nine.com shocking decision

TheGambler · 12-07-06, 11:06 PM

I've been down the same road my friend. I never did one thing wrong but somehow I was the bad guy in the end. Joe pretty much told me the same thing and then closed my accounts at Gameday and VIP. I never tried to wager 10K but I was usually wagering around 2-3K a game (going off of Pags11 plays). I hit about 9 out of 10 one weekend and bam, I was done according to them. He said the same thing to me about he knew what kind of player I was. I guess it sucks when you get labeled a professional or scalper when all you are doing is playing Pags11 plays!!!

Yoshi · 12-07-06, 11:21 PM

This A rating needs to be changed fast, man there a lot of bad stories about Nine these days (not that most didnt know they suck...)

Justin7 · 12-07-06, 11:47 PM

Kdawg -

If you had a bet and a readback, you have a valid bet. I'll be happy to help you out. Feel free to write me at Justin@sportsbookreview.com, or anyone else here at assistance@sportsbookreview.com.

InSpades · 12-08-06, 03:04 AM

Any book where my money is safe and I am paid proptly is an "A" book for me I couldn't care less about anything else. There are probably only 10 books that can be said about.

IS

Louie Diamond · 12-14-06, 12:15 AM

Run. Don't walk. They burned me for 20 large.

Justin7 · 12-14-06, 11:58 AM

I'm addressing this with Nine.com. These discussions often take time, but I will keep the player (and the readers) appraised of what happens.

LLXC · 12-15-06, 01:38 AM

If you win $, you get the limit =\

bigloser · 12-20-06, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by Justin7

I'm addressing this with Nine.com. These discussions often take time, but I will keep the player (and the readers) appraised of what happens.

Any news

Justin7 · 12-20-06, 01:59 AM

Nine.com has ignored my requests for information. The dispute guys at SBR have different levels of escalation... I'm about to raise it a notch.

bigloser · 12-20-06, 02:06 AM

Thanks Justin.

Yoshi · 12-20-06, 11:43 AM

cant believe Nine ist still A, wtf is going on here

Kdawg · 12-20-06, 11:49 AM

Haven't heard a word yet...still waiting for them to answer Justin I guess...will let you know as soon as I have a resolution!

beetman · 12-21-06, 12:01 AM

Justin7 · 12-21-06, 12:35 AM

With Bill Dozer's help, I managed to get ahold of some people. Nine.com has agreed to give me the readback recording involved in this dispute.

With ALL disputes, no matter how clear they may sound, it is VITAL to get the facts. Getting the parties to agree to what happened will resolve 80% of all disputes.

Patrick McIrish · 12-21-06, 05:55 AM

If the readback was done and the acct # and password spoken back from the player as well, how can it not be a play? Can we at least agree on that? If the readback was completed he did have action? Be interested on how this one plays out please.

Hard to believe Nine is rated A quality here, SBR was the last hope for the players to really get some fair feedback from these forums. Those days are apparently behind us John, sorry.

pags11 · 12-21-06, 07:04 AM

I never thought I'd see a day where nine.com was an A rated book...

jjgold · 12-21-06, 07:06 AM

This book not even in the top 100

Justin7 · 12-21-06, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Patrick McIrish

If the readback was done and the acct # and password spoken back from the player as well, how can it not be a play? Can we at least agree on that? If the readback was completed he did have action? Be interested on how this one plays out please.

Hard to believe Nine is rated A quality here, SBR was the last hope for the players to really get some fair feedback from these forums. Those days are apparently behind us John, sorry.

The rule is if you have a readback, you have action (with a bad line being a possible exception, but not claimed in this dispute). If a manager made a mistake but on the limit, the player would still have action UNLESS it were obvious to the player that the limit was a mistake (e.g. regular limits of $100 and they took 10x as much as any other book). I don't think the "mistaken limit" exception would apply here either - $10k isn't that much for an NFL side... Several other "A" books take 10x that much in a single bet.

justbet · 12-21-06, 07:11 PM

Please Note: Higher Limits are available, please contact one of our knowledgeable customer service representatives today for further details

saw this on their site and laughed

SBR_John · 12-21-06, 09:19 PM

I'm not real familiar with this complaint but I'm having a hard time with certain aspects.

The book's mgr corrected a clerk on the same conversation? The mgr cut the amount they would take from $10,000 to $5,000? This was done on the same call?

For bets over a couple of thousand a player should use a book that caters to that size player.

They certainly could have handled the call better and told the player all they can take is $5,000. You can fault the book for that. They did correct it on the same call and they still took a decent size bet of $5000.

Patrick McIrish · 12-21-06, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by SBR_John

I'm not real familiar with this complaint but I'm having a hard time with certain aspects.

The book's mgr corrected a clerk on the same conversation? The mgr cut the amount they would take from $10,000 to $5,000? This was done on the same call?

For bets over a couple of thousand a player should use a book that caters to that size player.

They certainly could have handled the call better and told the player all they can take is $5,000. You can fault the book for that. They did correct it on the same call and they still took a decent size bet of $5000.

How did they correct it, that is my question. Does that mean it was corrected with both the player and the book agreeing to the last play with a new formal readback? To me that's the only way they can correct anything after they had a final readback is where they stated the 2nd time this is the one and only play on the call, and then gave the readback with the new amount and with the player giving account # and password as well. But if a formal readback was done earlier for 10k and there was just talk of not taking as much but nothing done formally that should go to the player IMO. Seriously, if a recorded readback and players input on password and acct number does not make bets final and official plays than what ever will?

I agree about the playing at other books if you want to get down on those amounts, but sounds like he asked first and was given an okay and then a formal readback. If that's the only one and it is for 10k I don't see how their can be any other way to resolve it. I'd advise the player to get of the phone next time a little quicker just to keep this from being an issue, LOL. Anyway sounds like Justin has a good handle on this, let's see what comes about.

SBR_John · 12-21-06, 09:59 PM

I agree too. It was poor service but falls short of shocking.

I guess we need to get someone to make a transcript and post it here. I'm not sure what happened. But common sense would indicate a 10 dime bet at Nine would need a managers approval. Right? Did the clerk make an error and start the readback before the approval? Sounds like it to me but lets see what the transcript says.

Patrick McIrish · 12-21-06, 10:03 PM

I agree John, a lot depends on the tape so I am just basing most of this on what I read. But let me ask you this, if the clerk made the mistake of not checking beforehand yet the readback is formally done do you side with the book here John?

I mean if you can't trust a readback at a top rated cream of the crop A book who can you trust?

Justin7 · 12-21-06, 11:05 PM

I spoke with the Nine.com.

first, Joe told me that the player did have a readback confirmation. Oddly though, he told me there is not a recording of the wagering call. This is very unusual for an "A" rated book. According to Nine, the wager was reduced from 10k to 5k the same day (possibly the same call).

How do you deal with a book that takes a bet at a "bad limit?" Common sense says use the same approach as a bad line. The two key tests are 1. was it different from the normal limit, and 2. would the player be surprised if the book later said it was a bad limit (to justify cancelling).

In this case, I would be surprised if an "A" book (even recreational, like nine.com) told me taking a 10k bet on an NFL side was a mistake. Since a 10k bet on NFL seems reasonable (whereas 10k on challenger tennis with normal limits of 250 would not be), Nine.com cannot argue this was a "bad limit" case, especially when the player did nothing dirty - he simply called in. Many players will call in for higher limits.

From the facts, it looks like Nine has "fouled". What should be done about it? To Nine's credit, they did cancel the wager in a timely manner. The player told me he could make a similar wager at Pinnacle, at +3.5 -120 (I'd appreciate it if anyone could post a line history on the Dallas-NYG game from 3 weeks ago). While I deplore the cancelling of a confirmed wager, I have to ask: how badly was the player hurt?

the player had time to bet it somewhere else because of the prompt cancellation. What is the difference in equity between:
NYG +3x -110 and
NYG +3x -120, for 5k?
About $250. If the book gave the player a $250 credit, he would be "made whole". Nine.com refused to give the player any credit.

My recommendation to Bill Dozer was to demote Nine.com to A-. My 3 reasons: 1. Cancelling/reducing a wager after a readback. This is simply outrageous. Nine's rules even refer to Las Vegas rules, which would never allow this to happen. 2. Failing to keep a recording of a telephone play. All books do this, especially an A book. It is all the more important when there is a dispute on the call. 3. Failing to remedy this promptly when it was brought to their attention.

Bill Dozer and I talked at great length about this. We're still discussing this, but he is leaning towards maintaining Nine's "A" rating. The wager was reduced on the same telephone call, and the player was minimally prejudiced. While I understand Bill's points, I respectfully disagree, and would demote them for this incident.

Bill Dozer · 12-22-06, 02:45 AM

This is good feedback for readers for a couple different points. The player has a valid complaint regarding service but I don't see any monetary loss or reason why he should be paid for this bet.

1. The error was corrected in real-time. It is not as if he was called back after there was steam and he lost equity in his play. We recently had a BetMania complaint where the book canceled a player's bet because the line moved and "he bet steam." The book had two options to be fair, honor the bet or buy the player out of his bet by paying the difference from the new market price. Mania agreed to honor the bet. Books reserve the right to correct their errors but it shouldn't be at the player's cost.

2. The player's complaint comes after the bet won. By waiting until after the game allows the player a free chance at $5,000.

I am in no way implying that Kdawg is expecting the bet to be honored and is taking a free shot at $5,000. He is only sharing how he was treated at Nine and has also supplied SBR with valuable feedback off the forum.

TLD · 12-22-06, 03:53 AM

The supposed lack of a recording is very likely baloney. In any case, since there is a reasonable expectation that a book can and will produce a recording in the case of a dispute like this, and since this book has failed to do so, the facts should be presumed to be as would favor the player’s assertions.

I’m not sure that the player even has a duty to mitigate the damages as has been suggested, for instance by putting the bet in at Pinnacle instead and then trying to settle with Nine later for just the extra juice he had to pay. That strikes me more as a reasonable or courteous thing to do, but not an obligatory thing to do.

If I make a bet with someone, and they later say they changed their mind—even if they do it before the event starts and even if I still have a chance to bet it with someone else—it’s my prerogative to let them out of it or not. I can be a nice guy and let them change their mind, but if instead I choose to be obstinate and tell them “A bet’s a bet,” then that’s the way it should be.

Offer, acceptance, confirmation, no obvious error. That’s a bet. And it remains a bet unless and until both parties agree to rescind it.

And they not only won’t honor the bet, but they won’t even agree to a token $250 to cover the lost value of betting it elsewhere? Yeah, I’d downgrade them too, and I don’t think I’d stop at A-.

Kdawg · 12-22-06, 05:04 AM

Hey guys -- I'll try to respond to everyone here and straighten out the facts...

First of all -- this was not a clerk giving me misinformation and approving a wager on hos own. He told me there was USUALLY a limit on these games, but as always would ask for manager approval (I do this all the time and as someone pointed out, thats exactly what it syas to do on their site). He kept me on hold for at leats 5 mins and then came back and said ok it was approved. Now this is an NFL side well before game time -- why would I think that he made a mistake?? He gave an offical readback and I confirmed with my account # and password as always. As far as the person who told me to hang up quickly, I was in hte proccess of putting the phonbe down when I heard the clerk yell wait hold on...I had no idea they would pull a stunt like this.
As far as Bill's comments -- I waited to tell you initially because I thought I would be able to talk tp Joe and he would do the right thing and give me the wager. I wasnt able to reach him until an hour or so before the game -- then I didnt report it becuase I was worried from the way Joe treated me on the phone that if I did they would steal all my money and I had more than 10k in there at the time. Soi got it all out and then posted -- and as Bill correctly points out, I would have piosted this as a heads up for everyone reghardles of whether the wager was a winner or loser.
Now I dont know how the hell they can admit all this to Justin and then not give anything here. That is beyond me. The facts are clear and undisputed. And as far as covering on pinnacle, that is not my obligation -- and certainly not right away...a few hours before game time the line actually was closer to -130 and not -120 -- so Justin when would you do that tally you worked up when it was 120 or 130?? impossible to tell.
I also do not understand Bill's stance on this issue at all.
I HAD MANAGER APPROVAL, A REDBACK AND CONFIRMATION -- WHAT ELSE DOES SOMEONE NEED IN THIS INDUSTRY?? If I had hung up the phone and not heard the guy say something -- Im sure the book would have cancelled the wager and I would have had no idea. This is a horrible book and I can imagine ho you would stand by them in this -- no one else has?? and how is this different than cacnelling that steam play an giving the book two options as you point out? Its the exact same thing here. If I had taken the other side of the game...I would have just lost 10 cents becuase I would have had to bet this side now at 120 or 130 and not 110. So at the very least, likwe you point out with Mania, they would have tp pay the difference between what it would have cost me to cover the wager myself on a differwent book becuase of their error!!! (that is Justins stance, that at the very leats they shoukld give me the difference)

In any event -- I hope this ends well, but I am not too optomistic. Reagrdless of what Bill and SBR rate this bok -- as you all point out stay far far away. They will screw you without repurcussions.

bigloser · 12-22-06, 11:29 AM

In Summary

Nine
1) Cancel a bet shortly after read back
2) Refuse to take Justins calls
3) "Lose" the recording of the read back

AND

4) MAINTAIN THEIR RATING

Justin7 · 12-22-06, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by bigloser

In Summary

Nine
1) Cancel a bet shortly after read back
2) Refuse to take Justins calls
3) "Lose" the recording of the read back

AND

4) MAINTAIN THEIR RATING

They did take my calls, it just took awhile to climb up the food-chain.

Dark Horse · 12-22-06, 01:00 PM

Bet is a contract, there was nothing crazy going on; contract stands. The read-back and confirmation are the 'signing' of the contract. Both parties signed it.

If Nine didn't like the amount in the contract, why didn't they just get some money down on the other side? Isn't that what most books tell a player to do in similar situations?

JoshW · 12-22-06, 01:35 PM

I have to admit this is downgrade material. Player goes through all that, gets read back, and confirms and then doesnt' have a bet on a non bad line? Are you kidding me. I think Joe might be a little overworked with VIP and Nine together. But that is just crazy.

beetman · 12-22-06, 05:42 PM

I have a Pinnacle line history but it's pretty long since they had the line up for 8 days or so. For what day(s) do you need the line history or should I just post the entire thing?

Bill Dozer · 12-22-06, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by Kdawg

-- then I didnt report it becuase I was worried from the way Joe treated me on the phone that if I did they would steal all my money and I had more than 10k in there at the time.

Not buying that. There is no way you thought disputing the amount of your bet with this book was going to result in theft of $10k and you surely wouldn't expect to be debited if you lost. You are also implying that you can not instantly relay things in confidence to me or SBR which goes against months of communication history. We have also discussed the importance of time-stamped emails in the past.

Originally posted by Kdawg

Now I dont know how the hell they can admit all this to Justin and then not give anything here. That is beyond me. The facts are clear and undisputed. And as far as covering on pinnacle, that is not my obligation -- and certainly not right away...a few hours before game time the line actually was closer to -130 and not -120 -- so Justin when would you do that tally you worked up when it was 120 or 130?? impossible to tell.
I also do not understand Bill's stance on this issue at all.
I HAD MANAGER APPROVAL, A REDBACK AND CONFIRMATION -- WHAT ELSE DOES SOMEONE NEED IN THIS INDUSTRY?? If I had hung up the phone and not heard the guy say something -- Im sure the book would have cancelled the wager and I would have had no idea. This is a horrible book and I can imagine ho you would stand by them in this -- no one else has??

No one is "standing by this". As I said in my previous post, it's valid complaint but I in no way think the botched call should give you a Risk $0 to Win $5000 bet. If you think the market changed after the 10k was accepted and before the call ended then there is an instant loss that is not time-sensitive that would be looked at. I would have liked to see see them bonus you for the inconvenience but you can't parlay the consensus that this was poor action by the book into a $5,000 claim.

Kdawg · 12-23-06, 08:34 PM

Bill -- first of all I never once claimed that they owed me 5000. In fact, I wasnt even the one who came to you to aks for 5000 form the book. If you go back and read the posts, I know Joe and his reputation and from the way he treated me, I never I expected to get a dime from those bastards. That is just another past of the reason that I didnt come to you right away becuase I didnt expect them to pay me 5k. I truly did fear that they would steal my money, You know better than anyone, this wouldnt be the first book to do that to a player. Im sure Joe and the rest of the shady team there would have come up with some ridicuous rule that I violated and had no moral issues debiting my account. If you dont believe that is a true fear, see your home page on sbr where that is done all the time. If you listen to what Joe said to me and how he treated me, you likely would understand where Im coming from -- but then again, they "lost" the tape. He basically told me to finish my wagers and getr the hell out of his book cuz he didnt like my play. Youre damn right i was scared that he would steal my money.

and back to your other point, check every email correspondence I had with Justin. I never once said I deserve or should get 5k, That was not the contention here. And yes you are correct -- by them confirming a 10k wager, and them cutting that in half, I lose immediately by having to cover the rest of that wager...no????