Is there any real skill at all to poker?

[bettilimbroke999]

The more I play the more I think its just whoever gets the cards and the only winner is the house grabbin about four bucks out of each and every pot with no risk

40 hands an hour the house wins 160 bucks risk free while everyone else of about equal ability fights to try and break even while losing a net 160 an hour

Im starting to think tournaments are where its at, at least you pay your fuckin fee up front 50 dollar buyin 5 rake for instance and you are done having the house rob you, you get 30 players in a tourney that takes 4 hours and the house robs 200 for dealing instead of 640 at your typical cash game

[DudleyDawson]

The skill part is minimizing your chances of becoming unlucky.

[JayLA]

It is about what cards fall but
There's skill in getting max value when you have your opponent beat, and getting the most out of a bluff.

[soul786]

The skill is less in how the cards fall, and rather in how you play them. I can use 'skill' in order to make you fold, read your tells, follow your pattern of play, or I can be lucky and bet every hand I deem to be strong and hope that carries me through.

The skill lies in 'how' you play rather than 'what' you play

[mynameismud]

absolutely, there is a ton of skill in poker. it is considered a game of skill, not luck. if someone plays abc poker, than yes, it all come down to the cards, but when you play your position right, and you play the player right, 6 2 off suit can be played like kk. aggression in poker is a learned behavior and takes meticulous skill.

[bettilimbroke999]

The skill is less in how the cards fall, and rather in how you play them. I can use 'skill' in order to make you fold, read your tells, follow your pattern of play, or I can be lucky and bet every hand I deem to be strong and hope that carries me through.

The skill lies in 'how' you play rather than 'what' you play

If you are playing a player with position (sitting on his left) or a player that is clueless and just giving his money by playing such a consistent strategy this is fine but the majority of the time you dont know if the guys got a hand and slow playing, on a draw (and what odds to give him bc you dont know what kind of draw, hell even a pair against a higher pair is effectively a two pair or set draw) or bluffing you etc. Many draws like straight draws with 32% chance of hitting or flush draws with 36% are good enough chances to make a pot size call especially when considering implied odds if they hit. These are all just random guesses unless you have a perfect historic read on the player which is rare in a random online game or casino game against strangers. What generally takes place is playing mostly players of relatively similar skill (some a little better some a little worse) which most encounter in online cash games or at the bigger casinos and the skill element seems to be greatly negated

[beermankirk]

nope. confirmed at 2012 SBR bash. SBR Lou made final table.

[yahoonino]

skill my ass,, i went in with the best hand,,and loose ,,the guy cach the flush on the river,or hold a pair of 22 and flop a set,,,this game it 30 perc skill and 70 perc luck,,,dont try to convinci me otherwise

[yahoonino]

i was playing in a tourney ,where the guy was short stack ,and he shove with 7-2 off,,, guess what happen,,flop 772 ,it that skill ????

[bettilimbroke999]

absolutely, there is a ton of skill in poker. it is considered a game of skill, not luck. if someone plays abc poker, than yes, it all come down to the cards, but when you play your position right, and you play the player right, 6 2 off suit can be played like kk. aggression in poker is a learned behavior and takes meticulous skill.

That 62 when you get called down and lose half your stack doesnt feel like kk when your chips are gone but yes if the guy doesnt have a hand or hit his draws (who the hell knows of course) you can play air like gold, keep in mind ppl are loving to try to draw into these big pots and everyone plays the same way trying to set up their opponent, first you win the blinds with 62 then someone flops top pair and wont let it go and u dump a 100 tryin to convince em youve got those kings

[Dutch]

There's skill involved, but it seems like it always comes down to a race like A-K vs. pocket tens or something similar.

[tto827]

i was playing in a tourney ,where the guy was short stack ,and he shove with 7-2 off,,, guess what happen,,flop 772 ,it that skill ????

No, but that is one possible outcome of many. No matter what you had you were no better than a 95% favorite to start, you are going to lose as the favorite sometimes, doesn't mean he made the right play. Luck evens out over the long run, thats why the skilled players are successful.

[mynameismud]

That 62 when you get called down and lose half your stock doesnt feel like kk

of course there will be times that you get called down, people do pick up hands sometimes, but to be a winning player, you have to know when to pick your spots. even the best in the world are wrong sometimes. the guys that make a great living in the poker world, most will tell you you its 60%-40% skill to luck.

[bettilimbroke999]

skill my ass,, i went in with the best hand,,and loose ,,the guy cach the flush on the river,or hold a pair of 22 and flop a set,,,this game it 30 perc skill and 70 perc luck,,,dont try to convinci me otherwise

Exactly, you get aces kings or queens and are nuttin in your britches but just like always a triple BB raise either gets a fold and you win the big blinds (enough for a hamburger at McDs...maybe) or gets a couple callers with hands like pocket pairs and j10 suited or whatever, perfect hands to catch a flop for your minimum bet and then get you in a ****** up posiition when you flop somethin like 894 and think you got a great flop, well j10 suited just flopped a straight and flush draw with a 60% chance of winning or pocket pair just flopped a set with a 92% chance of winning, you go all in and get it shoved a foot up your ass and say wtf did I do wrong, best case scenario you win their 24 bucks at 2/4 nl when they fold on the flop and you've risked your 200 stack in order to win 24 bucks bc the pocket 4s aint gonna call shit if he doesnt flop a set and the j10 suited is only gonna make a reasonable call if he thinks hes got the odds in his favor to get paid if he hits

[Sam Odom]

Once again it is all about MM

poker is worse than sports as for as swings so must be FULLY funded with fat BR to win at poker <--- BUT EVEN THEN you must be the better player at the table most of the time

Tough game

[mynameismud]

also, to be clear...all-in races are total luck. thats why pocket aces only hold up like 71% of the time and they are 220-1 to be dealt to you. i am referring to hand to hand play.

[soul786]

If you are playing a player with position (sitting on his left) or a player that is clueless and just giving his money by playing such a consistent strategy this is fine but the majority of the time you dont know if the guys got a hand and slow playing, on a draw (and what odds to give him bc you dont know what kind of draw, hell even a pair against a higher pair is effectively a two pair or set draw) or bluffing you etc. Many draws like straight draws with 32% chance of hitting or flush draws with 36% are good enough chances to make a pot size call especially when considering implied odds if they hit. These are all just random guesses unless you have a perfect historic read on the player which is rare in a random online game or casino game against strangers. What generally takes place is playing mostly players of relatively similar skill (some a little better some a little worse) which most encounter in online cash games or at the bigger casinos and the skill element seems to be greatly negated

Let me give you an example of what skill is involved with:

Skill in poker is knowing the game and how to use every advantage you have to come out on top. So, if I know I'm on the button with A10, my skill as a poker player tells me I HAVE THE ADVANTAGE and I should use it to milk the table. An unskilled player does not know about position, does not know about probabilities, does not understand the likelihood of playing a player rather than the cards.

If you keep saying the luck is in the cards, whether you hit the river, make the straight, close a flush, flop a set etc etc, then what if I told you, I could read you, watch your face twitch when you had a strong hand, but made you fold because the flop+turn MAY have closed my straight. I may not have that straight, yet I may bet, and bluff you into folding your pocket pair.

Whether or not the person gets bluffed or not, IT TAKES SKILL to identify those perfect times where bluffing is the right thing to do.

[RudyRuetigger]

obviously it depends on whether i win or not as to whether its luck or skill

[Sam Odom]

also, to be clear...all-in races are total luck.

not true... the fact you gave a % is proof

just cant allow the times that the % are against you BUST you out of the game

[mynameismud]

not true... the fact you gave a % is proof

just cant allow the times that the % are against you BUST you out of the game

i meant once cards are flipped up and both guys are standing up waiting for the flop...nothing more can be done as far as skill. just gotta watch the flop and hope you win the hand.

[Ghenghis Kahn]

40 hands an hour

this is the reason why i would never play live poker unless i want to kill time or in the mood to watch paint dry.

[Sam Odom]

GK

I know many retired military (remember this is San Diego) who play 6-8hrs a day 5x week

They usually play 3/6 limit

[matt777s]

No, but that is one possible outcome of many. No matter what you had you were no better than a 95% favorite to start, you are going to lose as the favorite sometimes, doesn't mean he made the right play. Luck evens out over the long run, thats why the skilled players are successful.

Correction. You are NEVER better than a 82% favorite pre flop.

[matt777s]

also, to be clear...all-in races are total luck. thats why pocket aces only hold up like 71% of the time and they are 220-1 to be dealt to you. i am referring to hand to hand play.

There is only short term luck. I'll take the 71% win rate.

[mynameismud]

There is only short term luck. I'll take the 71% win rate.

obv so would would i every time. it amazes me that players get so surprised that their AA was busted by someones rags. some players think AA are unbeatable and that cant be further from the truth.

[JayLA]

obv so would would i every time. it amazes me that players get so surprised that their AA was busted by someones rags. some players think AA are unbeatable and that cant be further from the truth.

Of course. A hand is at least 5 cards not 2. AA was only a pair before the texas holdem boom.

[milwaukee mike]

nope. confirmed at 2012 SBR bash. SBR Lou made final table.

didn't you knock me out of that tourney with 20 left by hitting a ONE OUTER for 20,000 chips?

sorry if it was someone else, my memory is terrible but i know it was one of the "beer" guys and not beerdog

[pokernut9999]

Sit down and play with 5 pros and let me know how you come out.........

You will lose your ass no matter what cards you get.

[Sam Odom]

9999 , how's Blacky doing ?

[milwaukee mike]

Sit down and play with 5 pros and let me know how you come out.........

You will lose your ass no matter what cards you get.

over the course of a million hands, yes.

but most sessions don't last that long


almost all poker "pros" go bust, even the ones that took huge sponsorship/endorsement deals

at the low limits, poker is pretty unbeatable, if you're playing $2/4 limit and lose $10/hr in rake, that is not going to be made up over the long run.

[tto827]

Correction. You are NEVER better than a 82% favorite pre flop.

I figured it was closer to 75-80% but didn't want to underestimate it, thanks for the actually number. I feel like there has to be times you are better than 82% though. http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-tool...r/texas-holdem AA covering the suits of 27 is an 88% fav according to this.

[High3rEl3m3nt]

The skill is less in how the cards fall, and rather in how you play them. I can use 'skill' in order to make you fold, read your tells, follow your pattern of play, or I can be lucky and bet every hand I deem to be strong and hope that carries me through.

The skill lies in 'how' you play rather than 'what' you play

This is half true. Poker is a game of decisions. While it is important to make correct decisions on how to play cards, it is also important to decide which cards to play. Low to mid suited connectors are absolute killers in cash games and if you skip over these and other high value hands, you're missing out on quite a bit of opportunity. With these hands, you'll either flop bad and get rid of them, or you'll flop strong and have the potential to win a very very large pot against someone with better cards pre-flop. There's a reason strategists state that with premium hands, you're likely to win a small pot or lose a big one.

There are so many variables to take into consideration in every facet of poker, which makes it one of the greatest skill games of all time. It's chess on steroids if you want it to be.

[TheCentaur]

Long story short, poker is mostly skill in the long run except for at SBR poker where it's luck.

I was playing against one of the better players on here one hand not long ago. I flop a straight with 7 5 (3 4 6 two hearts). I bet half the pot, the unnamed SBR pro calls. Turn is a blank. The pot is approx 54 I bet 51 and then have about 50 chips left. The river is a heart, the card I didn't want to see.

I check, anonymous pro puts me all in, I think he may have hearts but how could a good player call with a heart draw getting around 2 to 1 with not even 3 to 1 implied so I had to call. He turns over KJ of hearts for a flush. He knew a K or J was no good so a naked heart draw is what he had until the river.

Check in Sinmiedo

[hels]

Compare poker to blackjack for a minute. If you play perfect basic strategy in blackjack you will lose ~50.5% (depending on house rules). If you play perfect basic strategy and count cards you may win ~50.5% of the time. If you're an emotional drunk who believes they are card dead probably loses 55-60% of the time.

Think about players on tilt who are playing every hand ultra-aggressively and can't fold with Ace high. Yes they will hit their miracle 1 outer on the river less than 2% of the time but the vast majority of the time they are merely feeding the pot.

If you read poker 101 for dummies (not an actual book) and use all the information at a Friday night table (all types of players) you will probably break even or better in the long run.

[TheCentaur]

poker is worse than sports as for as swings

No way pal