Lets talk Upgrades and DOWNGRADES

JoshW · 12-22-06, 01:24 PM

I would be quick on downgrades based on slow pays of almost any length, and slow on all upgrades.

Everyone was beating SBR up about Pointbet grade, including myself a while back, only now for this book to be months behind on payment.

Same with WorldSportCenter. I felt like they are were in the league of Trojan, but they disappear overnight. I think lot of C are called for now days and the As should be limited to books that have almost perfect records.

GJMike · 12-22-06, 01:24 PM

Too slowly is probably better than too fast. As your site matures and gets more traffic, the pressure is on you to be extra responsible and meticulous in your ratings. Even though you aren't near the top when it comes to forum traffic, I believe you are held to the highest regard when it comes to sportsbook ratings. Because of that, you could wreak havok by downgrading a book too soon. 'Runs-on-the-bank' isnt some ficticious term. It happens, and you guys are probably in position to make it happen, or keep it from happening. Although all books should be able to withstand this sort of thing, it probably isnt the case. So your actions have to always keep in mind what is best for the entire community.

bigloser · 12-22-06, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by SBR_John

Do you guys think we now move to slowly? Some of you oldtimers will recall we were criticized in the early days for making moves too fast.

Not necessarily .

Why not introduce a new element - what about adding a ? to all books where there are current issues that players need to research and/or that SBR are looking into

eg C (?)
or
A+ (?)

The best reason I can think of for this was when you maintained WWTS rating at C despite the fact it hadnt paid anyone for a month and that there were big question marks over whether it ever would.

Dark Horse · 12-22-06, 01:49 PM

Too fast isn't good. Too slow neither. lol

Players aren't necessarily into long term relationships with books, where SBR has to maintain radio contact with books. So that's a different ball game.

Ideally, track record is related to speed of rating changes. That would mean that A and F books would move the slowest, then B and D books. Exceptions for extreme cases, such as WWTS, and books that started out at higher ratings under the umbrella of an established book, such as Nine and Betmania. These last two books had no track record, and so should be open for quicker adjustments. The recent downgrade of Cascade, by this model, may have been premature.

Korchnoi · 12-22-06, 01:55 PM

In general, you should be quicker with the downgrades and slower with the upgrades. You should prefer to error towards being conservative, putting the interests of the players above the books.

bigloser · 12-22-06, 01:58 PM

Agreed

Dark Horse · 12-22-06, 02:15 PM

A- to A+ : Elite, top 1% of all Sportsbooks, Guaranteed safety & quality.
B- to B+ : Excellent, minimal risk to players funds. Top 10% of all books.

I couldn't possibly make the case that 5Dimes is guaranteed safe. If SBR hadn't stepped in they would have cost a player 45 dimes. Wouldn't that qualify as 'some risk'?

The book made a mistake, and SBR helped them correct it. That would be B to me. The guaranteed safety books shouldn't need those type of corrections.

Arilou · 12-22-06, 02:33 PM

I would say this comes down to: What is the primary purpose of the ratings? I believe that most people use the ratings as a measure of the security of player funds and how fairly they can expect to be treated. If SBR's estimate of those factors changes, the rating should also change - and there should be no hesitation. Trust is easy to destroy and hard to build, so that would naturally mean slow to rise (except to correct a temporary downgrade pending an issue) and fast to fall. Certainly several times I've read things here that would give me great hesitation to open an account at one of the A/A+ books - 5 Dimes (although I disagree with Dark Horse and am perfectly happy with what happened now), VIP, WWTS, Nine, et al, none of which I've ever used, and yet they keep their ratings.

I think the problem is that SBR treats established books with good long term reputations as worthy of a lot of benefit of the doubt and overall respect due to their histories, and a desire to be fair to them rather than whip out a C (or worse) for a little while as things get sorted out. I think some sort of temporary marker that just means "issues pending, see forum for details" would go a long way without denying them the respect they are due.

Yoshi · 12-22-06, 02:58 PM

Agree with Arilou, you all do a damn good job overall.

But sometimes i scratch my head and think: why are they so forgiving when it comes to certain groups (Vip for example), i hate to make that example again but Nine is an offense as A for all the other books listed as elite.
As was WWTS as A+ in the end. I think you should not give that much about the history of a group/book, but be a little more focused on whats happening right now. And what the players report.

Sam Odom · 12-22-06, 03:28 PM

To all readers :

Let's be honest, there's only a handful of books deserving of a TRUE "A" rating stick with them until the dust clears.

kiwi · 12-22-06, 03:49 PM

One could do a poll to get an overview which books would be upgraded and which would be downgraded according to the visitors of this site. It would be at least interesting.
For example I would downgrade VIP, 5Dimes and Bet365 but
I would upgrade for example Expekt and Betathome.
But don't get me wrong, of course I still think your rating guide is very useful!

JC · 12-22-06, 03:54 PM

I think SBR's ratings are the best out there, however I believe some of them are off by a letter grade. There are some A's I would have as B's, and a few C's I would make D's. And maybe a few B's I would make A's. But overall it is the best rating guide the North American market has.

So I tell people to use SBR's ratings +/- a letter grade.

If you want to play with B's or higher, only play at SBR's A's. Any book with less than a B+ rating, check with the forum first.

zippo · 12-22-06, 04:03 PM

Hi, I'm new here.

A friend of mine told me about this site.

I was wondering how you guys come up with grades for every single sportsbook out there.

How would you know every little detail down to a tee, about every little book out there?

Does everyone start out fresh with an C (average) and get upgraded or downgraded accordingly?

How can you guys know so much about every book out there, when there are literally thousands of them and without playing at everyone of them?

Just curious, thanks.

I also heard that with some books, the more money or "donations" they make to sites, the higher the grade they get, is that true?

Usually I like to speak with other people that have actually used a book I'm considering for opinons on that particular book. That seems to work best, in my opinion.

I heard an ad on the radio for betonsports and was going to sign up there because I figured that if the local sports talk radio was taking them on as an advertiser, they must be okay.

I asked a few guys about it and they told me not to do it and I'm glad I didn't because now there are a lot of people out of a lot of money and I could have been one of them.

Plus, I also heard that some sportsbook owners are actually felons and crooks and that they scam people, close their business and then open up another sportsbook under a new name and do the same thing and on and on. Is that true? If so, how do they get away with it?

fernando · 12-22-06, 05:58 PM

lakerfan,

Is Worldsportscenter the same place that stole funds from people a few months ago? I dont think bettrojan has done anything like that

SBR_John · 12-22-06, 07:06 PM

Zippo,
We track around 800 sportsbooks. We have a staff of 20 in Costa Rica where most of the books are located. Mostly we track player comments which we receive between 25-50 a day depending on season. "donations" are not part of the mix. And lastly we have been doing this for 7 years since about the time the industry got going.

JoshW · 12-22-06, 07:23 PM

Fernando-

I didn't mean to imply that Trojan was in trouble. What I was saying is that BEFORE WSC stopped paying, I put them in the league of Trojan. They had good customer service, fair lines, reduced juice, decent limits, and quick payouts. Then within days they are gone. Given that is the case I no longer can recommend a lot of books that in the past I would have been fine with 5 figures in.

FreddeSwe · 12-23-06, 03:59 AM

My suggestion is to split the rating into parts. Have an overall rating which is the main visible and one for parts.

I would like to see those parts as e.g.
* How secure is your money.
* How fast do they payout, transaction costs and how good alternatives for deposit/withdrawal
* How good is their customer service
* How do they treat winners (some bookies limits players very fast and at least one of those are listed as A in your rating (Bet365))
* Available market and maximum bet size
* General complaints

If you had the rating into different categories it would make it much easier for the reader to understand why should I try this book or not. Expekt, Unibet and Centrebet certainly deserves a better rating than Bet365 for instance but as they lack in the US market you unfairly gives Bet365 a better rating which leads people to believe that they in fact are better which very few would actually in general agree on.

FreddeSwe · 12-23-06, 04:01 AM

I understand that a split into different rating categories would mean a lot more work for you and that it would be very difficult to have an overall idea about some of the parts. If you can't rate some parts just leave it unrated until you got enough information.

tacomax · 12-23-06, 04:43 AM

Originally posted by FreddeSwe

My suggestion is to split the rating into parts. Have an overall rating which is the main visible and one for parts.

On the homepage, there is a link to how SBR grades a sportsbook.

http://www.sportsbookreview.com/How+SBR+Selects+a+Sportsbook/default.aspx

Following on from JC's post, if the best you can up with is that there is a grade difference here and there (which can largely be attributed to personal opinion) then there isn't a lot wrong.

imgv94 · 12-23-06, 07:36 AM

Originally posted by Dark Horse

I couldn't possibly make the case that 5Dimes is guaranteed safe. If SBR hadn't stepped in they would have cost a player 45 dimes. Wouldn't that qualify as 'some risk'?

The book made a mistake, and SBR helped them correct it. That would be B to me. The guaranteed safety books shouldn't need those type of corrections.

Yeah but 5 Dimes pays SBR a large monthly fee to advertise here.. Do you really think SBR wants to lose all that revenue?

sammyb · 12-23-06, 07:50 AM

I think VIP must pay SBR a heap of money as well for them to keep their A+

imgv94 · 12-23-06, 08:26 AM

Don't get me wrong I believe SBR does a great job here..

But when it's all said and done its always about one thing

SBR wants their money as well.

InSpades · 12-23-06, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by sammyb

I think VIP must pay SBR a heap of money as well for them to keep their A+

I love VIP. I have been with them for years. They are as safe as an out as there is. That alone makes them an A+ book. Good customer service and a variety of lines as well.

IS

Sam Odom · 12-23-06, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by sammyb

I think VIP must pay SBR a heap of money as well for them to keep their A+

I believe VIP is SBR's 'golden goose'

Nothing wrong with that IMHO. I played into VIP & Gameday for a long while, they paid like clockwork.

sergfro · 12-23-06, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Dark Horse

A- to A+ : Elite, top 1% of all Sportsbooks, Guaranteed safety & quality.
B- to B+ : Excellent, minimal risk to players funds. Top 10% of all books.

I couldn't possibly make the case that 5Dimes is guaranteed safe. If SBR hadn't stepped in they would have cost a player 45 dimes. Wouldn't that qualify as 'some risk'?

The book made a mistake, and SBR helped them correct it. That would be B to me. The guaranteed safety books shouldn't need those type of corrections.

I dont think ANY book is Gauranteed Safety & quality...thats basically saying you trust your sportsbook as much as your bank. At this time with all the stuff going on.....I'd be more safe having my money at the bank. In my opinion no book is gauranteed, so I wouldnt grade it as such.

tacomax · 12-23-06, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by imgv94

Yeah but 5 Dimes pays SBR a large monthly fee to advertise here.. Do you really think SBR wants to lose all that revenue?

Your point makes little sense when SBR have already dropped WTTS, Mansion and Hollywood as forum sponsors this year directly related to player concerns.

SBR_John · 12-24-06, 12:10 AM

Yes of course this is a business, no apologies for that. We run it different than anyone else. Look at the number of sponsors we have vs a competing site. Most have into the 30's while we have 12. We dont seek advertisers we invite the ones we want. We invite the ones we believe in. This year we stopped believeing in three and sent them refunds and took them down. Those 3 were Hollywood, Mansion and WWTS. They were lowered and refund checks sent and very few noticed. Its no fun sending refund checks the wrong direction in the tough climate we are in.

We believe that if you do your best with the ratings that everything else will fall in place. While others can't or won't turn down a SBG, BetUS or a Royal we always will. We do lose a lot of possible revenue but we will make it up long term we think.

Thats a great idea Fredde! Yes, we will do deeper ratings as we build.

HAPPY BOY · 12-24-06, 09:35 AM

Hey John, there are so few and honest business left Im glad you guys have integrity. I know it's tough not to sell out, but you are right if you stay true you will win in the long run. Ive been a fan and loyal to this sight since Bill Dozer got involved with my ESB dispute about 3 years ago (before SBR had the forum page) I was with the forum from day one got to meet on line some real colorful characters and some great cappers as well. I always tell my friends about the work you guys do and appreciate SBR thats comming from the bottom of my heart bro. So to all SBR staff members ,mods, and their entire family best wishes this holiday season and keep up the great work in 2007.

SBR_John · 12-24-06, 05:22 PM

Thanks Happy Boy. Your contributions are always appreciated.

Guys like Bill Dozer, Sean, Shannon, Alan, Ivan and posters such as yourself are really what make SBR different and hopefully better.