit on that and lay him
                                      Because he could win.
                                      Comment
                                      • Art Vandeleigh
                                        SBR MVP
                                        • 12-31-06
                                        • 1494

                                        #20
                                        I tend to agree with you Mike, British Open's that are not played at St. Andrews (2 of Tiger's 3 wins were there) aren't really Tiger's cup of tea. Turnberry doesn't have the feel of a cow pasture like St. Andrews, however it does have the feel of a course like Pebble Beach, with half its holes right along the water. Tiger may feel very comfortable there as he plays some of his best golf at Pebble Beach and he is in top notch form at the moment I would never consider laying him at this price.
                                        Comment
                                        • PAPSMEAR
                                          SBR MVP
                                          • 02-13-09
                                          • 2581

                                          #21
                                          lay tiger like a two hooker in the back of a panel van
                                          Comment
                                          • PAPSMEAR
                                            SBR MVP
                                            • 02-13-09
                                            • 2581

                                            #22
                                            I'm going to put my cock on the block and take Casey each way (1,2,3,4,5) at 33/1.
                                            Comment
                                            • jjgold
                                              SBR Aristocracy
                                              • 07-20-05
                                              • 388179

                                              #23
                                              He still is a heavy favorite to win, he has just screwed up in a few of the last majors and still almost won.

                                              I would not bet him though at current price

                                              Solid write up Mike!!!
                                              Comment
                                              • raydog
                                                SBR Hall of Famer
                                                • 11-07-07
                                                • 6984

                                                #24
                                                nice write up EM. we had a good convo bout this the other day and im glad you shared the real odds to the forum, but besides oddsmakers shortening his odds because they know he is playing well and they will take in a huge amount of money on him, there are other reasons why his odds have been shortened. the books arent out to screw you as much as you might think.

                                                shhhhh22 touched on it when he said that tiger has never played an open at turnberry and that there was no extra advantage for him. if this were being played on another coarse that has held a few opens as of late, this might be true. being that the open is at turnberry, as far as his odds are concerned, this is 100% wrong. (no offense shhh) let me explain. Remember back in 2002 when the us open was at Bethpage Black? well, tigers odds to win were around +150 and much shorter than his other "majors" odds and even shorter than Masters odds where he had won 3 times by then. Now why in the world would his odds be shorter than they were at the masters where he had previously won??? im gonna tell ya. even though there are guys playing this year, that played at turnberry in 1994, they have absolutely 0 advantage over anyone from the experience of that 1994 tourney. too much time has elapsed and with all the changes made to the course, clubs and balls, there isnt a single stat from that tourney that is valid 15 years later. ( you can argue this, but you will be wrong) here is my point. oddsmakers are basically saying that too much time has elapsed between opens and although some of the guys have played turnberry before, this open is basically being played on a "new" open site. (just like bpb in 2002) in a sense, you are taking the entire field and throwing them on a course that nobody has competed on. when you do this, the only person who has an advantage is who? you guessed it, the best player in the world, tiger woods. so his true "major" odds may be 3.5 to 1, his odds this week at 2.5 to 1 are not that unreasonable given the circumstance.

                                                all that being said, tiger isnt known for low opening rounds in majors and if you insist on betting on him, waiting till after thursday and/or fridays rounds to get a better price on him is what i would suggest you do. if he is leading after friday, you wont get a value price on him, but the guy is good as gold when leading after 36.

                                                oh pavy, its fukking scotland pal. there might be 7 trees on the property. although i doubt you were, i hope you were joking.
                                                Comment
                                                • Smogs
                                                  SBR MVP
                                                  • 12-31-08
                                                  • 4173

                                                  #25
                                                  Yep, bugger all trees at Turnberry, can't think of an Open venue that has any trees above knee height.

                                                  However, the rough will be as high as F*ck. Anything wayward and you have had it.

                                                  Tiger has actually improved his driving which probably shows his lower price than normal - i say normal, he is never more than 3/1 anyway lol - but it is more the lack of competition.
                                                  What do we think? If the wind gets up maybe -5 wins it? Not sure, but Tiger hates the wind and rain like most Players.
                                                  I am lining up a pick for Graeme Storm, currently 480/1 at Betfair, but he grew up on Links about 20 miles from me and let me tell you, that North East breeze/weather is horrific at times. Bad weather, and Storm will bring some quality......i hope.
                                                  Also, with his name, the papers would love to put some puns in there

                                                  "Graeme Storming to victory" (Hopefully since i'm betting him)

                                                  Also a trade opportunity on Alvaro Quiros
                                                  Comment
                                                  • smitch124
                                                    SBR Posting Legend
                                                    • 05-19-08
                                                    • 12566

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by pavyracer
                                                    Tiger will not win another major this decade. Fade him for a couple years till he smooths his game again. He is hitting too many shots in the trees and not in the fairways. This will bring disaster at the British Open where the trees are abundant.
                                                    Trees Abundant? 18th Hole (Ian Poulter taking pics during practice round)

                                                    Comment
                                                    • smitch124
                                                      SBR Posting Legend
                                                      • 05-19-08
                                                      • 12566

                                                      #27
                                                      Heres the 17th:

                                                      Comment
                                                      • smitch124
                                                        SBR Posting Legend
                                                        • 05-19-08
                                                        • 12566

                                                        #28
                                                        16th:

                                                        Comment
                                                        • smitch124
                                                          SBR Posting Legend
                                                          • 05-19-08
                                                          • 12566

                                                          #29
                                                          Here's what they are playing for:

                                                          Comment
                                                          • smitch124
                                                            SBR Posting Legend
                                                            • 05-19-08
                                                            • 12566

                                                            #30
                                                            some nectar for Ian's caddy after the round:

                                                            Comment
                                                            • AMBlai01
                                                              SBR Hall of Famer
                                                              • 09-16-08
                                                              • 5882

                                                              #31
                                                              If its a winner...in my mind there is no such thing as a bad line. You pick winners and you win money...
                                                              Comment
                                                              • head_strong
                                                                SBR MVP
                                                                • 07-02-08
                                                                • 4318

                                                                #32
                                                                GL englishmike
                                                                Comment
                                                                • Matt Rain
                                                                  SBR Hall of Famer
                                                                  • 02-13-07
                                                                  • 5001

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Will you be sharing some picks, Mike? I might deposit a small amount at Betfair this week if you do.
                                                                  Comment
                                                                  • Matt Rain
                                                                    SBR Hall of Famer
                                                                    • 02-13-07
                                                                    • 5001

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by AMBlai01
                                                                    If its a winner...in my mind there is no such thing as a bad line. You pick winners and you win money...
                                                                    Amby! Not you!
                                                                    Comment
                                                                    • AMBlai01
                                                                      SBR Hall of Famer
                                                                      • 09-16-08
                                                                      • 5882

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Me Pro...
                                                                      Comment
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