Poll: Rate SBR's Credibility as a Player's Advocate

[High3rEl3m3nt]

I don't know about you all, but I have enjoyed SBR for two reasons. 1) the community--including all of the knuckleheads 2) I liked feeling that SBR has my back in an industry where players have very little leverage.

SBR rates books and I think it's fair that the community rates SBR, based upon past, current, and personal experiences--in terms of player advocacy. Sometimes companies forget what their primary product or purpose is and when this occurs, they collapse. I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine who was discussing how the company that he works for, listens and prioritizes the marketing department over all of the other departments, including the product development department, which is the cornerstone of the company. Essentially, because of this value system over the years, the company has done a tremendous job marketing the shit out of a horrible product and they're likely nearing the end. Perhaps there are some lessons to be learned for SBR.

Anyhow, rate SBR based upon their primary purpose as fairly as possible.

[samgurt]

The fact that a lot of books care what rating SBR gives them, makes me like SBR. Without SBR, every book would go and do anything they wanted...obviously sometimes shit happens that they can't control (BetIslands). The fact that some employees of SBR still had $ in their accounts with BetIslands shows that they didn't plan on them stealing everyone's money

[capitalist pig]

I gave them a B, because I know they have helped players that have been screwed over by the industry. Had the BI fiasco not happened I would have given them a A, although we still need all the details about it.

later

[Conan]

I have not had any negative experiences personally i use only A rated books and have had no trouble i have heard of issues most recently BI where others feel they have bean lead astray. I know of stories of others as well who have bean both helped and not helped by SBR but overall a company that works with a largely unregulated often illegal (US) industry i believe they do a solid job in making things better than a crap shoot.

[hels]

The fact that a lot of books care what rating SBR gives them, makes me like SBR. Without SBR, every book would go and do anything they wanted...obviously sometimes shit happens that they can't control (BetIslands). The fact that some employees of SBR still had $ in their accounts with BetIslands shows that they didn't plan on them stealing everyone's money

This is wrong on so many levels. Do you think SBR is the only reason books don't steal everyone's money? No.

There are honest and credible books because they run a proper business and make money doing so. Why would they do 'anything they wanted' when they know that there are hundreds of sports betting forums (around the world) and word would get out.

SBRs original principle was being a watchdog. Now they are a business and have a main priority of making money. SBRjohn said that members ratings are the biggest reason for book ratings (hence him blaming sbr members for putting too much trust in BI and because of members ratings having to up SBR book ratings).

[The Kraken]

Regardless of the outcome I like this thread. Honestly I think sbrjohn will be interested in the results as well. Every successful business needs feedback. Now we get to grade the grader. Well done, elementer.

I just hope people will give an honest grade as opposed to using this as part of their witch hunt against SBR or try to skew the results simply to funny or cute.

edit: with that said, I gave them a D. Mainly because you specifically used the word credibility. Had you asked how I felt they have graded books in the past and even currently, I would have given them a B, because I do feel they get it right most of the time.

however, how can there be any credibility when SBR takes money from these affiliate books each month and then proceeds to also be the one to rate them. And to muddy the waters even further, they accept monies from players to go "pro". And then also arbitrate between the two sides, both of whom they've now accepted money from.

sorry but there can't be any credibility in that system.

[High3rEl3m3nt]

Sam, great points. However, what does an A book really mean? Isn't an A rating, in this context, a comparative concept? Though U.S. players can't play at pinnacle, doesn't Pinnacle supposedly set the bar? Is legends really on the same par as 5 dimes and is 5Dimes really on the same par as Pinnacle? Maybe A's shouldn't be given out so frequently, as a B rating could encourage a book to want to become an A book. However, it would be tough to be critical of your sponsors.

[hels]

Sam, great points. However, what does an A book really mean? Isn't an A rating, in this context, a comparative concept? Though U.S. players can't play at pinnacle, doesn't Pinnacle supposedly set the bar? Is legends really on the same par as 5 dimes and is 5Dimes really on the same par as Pinnacle? Maybe A's shouldn't be given out so frequently, as a B rating could encourage a book to want to become an A book. However, it would be tough to be critical of your sponsors.

[KGambler]

I gave them an F. In addition to their complete failure regarding and possible complicity with the BI scam, they still haven't done anything for the players who lost so much. If they start doing some digging or explaining more of what went on, then I could see them attaining D+ in the near future.

[High3rEl3m3nt]

K, what do you think you would have given SBR before the BI fiasco? Just curious.

[paranoyd androyd]

for the final time, SBR is NOT a "player's advocate" site. it markets itself as one with the hope of generating consumer confidence in its "product", which ultimately drives affiliate conversions.. which line their pockets. that's the end game here. always has been. always will be.

the "player" is SBR's profit machine, nothing more. wake up.

[King Mayan]

Higher watch your back!

[CallMeChip]

This may be TL;DR. But it's personally important because I really do enjoy this forum.

I really liked SBR... when I first joined. It was fun, jokes a plenty, great writeups for games, awesome contests, it just all around was enjoyable to comb the forums and read the threads, and especially seeing SBR help people out who had lost money or got an unfair deal somehow from a book. It's like they were doing exactly what they set out to do with this company. Back then (almost 2 years ago) I would have given them an A.

Now I just voted them a C. Since then, posters leaving, the content of recent posting, the amount of classlessness, and predominantly the whole BI fiasco has imploded their credibility in my honest opinion. It wasn't just the loss of player funds or knowledge of a failing book without warning, it was the manner in which it was handled. They say all the evidence was out there, we're not denying anything, but they removed the player sheet that was linked... twice. That seems like trying to hide something to me... The response basically was, "It happened, get over it, if you don't wanna be in our tourneys, contests, etc.. then fine, we don't care, other people will take your place". That was a horrible response to this situation. Damage control is a foreign concept apparently.

The one aspect of this whole thing that I think is irreversible is the response from SBR_John about the status of finding answers for the community. John was asked about giving names of those involved and some specifics and responded that he's not at liberty to do that because his employees have families and kids to worry about and that he was documented as having been held at gunpoint by dealing with some of the people in this industry. I fully understand his concern for the well being of others, and even though I don't know him personally, he has always come across as a bright guy, nice guy on this forum. But the fact that a company claims to be a watchdog or voice for the players, but is scared of the entities they are watching and dealing with? That's a total contradiction in terms. It makes zero sense. The honest truth I've realized is that anyone claiming to be a "watchdog" for offshore gambling, is selling a completely false sense of security because you can't monitor entities that can intimidate you into changing your actions or convictions. I've had a gun pulled on me twice in my life and I almost shit my pants both times, I completely froze. It's one of the scariest things that can happen to a human being. I am not saying be tougher or have balls or any of that bullshit. I am saying don't tout your company as being able to mediate in an industry where mediation is a virtual impossibility replaced by tangible greed, theft, dishonesty, and intimidation.

John mentioned that players, "should only play at A or better yet A+ rated books if they don't want something like this to happen". If that's the case why not just advertise for only A or A+ rated books. Let the other books fend for themselves until they've established the credibility to earn an A or A+ rating, while you give your community only tried and true methods of wagering with a better likelihood of getting paid out and not having money stolen.

I do like this forum, even with all the recent problems, I can still come get a chuckle and discuss sports and things that I love, but as far as spending another dime to get into contests or touted books, or trusting any amount of my actual money to SBR, I just can't do it. If that means staying out of great contests, then I guess I'll just have to relegate myself to forum discussion and point playing, which in my eyes isn't necessarily a terrible thing.

SBR is a great website and fun place to interact with people, but it's viability as an industry affiliate or watchdog has ended imho. Just my two cents.

[High3rEl3m3nt]

Higher watch your back!

Duly noted. Believe it or not, one of the reasons I like visiting here is because of you. It is a very small reason to come here, but it factors in...sort of like a hidden tax. Merry Christmas you half European El Salvadorian!!

[Optional]

Would have been a B at least, but something seems to have happened here in the last few months or so. So C.

Player complaints being shut down without any hearing, or just ignored. Posts deleted left right and center.

It feels like SBR has got worn out dealing with player complaints and is starting to treat us like the enemy instead of allies.

Dozer shutting down the complaint against 5D from Dan Bouton without an investigation leaves a particularly dirty taste in my mouth.

What does Bill Dozer do here anyway? Never seen the guy do or say a positive thing toward players. His MO seems to always blindly go against the player or ignore them. The twisted logic he tried to use to excuse 5D stealing off that guy leaves me thinking Dozer is little short of a crook himself. And at very least bereft of a sense of fairness. Would not trust him as far as I could throw him anymore. Therefore don't have faith in SBR's goodwill anymore.


I do like the forum and competitions etc. But wanting SBR to be on our side is best forgotten, as that expectation will just leave you with the same awful taste in your mouth over and again.

[KGambler]

K, what do you think you would have given SBR before the BI fiasco? Just curious.

Probably C or C-. I thought of them as the best of the supposed player advocate sites, and I have also used their dispute resolution in the past (with mixed results). Even now, if I have a dispute with a book... well, where the hell else am I gonna go?

BI actually wasn't the first time I got taken by a hot new SBR book. I deposited with BetPhoenix, won some money and then they stole $3K from me (long story). I made a complaint and it felt like they were doing everything they could to blame me and clear their hot new sponsor. So I was never terribly high on SBR to begin with, but I did consider them to be a cut above covers and therx. In fact, as bad as they are, they are still a cut above covers. I guess covers is F- or doesn't even deserve a grade.

[Cuse0323]

[lakerboy]

if you play with the proper books you would not need sbr for anything relating to your money.

[High3rEl3m3nt]

Laker, you may have been around the block more times than me, or some of the other posters. How do you determine what a proper book is without forums such as SBR? Please share.

[Inkwell77]

John mentioned that players, "should only play at A or better yet A+ rated books if they don't want something like this to happen". If that's the case why not just advertise for only A or A+ rated books. Let the other books fend for themselves until they've established the credibility to earn an A or A+ rating, while you give your community only tried and true methods of wagering with a better likelihood of getting paid out and not having money stolen.

[ACoochy]

Would have been a B at least, but something seems to have happened here in the last few months or so. So C.

Player complaints being shut down without any hearing, or just ignored. Posts deleted left right and center.

It feels like SBR has got worn out dealing with player complaints and is starting to treat us like the enemy instead of allies.

Dozer shutting down the complaint against 5D from Dan Bouton without an investigation leaves a particularly dirty taste in my mouth.

What does Bill Dozer do here anyway? Never seen the guy do or say a positive thing toward players. His MO seems to always blindly go against the player or ignore them. The twisted logic he tried to use to excuse 5D stealing off that guy leaves me thinking Dozer is little short of a crook himself. And at very least bereft of a sense of fairness. Would not trust him as far as I could throw him anymore. Therefore don't have faith in SBR's goodwill anymore.


I do like the forum and competitions etc. But wanting SBR to be on our side is best forgotten, as that expectation will just leave you with the same awful taste in your mouth over and again.

This.

Can't prove it (yet) but I also noticed the shift in business direction around the same time that dopie prikk began investing in SBR.

No shower could clean the slime that the guy produces imo...

[Mr. Jones]

Somebody above asked a poster what he would have rated SBR before this BI debacle. Don't know about him, but I would have genuinely rated SBR B.....even last Monday morning. By Tuesday evening I rated them F and still do so. Seems rediculous really, however I'm only using SBR's own lead in 24 hour B to F drops. One egregious act is enough.

S*it happens fast boys.

[opie1988]

This.

Can't prove it (yet) but I also noticed the shift in business direction around the same time that dopie prikk began investing in SBR.

No shower could clean the slime that the guy produces imo...

Lethal weapons

[King Mayan]

This.

Can't prove it (yet) but I also noticed the shift in business direction around the same time that dopie prikk began investing in SBR.

No shower could clean the slime that the guy produces imo...

Opie has had dinner with Sbr John plenty of times...

Just like sbr John had dinner with Jon Kreta..

[Mikeyanks23]

this.

Can't prove it (yet) but i also noticed the shift in business direction around the same time that dopie prikk began investing in sbr.

No shower could clean the slime that the guy produces imo...

never happened

[JohnGalt2341]

Is there any source or website that grades Sportsbooks objectively? If there is... I'd like to know what it is because I'm not aware of it.

[darkhat]

i am not going to vote

i am not comfortable with it

i wish there were more choices

[5mike5]

Would have been a B at least, but something seems to have happened here in the last few months or so. So C.

Player complaints being shut down without any hearing, or just ignored. Posts deleted left right and center.

It feels like SBR has got worn out dealing with player complaints and is starting to treat us like the enemy instead of allies.

Dozer shutting down the complaint against 5D from Dan Bouton without an investigation leaves a particularly dirty taste in my mouth.

What does Bill Dozer do here anyway? Never seen the guy do or say a positive thing toward players. His MO seems to always blindly go against the player or ignore them. The twisted logic he tried to use to excuse 5D stealing off that guy leaves me thinking Dozer is little short of a crook himself. And at very least bereft of a sense of fairness. Would not trust him as far as I could throw him anymore. Therefore don't have faith in SBR's goodwill anymore.


I do like the forum and competitions etc. But wanting SBR to be on our side is best forgotten, as that expectation will just leave you with the same awful taste in your mouth over and again.

this is a GREAT post

i say D...at least now

[JohnGalt2341]

i am not going to vote

i am not comfortable with it

i wish there were more choices

Me either. Right now I feel like giving them an F. But if SBR is the best source there is that would mean every site that grades Sportsbooks deserves an F which is very sad.

[lakerboy]

Laker, you may have been around the block more times than me, or some of the other posters. How do you determine what a proper book is without forums such as SBR? Please share.

if you play with the proper books you would not need sbr for anything relating to your money.

element i did not say you dont need a site like this to get you that info in terms what is an "a" book etc. If you use there "a" book criteria you would not be in trouble because those books are always accountable to themselves and to there players.

[Dirty Sanchez]

My only time I will even comment on this since I had nothing at BI, but I've always put my trust in SBR in directing where I take my business. I always assumed they were the "experts" in knowing good from bad. It seems many people were under that same "assumption" and put their trust in SBR's recommendation of BI. We all know what has happened, and SBR looks bad...REAL BAD. They have lost their reputation, respect, and integrity. Even more importantly, their most precious commodity in their members have been robbed of money, lots of money, and no matter how you look at it SBR looks dirty. I feel really bad for those who were wronged....because nothing makes the sting go away....and commenting in threads or making jokes about it from someone who didn't lose anything isn't cool. I stand with the fellow gamblers who lost their money....and now look at SBR in a different way now and for a very long time to come. I'm disappointed in SBRJohn, Bill Dozer, and the rest who let this happen. Hope all can have a decent holiday if possible

[ouman101]

My only time I will even comment on this since I had nothing at BI, but I've always put my trust in SBR in directing where I take my business. I always assumed they were the "experts" in knowing good from bad. It seems many people were under that same "assumption" and put their trust in SBR's recommendation of BI. We all know what has happened, and SBR looks bad...REAL BAD. They have lost their reputation, respect, and integrity. Even more importantly, their most precious commodity in their members have been robbed of money, lots of money, and no matter how you look at it SBR looks dirty. I feel really bad for those who were wronged....because nothing makes the sting go away....and commenting in threads or making jokes about it from someone who didn't lose anything isn't cool. I stand with the fellow gamblers who lost their money....and now look at SBR in a different way now and for a very long time to come. I'm disappointed in SBRJohn, Bill Dozer, and the rest who let this happen. Hope all can have a decent holiday if possible

Personally, my biggest disappointment has been the way SBR has handled it since BI failed and everything came to front. I lost $2K in the whole debacle but aside from the money. SBR has proven that it really doesn't give a shit about its players. They haven't made a public statement about it, other than SBR John commenting in a few threads. Which personally gave me the impression that he could care less about what happened. He is just worried about how it reflected on SBR and that is the only reason he is sorry it happened. There are still plenty of positives about SBR, but you have to realize you can't trust them anymore than the books we're betting against.

[darkhat]

I'm not voting because there's no option for an A+

[InTheDrink]

I'm not voting because there's no option for an A+

[hels]

A has the least amount of votes after 73.



Until 7redsports is an A+ book no one will respect SBR book rankings.