Baseball, you can't explain it: Texas Rangers edition.

[ChalkyDog]

Will someone explain to me how a guy who was converted into an OF, and does so marginally, that will turn 32 this season, who's never been an All-Star, or won a Gold Glove, who's also a career .288 hitter, who's never hit more than 21 HR's in a year, and never had more than 90 RBI's, is worth 130 Million over 7 years?

You essentially just gave the next Troy O'Leary 130 million dollars. Someone explain why the Rangers don't understand baseball to me.

Look, Shin-Soo Choo is a good baseball player, but he is not worth 18 million a year. Not in this market, not in any market. Well done to his agent, but the Rangers - Take a lap.

[opie1988]

Wow. You should seriously apply to take over for Jon Daniels. Had no idea you were this knowledgable about baseball decisions.

I wonder how that fukkin retard Daniels has managed to make 2 World Series, and be one 3 teams to win over 90 games each of the past 4 seasons?
Let's remember....Daniels is the same moron that signed that piece of shit Yu Darvish, and let a stud like Josh Hamilton walk to a division rival.

Guy clearly doesn't have a fukkin clue how to run a baseball club.

Hopefully he looks at SBR and can take some tips from all the brilliant baseball minds that post here.

[jjgold]

Baseball set up go bankrupt in 10 years
I hope it does

[firedawg]

how do they pay these guys this much ? do they bring in that much money ? opie tell dawgy

[wagerjunkie]

Choo is a lead off hitter....table setter..how the hell would he have over 90 RBIs in a season or over 21 HRs.....he is a table setter....


he is just starting to hit his stride and come into his prime over the last 3 years. and him being a lefty in that ballpark, his numbers should skyrocket. with Andrus not doing what they had hoped for at the top of the line up, this move is perfect.

[wagerjunkie]

Choo
Andrus
Fielder
Beltre


that is absolutely devastating left-right-left-right (speed with power,average-speed-monster power-monster power-average) for a pitcher to deal with in Arlington.

[billysink]

I don't think that money was well spent. That guy is so bad against lefties anymore, you are gonna get 325 good at bats and 200 where you gonna want to throw your remote through the fukkin TV

[bobby heenan]

troy o'leary....woowww!

[opie1988]

Choo
Andrus
Fielder
Beltre


that is absolutely devastating left-right-left-right (speed with power,average-speed-monster power-monster power-average) for a pitcher to deal with in Arlington.

Rangers lineup for 2014:


Shin-Soo Choo, LF.

Elvis Andrus, SS.

Adrian Beltre, 3B.

Prince Fielder, 1B.

Alex Rios, RF.

Mitch Moreland, DH.

Giovany Soto, C.

Jurickson Profar, 2B.

Leonys Martin, CF.

I can live with that.

[You mad bro]

Rangers lineup for 2014:


Shin-Soo Choo, LF.

Elvis Andrus, SS.

Adrian Beltre, 3B.

Prince Fielder, 1B.

Alex Rios, RF.

Mitch Moreland, DH.

Giovany Soto, C.

Jurickson Profar, 2B.

Leonys Martin, CF.

I can live with that.

fielder is a fat ass but should love playing in texas lol

[Boner_18]

Poor signing. That's all there is to it. GM is hack.

[Dirty Sanchez]

Choo is a jabroni...couple of years ago got a DUI double the limit and was crying like a baby...dude needs to grow a sack. Should fit right in with the sensitive types down there in Jerry Land

[stealthyburrito]

Paid a little too much but its a good pickup.

[King Mayan]

Choo is a jabroni...couple of years ago got a DUI double the limit and was crying like a baby...dude needs to grow a sack. Should fit right in with the sensitive types down there in Jerry Land

[gryfyn1]

Good signing, moving Choo back to RF where he is at least an average fielder as opposed to the mess he was in CF will be a good move for him.

18m/year in this market is about right, Basbeball teams are swimming in money and and those millions are going to players or lining the pockets of the millionaires that own the teams. So people can continue to whine that baseball players get too much or take a ride in reality and realize that quality players cost alot in free agency.

[stevenash]

It is a good signing, he's an on base machine. Double Digit homers from lead off
Good glove.
2nd in the league in walks.
6.0 WAR, O/WAR 6.4 third best in the majors
WPA/LI+ is third best in the majors

[Cuse0323]

how do they pay these guys this much ? do they bring in that much money ? opie tell dawgy

You think they pay out of pocket for this shit, this is a drop in the bucket for what they make yearly as a franchise.

[Ralphie Halves]

I don't think that money was well spent. That guy is so bad against lefties anymore, you are gonna get 325 good at bats and 200 where you gonna want to throw your remote through the fukkin TV

This. Why is this being ignored?

I will give him credit, he had the 4th highest OBP out there despite this, and a .350 OBP vs lefties last year, so that's good for a table setter, and he's still a plus fielder. The deal is what gets me. That's the kind of money you give a stud player entering his prime that can mash regardless.

I'd bat him second. I'm old school in where I like your speedy Andrus types leading off.

[d2bets]

He was 4th in OBP Last season and best among leadoff hitters. I don't think it's a stretch to say that's he's the best leadoff hitter in baseball. That's worth some good $, especially if you've got it to spend. He's 31 (not 32) but he's only got like 5 seasons worth of games played. I think he's a better overall play than Ellsbury who got $22m more.

[EaglesPhan36]

All these guys are drastically overpaid, funny that people will blast one team over another when they are all basically spending shit on players that won't perform for the money they are being paid. Apparently teams have to learn for themselves that paying 30+ year old players a shit ton is a bad investment.

Choo has a good OBP last year and generally, but damn the guy strikes out a lot.

[opie1988]

It is a good signing, he's an on base machine. Double Digit homers from lead off
Good glove.
2nd in the league in walks.
6.0 WAR, O/WAR 6.4 third best in the majors
WPA/LI+ is third best in the majors

Bang.

Nash gets it.

[gryfyn1]

All these guys are drastically overpaid, funny that people will blast one team over another when they are all basically spending shit on players that won't perform for the money they are being paid. Apparently teams have to learn for themselves that paying 30+ year old players a shit ton is a bad investment.

Choo has a good OBP last year and generally, but damn the guy strikes out a lot.

I dont know what you mean by overpaid. Teams have lots of money and there are very few players worth paying for; the only other option is for owner to pocket millions upon millions, in fact, Jeffrey Loria jettisons anyone on the team making a large salary, rakes in tons of money and is looked at as scum. When people who think these players are overpaid should all be praising him.

As far as giving long term deal to players 30+ years old, well that has become the status quo, teams know they are taking on dead money at the end of these deals, but that has become the price for having to fill out your team with top level free agents.

[crustyme]

what's crazy is he turned down $140 mil from the yankees.

[EaglesPhan36]

I dont know what you mean by overpaid. Teams have lots of money and there are very few players worth paying for; the only other option is for owner to pocket millions upon millions, in fact, Jeffrey Loria jettisons anyone on the team making a large salary, rakes in tons of money and is looked at as scum. When people who think these players are overpaid should all be praising him.

As far as giving long term deal to players 30+ years old, well that has become the status quo, teams know they are taking on dead money at the end of these deals, but that has become the price for having to fill out your team with top level free agents.

Just five years ago or so, $20 million per year was MASSIVE - top scale, something only maybe 1-3 teams would even consider. Now, $20 million deals have almost become normal for guys who are not producing at a clip worj $20 million. Guys like Choo should be getting MAYBE $10 million. Ellsbury worth maybe $7 .... I am just shocked that owners have never taken a stand against this shit and black balled these players who are asking for these mega deals.

[InTheDrink]

Who was the last big free agent position player signing that actually worked out?

Vlad Guerrero?

I honestly can't think of any

[opie1988]

Who was the last big free agent position player signing that actually worked out?

Vlad Guerrero?

I honestly can't think of any

Adrien Beltre has worked out pretty damn well for Texas.

[Naz18]

Not that hard to understand...just need a bit of business and baseball knowledge...

[Chi_archie]

What would Andrew mcCutchen command on the open market? Glad Pirates had foresight to lock him up before he got close to free agency. That deal looks more brilliant every day.

[Naz18]

Just five years ago or so, $20 million per year was MASSIVE - top scale, something only maybe 1-3 teams would even consider. Now, $20 million deals have almost become normal for guys who are not producing at a clip worj $20 million. Guys like Choo should be getting MAYBE $10 million. Ellsbury worth maybe $7 .... I am just shocked that owners have never taken a stand against this shit and black balled these players who are asking for these mega deals.

Your clearly missing the entire picture....you think the owners are hostage...

Baseball revenues are increasing, the entire product is basically the players. so what else do you expect. When business is bad you'll see a decrease in players salaries. If a team is going to "take a stand" and not offer competitive salaries then another team will. The team that took the stand will lose revenue and income. You think the owners are just idiots to hand out this type of money? It's an investment.

Read up on how players become free agents in baseball, it takes a long time, this benefits small market teams from losing their players. So you don't get many quality free agents often. But you get a lot of interesting parties. I'm sure 15 teams would have offered Choo a 5 year $75 mil contract....

[EaglesPhan36]

Yeah he's making $13 mill or so per year and these dikks are making 175% more ... that makes sense LoL.

[stevenash]

Who was the last big free agent position player signing that actually worked out?

Vlad Guerrero?

I honestly can't think of any

He wasn't a postion player Drinker, but Moose was a great, great contract.

Mile Mussina - NYY Yankees
6 years - 88 million
2001-2006

2001: Made each and every start. 34 games started. That's what you are paying for, right? Guey to go out there each and every time he's supposed to get the rock.

Won 17 games in 2001. Stellar 3.15 ERA pitching in AL East, second best ERA that season. Second most strikeouts in the league, 214.
Second in the league in K/BB ratio, second in the league in shutouts and complete games.
Guey not only started every time he was scheduled to throw the rock, guey often finished what he started.

Saved the Yankees asses in the AL division series against the Red Sox in 2001
Yanks down 0-2 in the series, Moose gets the rock in game 3.
Moose shuts down the mighty Red Sox line up tossing 7 shutout innings, Yanks win game 1-0, Yanks become first team ever to come back from 0-2 in divison series to win series.
No Moose, no World Series for Yanks that year.
I am not worthy.

2002: Makes a 33 starts. Two years in a row now Moose has made every start.
I'll say it again, big part of a big time contract is playing every day, in pitchers cases, make every start.

18 game winner in 2002. second best control pitcher that season (1.65 BB/9 9IP ratio)
Third most strikeouts.

Moose was uber-clutch in 2002.
Held hitters to .190 when game tied situations.

2003: Lights out again.
17 game winner
So far, the first three years of the six year contract, Moose has won 17, 18, and 17 games.
Missed one start 2003. He made 98 out of 99 schedules starts in the first three years of contract.

Stellar WH/IP 1.08, stellar ERA, acroess the board rock freaking solid numbers again!

From 2001-2003 the second best pitcher in AL

2004: Made every start until injury forced him to miss three starts at All Star break.
12 game winner.
After missing 3 starts, came back from injury, got roughed up a little bit, but closed out the season like a freight train, Yanks won all five starts Moose made at the end of the season, Moose going 3-0, two ND-Winsi
He still finished with the 4th most K's that season, and among the leaders in control stats again.

2005: Won 13 games, missed one start.
Had to overhaul his game, due to injury in 2004, had to pretty much scrap the 94-95 mph heater, that's down to 90-91 mph.
Had to rely on that devasting overhand curve of his.
All the other numbers were down by Moose standards, but still a little over league average.

2006: After completely changing his game, had a rock solid season.
Won 15. Was second and third in pretty much every category that season.
And on, and on.

Won 20 games in 2008, his last season, but that was a different contract.
Moose was my favorite pitcher of all time.
I cried, I cried real Nashy tears when he won his 20th game in 2008
Never in my life did I see a man more determined to win a game. NEVER!
Oh, Nashy knew Moose was going to win that game in Fenway, and Nashy had a dime on Moose at +130 that game.
Nashy rarely bets a dime, no less a nickle.

Guey was not going to be denied, last game of his remarkable career, last chance to win 20 games, Moose was lights out winning 6 to 2. He won 10 or more games every season in his career after his rookie year, FIRST MAN IN AL HISTORY TO WIN 10 OR MORE GAMES FOR 15 CONSECUTIVE SEASONS.

Real Nashy tears he cried.

Listen up!
Most 100 million dollar contracts are failures!

Moose got 88 million, won 100 games as a Yankee
You got 100 wins for that contrtact ! Only eight other pitchers have won 100 games for two different teams.
With the exception of 2004, he pretty much made every start.
Beyond Mr. Reluable
He missed 7 starts in 6 seasonss.

Beyond Mr. Dependable too.

Was beyond clutch too.
Don't let anybody tell you different, Moose was very clutch.
I told you about the ALDS game.

Moose performed one of the greatest, if not THE greastest CLUTCH pitching performances of all time.

2004: AL Championship Series.
Game 7 ALCS
Game 7 people! The ultimate game, the payoff game, the win or go home game, the game that seperates the gueys from the nanci's.
The game that says, "are you man enough, if not, go the phuck home maggot"

Game 7 - Yanks / Red Sox, as big as it gets.
Yanks getting beat up and beat down.
Red Sox 4 Yankees 0

Moose enters the fourth inning as a reliever
Never before in his life has he come out of the 'pen.
Sox got first and third, NO OUT, they are ready to blow this thing sky high.
Moose comes in, strikes out Varitek with one of the most devastating overhand curvevballs anybody ever threw.
One out, first and third, up comes Johnny Damon, gets Damon to hit a weak ass grounder to Jeter.
6-4-3 DP !
Moose gets out of it. MOOOOOOSE !

With the excetpion of a Nomar single, and a Manny single, Moose shut the Red Sox down and out out of the pen, matching Pedro that game pitch for pitch and then some.

That game was as good as it gets.

Boone gets the credit for winning that game with the walkoff bomb.

Moose saved that game, saved the Yankees season and asses in the fourth inning, without that fourth inning, there never would have been the Boone walkout.

You want to tell me Moose is not Hall worthy, go for it, have at it, you ain't convincing me.

What he did in a PED era, what he did pitching clean to hitters juiced up to the sky was remarkable, I don't have to tell you the numbers, they are out there, they speak for themselves.

Moose earned every penny of that Yankee contract, oh sure, some of you put off by his "I could explain it to you, but it'll just go over your head" attitude. But he was never a jack off, ptiched the game the way it was supposed to, and the very few that really know him will tell you he's a real good guey.

Moose was always my guey, even when he was shutting down my favorite team as an Oriole, and is, in my eyes a sure fire Hall of Famer, and you can not tell me different

[wagerjunkie]

Who was the last big free agent position player signing that actually worked out?

Vlad Guerrero?

I honestly can't think of any

as far as 7 + year contracts go? guess Jeter..

[wagerjunkie]

He wasn't a postion player Drinker, but Moose was a great, great contract.

Mile Mussina - NYY Yankees
6 years - 88 million
2001-2006

2001: Made each and every start. 34 games started. That's what you are paying for, right? Guey to go out there each and every time he's supposed to get the rock.

Won 17 games in 2001. Stellar 3.15 ERA pitching in AL East, second best ERA that season. Second most strikeouts in the league, 214.
Second in the league in K/BB ratio, second in the league in shutouts and complete games.
Guey not only started every time he was scheduled to throw the rock, guey often finished what he started.

Saved the Yankees asses in the AL division series against the Red Sox in 2001
Yanks down 0-2 in the series, Moose gets the rock in game 3.
Moose shuts down the mighty Red Sox line up tossing 7 shutout innings, Yanks win game 1-0, Yanks become first team ever to come back from 0-2 in divison series to win series.
No Moose, no World Series for Yanks that year.
I am not worthy.

2002: Makes a 33 starts. Two years in a row now Moose has made every start.
I'll say it again, big part of a big time contract is playing every day, in pitchers cases, make every start.

18 game winner in 2002. second best control pitcher that season (1.65 BB/9 9IP ratio)
Third most strikeouts.

Moose was uber-clutch in 2002.
Held hitters to .190 when game tied situations.

2003: Lights out again.
17 game winner
So far, the first three years of the six year contract, Moose has won 17, 18, and 17 games.
Missed one start 2003. He made 98 out of 99 schedules starts in the first three years of contract.

Stellar WH/IP 1.08, stellar ERA, acroess the board rock freaking solid numbers again!

From 2001-2003 the second best pitcher in AL

2004: Made every start until injury forced him to miss three starts at All Star break.
12 game winner.
After missing 3 starts, came back from injury, got roughed up a little bit, but closed out the season like a freight train, Yanks won all five starts Moose made at the end of the season, Moose going 3-0, two ND-Winsi
He still finished with the 4th most K's that season, and among the leaders in control stats again.

2005: Won 13 games, missed one start.
Had to overhaul his game, due to injury in 2004, had to pretty much scrap the 94-95 mph heater, that's down to 90-91 mph.
Had to rely on that devasting overhand curve of his.
All the other numbers were down by Moose standards, but still a little over league average.

2006: After completely changing his game, had a rock solid season.
Won 15. Was second and third in pretty much every category that season.
And on, and on.

Won 20 games in 2008, his last season, but that was a different contract.
Moose was my favorite pitcher of all time.
I cried, I cried real Nashy tears when he won his 20th game in 2008
Never in my life did I see a man more determined to win a game. NEVER!
Oh, Nashy knew Moose was going to win that game in Fenway, and Nashy had a dime on Moose at +130 that game.
Nashy rarely bets a dime, no less a nickle.

Guey was not going to be denied, last game of his remarkable career, last chance to win 20 games, Moose was lights out winning 6 to 2. He won 10 or more games every season in his career after his rookie year, FIRST MAN IN AL HISTORY TO WIN 10 OR MORE GAMES FOR 15 CONSECUTIVE SEASONS.

Real Nashy tears he cried.

Listen up!
Most 100 million dollar contracts are failures!

Moose got 88 million, won 100 games as a Yankee
You got 100 wins for that contrtact ! Only eight other pitchers have won 100 games for two different teams.
With the exception of 2004, he pretty much made every start.
Beyond Mr. Reluable
He missed 7 starts in 6 seasonss.

Beyond Mr. Dependable too.

Was beyond clutch too.
Don't let anybody tell you different, Moose was very clutch.
I told you about the ALDS game.

Moose performed one of the greatest, if not THE greastest CLUTCH pitching performances of all time.

2004: AL Championship Series.
Game 7 ALCS
Game 7 people! The ultimate game, the payoff game, the win or go home game, the game that seperates the gueys from the nanci's.
The game that says, "are you man enough, if not, go the phuck home maggot"

Game 7 - Yanks / Red Sox, as big as it gets.
Yanks getting beat up and beat down.
Red Sox 4 Yankees 0

Moose enters the fourth inning as a reliever
Never before in his life has he come out of the 'pen.
Sox got first and third, NO OUT, they are ready to blow this thing sky high.
Moose comes in, strikes out Varitek with one of the most devastating overhand curvevballs anybody ever threw.
One out, first and third, up comes Johnny Damon, gets Damon to hit a weak ass grounder to Jeter.
6-4-3 DP !
Moose gets out of it. MOOOOOOSE !

With the excetpion of a Nomar single, and a Manny single, Moose shut the Red Sox down and out out of the pen, matching Pedro that game pitch for pitch and then some.

That game was as good as it gets.

Boone gets the credit for winning that game with the walkoff bomb.

Moose saved that game, saved the Yankees season and asses in the fourth inning, without that fourth inning, there never would have been the Boone walkout.

You want to tell me Moose is not Hall worthy, go for it, have at it, you ain't convincing me.

What he did in a PED era, what he did pitching clean to hitters juiced up to the sky was remarkable, I don't have to tell you the numbers, they are out there, they speak for themselves.

Moose earned every penny of that Yankee contract, oh sure, some of you put off by his "I could explain it to you, but it'll just go over your head" attitude. But he was never a jack off, ptiched the game the way it was supposed to, and the very few that really know him will tell you he's a real good guey.

Moose was always my guey, even when he was shutting down my favorite team as an Oriole, and is, in my eyes a sure fire Hall of Famer, and you can not tell me different

Nasher, you would be a Mussina guy.

[Spoiler]

In this market? How many players are better that are available, and with the # of steals he has added to the equation?

[gryfyn1]

What would Andrew mcCutchen command on the open market? Glad Pirates had foresight to lock him up before he got close to free agency. That deal looks more brilliant every day.

and its move like that, that are driving up the values of free agents, with so many teams doing it the is a dearth of quality guys on the market and those that do command more money.

as far as 100m deals, of deals that we've seen at least 5 years of info there have been 11, 5 of those Arod in 2001, jeter(2001), Ramirez(2001), Cabrera(2008), & Helton(2003) were all well worth the contract, two Zito(2007) Arod(2008) were almost universality panned as disasters before the ink was even dry.

The other 4;
Santana(2008) was excellent untill injuries ended his career 3 years later, but injuries are a known risk and teams assume players with no record of issues have them during the valuation process,

Soriano(2007) outside a brutal 2009 season has been better than most people give him credit for averaging ~3WAR/year despite producing nothing in 2009.

Teixeira(2008) was actually producing well from 2008-2012 and while obviously declining he was another player for lost an entire year to injuries and the injuries leave his future production in question

Vernon Wells(2008) was the only one who looked like a reasonable contract that tanked almost immediately and have been an albatross contract since it was signed.

The concept of massive deals becoming disasters quickly is really a recent phenomenon as MLB teams have tons of money to spend and teams are beginning to wisely lock up young players long term before they can see free agency. So teams are beginning to make more and more risky signings and throwing around surplus cash in an attempt to chase pennants as opposed to pocketing it and buying themselves another private jet.