The Theory of Line Moves--Is it All a Bunch of Hooey

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  • TGoat
    Restricted User
    • 08-07-09
    • 612

    #1
    The Theory of Line Moves--Is it All a Bunch of Hooey
    Late line moves, early line moves, opening line moves, closing line moves. I've looked at every kind of line move imaginable, for both the NBA, NCAAB, NFL, NCAAF, NHL and MLB. I've looked at hundreds and hundreds of games--maybe thousands.

    I've looked at RLM, reverse RLM, steam and reverse steam. You name it I've studied it, put it in spread sheets, whatever.

    Conclusion:

    I have found no conclusive evidence that any type of line move be it early, late, middle, opening, closing, RLM, reverse RLM, steam, reverse steam you name it to be of any significant advantage whatsoever.

    Some ideas have shown positive expectation early on only to regress to the mean over larger samples.

    To those who are using it, what they see, and what they do is a complete mystery to me, especially considering the fact that what appears to be some sort of positive line move is completely ignored in many situations.

    It is my contention that bookies move the lines to try and balance their action, and I do not believe the theory that the books know who is going to win the games and then fiddle with the lines in order to attract money to the losing sides.

    Books are in business to make money, and if they mange their stores correctly they should never have a losing year.

    I do believe in smart money, but when and how they choose to bet is a closely guarded secret. Most of the time, in my opinion, they are looking for a certain number and when it shows up--they bet. Whether it be early, late or not at all. It's as simple as that.

    And before anyone says, "well look at how well LakerBoy is doing just following line moves," let me just say that I don't believe for a moment that LB is making his handicapping decisions based solely on line movements. On many days he posts his thoughts about games well before the lines have had a chance to do anything, and for anyone who cares to check, these "pre-game" observations have a very strong track record.

    Many, if not most of his plays are based on sound fundamental handicapping principles and his vast knowledge of the game. What if anything he sees in these mysterious squiggly line manifestations is known only to him. I can see nothing consistent or profitable in his line-movement procedures that I can put my finger on.

    This is absolutely nothing against LakerBoy. I have no idea how he does what he does. It's just that I can't make heads nor tails of it.

    If anyone, anywhere can show me concrete evidence that following line moves has any kind of consistent, positive expectation--in any sport--over a significant sample, I'll do a full mea culpa and eat crow. I would really love to be proven wrong.

    But after spending dozens and dozens and dozens of hours studying line moves of every kind...I just don't anticipate that happening.
  • HoulihansTX
    BARRELED IN @ SBR!
    • 02-12-09
    • 30566

    #2
    You should look at the line moves between 7:30am-9am Pacific, and then look at them 30 minutes B4 the game starts.

    They are a definite indicator of sharp action.

    3pt moves on totals, and 2pt moves on the spread, absent of INJ's, are a clear indicator of large amounts of money coming in on one side.
    Comment
    • williams22
      Restricted User
      • 09-19-08
      • 6134

      #3
      I fully agree here. Everyone tries to read too much into line movements. Why not just focus on the actual teams themselves?
      Comment
      • HoulihansTX
        BARRELED IN @ SBR!
        • 02-12-09
        • 30566

        #4
        Also when lines move a whole point, skipping the half point, are a great indicator of sharp action.

        It's very tough to figure out, and it takes more than a season worth of data to come to a conclusion.
        Comment
        • williams22
          Restricted User
          • 09-19-08
          • 6134

          #5
          Originally posted by HoulihansTX
          You should look at the line moves between 7:30am-9am Pacific, and then look at them 30 minutes B4 the game starts.

          They are a definite indicator of sharp action.

          3pt moves on totals, and 2pt moves on the spread, absent of INJ's, are a clear indicator of large amounts of money coming in on one side.
          I agree there are certain games where the line movement helps, but I don't think you can make decisions based solely on line movement. Also, many games don't have much movement at all.
          Comment
          • scottel
            SBR MVP
            • 10-09-09
            • 1326

            #6
            quit worrying over it also....if u like a side or total , bet it.....if line jumps early who knows if some big outfit is trying to push the nbr one way only to come back and bet bigger on nbr they want....best thing to me is if line looks fishy bet opposite, like Tex and KU tonght.......Tex been struggling and now just getting 1-.......take Texas as my square side says jump on KU
            Comment
            • lakerboy
              SBR Aristocracy
              • 04-02-09
              • 94379

              #7
              Okay so lets give out an example.

              Golden State was in Nj earlier this year and there was heavy action on the warriors as i believe 3 point favorites but the line was moving down(-1.5) instead of gs direction. There was some serious rlm on this game and lots of folks here were convinced NJ was the play. I watched this line very closely right until the closing time. Then bang the line went from gs-1.5 to gs-2. I grabbed GS and never checked the score. I already knew i won. You need to know about the teams for sure but if you think that you can predict events and plan on being a gambler and make some money out of it kiss that theory goodbye. Thats why vegas makes money cause people think they can predict who is going to win. Watching line moves is all part and parcel of the whole package of successful gambling. It isnt the be all but im telling you right now if a line moves against you at the end its almost certain you will lose.
              Comment
              • Gopi-1
                SBR Wise Guy
                • 01-27-10
                • 952

                #8
                Originally posted by lakerboy
                Okay so lets give out an example.

                Golden State was in Nj earlier this year and there was heavy action on the warriors as i believe 3 point favorites but the line was moving down(-1.5) instead of gs direction. There was some serious rlm on this game and lots of folks here were convinced NJ was the play. I watched this line very closely right until the closing time. Then bang the line went from gs-1.5 to gs-2. I grabbed GS and never checked the score. I already knew i won. You need to know about the teams for sure but if you think that you can predict events and plan on being a gambler and make some money out of it kiss that theory goodbye. Thats why vegas makes money cause people think they can predict who is going to win. Watching line moves is all part and parcel of the whole package of successful gambling. It isnt the be all but im telling you right now if a line moves against you at the end its almost certain you will lose.

                Lakerboy, how about that Warriors road game against the Mavs where they only suited up 6 players to play? No Corey Maggette either, but still managed to beat the crap out of the Mavs. Can you recall the line movements on that game? Where did the sharp money went? Thnx in advance!
                Comment
                • No coincidences
                  SBR Aristocracy
                  • 01-18-10
                  • 76300

                  #9
                  Ask how people who followed the late Cincinnati CBB and Celtics line movements feel today.
                  Comment
                  • No coincidences
                    SBR Aristocracy
                    • 01-18-10
                    • 76300

                    #10
                    Remember, sharps aren't always right either. There's room for squares at times, too. I think it's worth taking late movement into consideration, but I wouldn't blindly follow it and expect a 100% rate of return every time.
                    Comment
                    • chrislau86
                      Restricted User
                      • 01-04-10
                      • 924

                      #11
                      Originally posted by lakerboy
                      Okay so lets give out an example.

                      Golden State was in Nj earlier this year and there was heavy action on the warriors as i believe 3 point favorites but the line was moving down(-1.5) instead of gs direction. There was some serious rlm on this game and lots of folks here were convinced NJ was the play. I watched this line very closely right until the closing time. Then bang the line went from gs-1.5 to gs-2. I grabbed GS and never checked the score. I already knew i won. You need to know about the teams for sure but if you think that you can predict events and plan on being a gambler and make some money out of it kiss that theory goodbye. Thats why vegas makes money cause people think they can predict who is going to win. Watching line moves is all part and parcel of the whole package of successful gambling. It isnt the be all but im telling you right now if a line moves against you at the end its almost certain you will lose.
                      Hey LB, can you explain why the line was moving down instead of in GS's direction? Wouldn't that encourage more action on GS from the public? Just trying to learn more here
                      Comment
                      • suicidekings
                        SBR Hall of Famer
                        • 03-23-09
                        • 9962

                        #12
                        Line movement without a reference point is never going to tell you anything. You need to have some notion of what a fair line for a matchup should be, what other factors may be influencing the game (injuries, rest, etc), and the % of wagers coming in on each side. Then the direction of movement means something. Without it, your historical data is lacking context. Two lines that look similar could have had dramatically different causes.
                        Comment
                        • lakerboy
                          SBR Aristocracy
                          • 04-02-09
                          • 94379

                          #13
                          Originally posted by chrislau86
                          Hey LB, can you explain why the line was moving down instead of in GS's direction? Wouldn't that encourage more action on GS from the public? Just trying to learn more here
                          Well it was a case of sharp money being on New JErsey and yes they wanted mroe action on state but right at the end sharp money came in on state and the deal was closed. I have seen this happen so many times. Trust me when something like that happens i never check the score( no matter what side i am on)i know i already lost or won.
                          Comment
                          • lyon804
                            SBR Hall of Famer
                            • 11-02-09
                            • 6526

                            #14
                            I agree completely with most of this assessment by TGoat in regards to line movement. Some of the sharper action on games the books actually want to disguise. The books love to move lines to create bad action. I see lines all the time that move the wrong way just so the books get more bad action on one side. Line movement alot of times is false movement. For example in the middle of the day watching SBR odds you sometimes will see the board light up on one particular team or one particular total that has absolutely no bearing of the outcome of the game.. I also agree with Houlihans about the line movement skipping over halves and moving a full point. A definite sign of sharp action. Lakerboy also makes a good point about the late action moves being the most real move and indicator of sharp action...


                            This is my favorite move in regards to line movement..... The line that doesn't move at all. I love when I like a particular side or a particular total and I know most are on the other side and the line never moves... Count it jack... you have a winner.
                            Comment
                            • suicidekings
                              SBR Hall of Famer
                              • 03-23-09
                              • 9962

                              #15
                              Originally posted by lyon804
                              This is my favorite move in regards to line movement..... The line that doesn't move at all. I love when I like a particular side or a particular total and I know most are on the other side and the line never moves... Count it jack... you have a winner.
                              Absolutely.
                              Comment
                              • Noles506
                                SBR Rookie
                                • 01-28-10
                                • 38

                                #16
                                Originally posted by lakerboy
                                Well it was a case of sharp money being on New JErsey and yes they wanted mroe action on state but right at the end sharp money came in on state and the deal was closed. I have seen this happen so many times. Trust me when something like that happens i never check the score( no matter what side i am on)i know i already lost or won.
                                Houdini.
                                Comment
                                • pats3peat
                                  SBR MVP
                                  • 10-23-05
                                  • 1163

                                  #17
                                  you need to read this thread by pats http://forum.sbrforum.com/handicappe...line-move.html
                                  more reasons to it than money - like books actually gambling on games - i still need to see that evidence though

                                  does anyone have concrete support on why books like pinnacle bet on games (they obviously take a side sometimes)
                                  Comment
                                  • Quagmire27
                                    SBR Wise Guy
                                    • 09-30-09
                                    • 626

                                    #18


                                    Really, I can't imagine any books trying to trick people by moving or not moving a line. If they expect late money on one side, that kind of makes sense, I guess. The only attention I give line movements is to place some reason behind them, am I missing something ? injuries, weather, etc... If I can't find anything out of sorts with those factors, I know it is moving because of money. I will always believe that.
                                    Comment
                                    • Dark Horse
                                      SBR Posting Legend
                                      • 12-14-05
                                      • 13764

                                      #19
                                      It's a little more subtle than what most people think, but you can definitely lift winning plays right off SBR lines, as long as you know how to correctly read the information. Of course, the chances that people who figured it out will share it with the rest of the world are slim to none.
                                      Comment
                                      • lyon804
                                        SBR Hall of Famer
                                        • 11-02-09
                                        • 6526

                                        #20
                                        Also in regards to line movement nothing is still certain. Sharp action is not always right.Nobody is always right. Take the NBA referee that bet on games.. He had the best information available and was only hitting at 75%. True 75% is terrefic and unworldly, but if you lived in his world and got to know what he knew and see the same things as him. Hell, you would think this guy would know matchups as well wouldn't he..Point is this guy had everything at his disposal and he was not right all the time.I mean who the hell would know better than a referee the outcome of a game.
                                        Comment
                                        • Dark Horse
                                          SBR Posting Legend
                                          • 12-14-05
                                          • 13764

                                          #21
                                          Comment
                                          • pats3peat
                                            SBR MVP
                                            • 10-23-05
                                            • 1163

                                            #22
                                            P.S I also think that if you read the patterns that you can be able to tell if your play is in the right direction or if its better to hedge/stay off a play you already were thinking about. Simply making the play because some sort of movement i dont think is easy at all to pull off

                                            I am curious to figure out 3 point line moves in NCAAB - does this mean anything in particular - i heard from someone they believe a 3 pt instead total move or w/e is a real good sign - i want evidence, ty.
                                            Comment
                                            • Quagmire27
                                              SBR Wise Guy
                                              • 09-30-09
                                              • 626

                                              #23
                                              My conspiracy

                                              The early moves are sharp players who hit a decent percentage of their bets.

                                              The late moves are sharper players with inside info, communicated to them directly from the site of that match.
                                              Comment
                                              • Gopi-1
                                                SBR Wise Guy
                                                • 01-27-10
                                                • 952

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Quagmire27
                                                My conspiracy

                                                The early moves are sharp players who hit a decent percentage of their bets.

                                                The late moves are sharper players with inside info, communicated to them directly from the site of that match.


                                                Word!
                                                Comment
                                                • scottel
                                                  SBR MVP
                                                  • 10-09-09
                                                  • 1326

                                                  #25
                                                  02/08/2010 8:48 AM EST

                                                  +361-42002/08/2010 9:23 AM ESTORLANDO MAGIC -8
                                                  +373-43502/08/2010 9:27 AM EST

                                                  +361-42002/08/2010 9:28 AM EST

                                                  +373-43502/08/2010 9:35 AM ESTORLANDO MAGIC -8.5


                                                  02/08/2010 9:37 AM EST

                                                  +404-47502/08/2010 9:43 AM EST

                                                  +373-43502/08/2010 9:44 AM EST

                                                  +404-47502/08/2010 9:53 AM EST
                                                  194+397-46502/08/2010 9:57 AM EST

                                                  +360-46002/08/2010 10:35 AM ESTORLANDO MAGIC -9
                                                  +400-50002/08/2010 11:35 AM ESTORLANDO MAGIC -9.5


                                                  02/08/2010 2:05 PM EST
                                                  194.5

                                                  02/08/2010 2:37 PM EST

                                                  +425-550
                                                  thoughts on this one? ORL at 8 at 930 then up 1/2 then up another 1/2 and finally another 1/2 at 1130 and sitting there all day/////////up 1- in 2 hrs then nothing....mean anything or not?
                                                  Comment
                                                  • pats3peat
                                                    SBR MVP
                                                    • 10-23-05
                                                    • 1163

                                                    #26
                                                    im tryin to figure out that move too, money or some info what is it
                                                    Comment
                                                    • texhooper
                                                      SBR Posting Legend
                                                      • 01-05-09
                                                      • 10001

                                                      #27
                                                      we'll know in about 40 minutes.

                                                      edit--hopefully
                                                      Comment
                                                      • phillybadboy
                                                        SBR Hall of Famer
                                                        • 12-11-09
                                                        • 9383

                                                        #28
                                                        he he he he he
                                                        Comment
                                                        • HoulihansTX
                                                          BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                          • 02-12-09
                                                          • 30566

                                                          #29
                                                          What needs to be understood is that some books like to gamble.

                                                          Pinny/ Matchy/ And the Greek in terms to Basketball will many times not move a line, b/c they are confident in their number. No matter if they are heavy on one side of their ledgers.

                                                          If you can determine when a book is gambling, you will win a great majority of your bets.

                                                          It looks as though the books are gambling on the Spurs side. Lakers getting majority of the money, but books move the opposite way. I dont think it was the Bynum news either.
                                                          Comment
                                                          • TGoat
                                                            Restricted User
                                                            • 08-07-09
                                                            • 612

                                                            #30
                                                            Interesting ideas from a lot of people, a lot of theories, a lot of speculation, but no one has shown any concrete evidence.

                                                            If anyone thinks three point moves or one point moves are the road to Nirvana then do a study over a couple of hundred games and report back. I think you might be in for a surprise.

                                                            I've studied this stuff folks over hundreds and hundreds of games. Opening moves, 3 point moves, reverse moves, late moves, etc., etc., etc. You name it, I've looked at lots of it. Every single theory falls flat.

                                                            And by the way, if it following line moves works for the NBA then it would most certainly work for CBB too wouldn't it? I mean if it doesn't, then why doesn't it? Does smart money bet differently for college ball?

                                                            College ball should present even greater opportunities. How much do people really know about Hofstra and Old Dominion? Anyone specializing in those obscure leages, conferences and teams should have a gigantic edge and that edge should reveal itself in line moves. There isn't as much money bet in college ball, so it would take less money to move the lines, or one would think.

                                                            Sharp money, professional money, wins from 55 to 59% of the time--long term. This means it loses well over 40% of the time. It's really very difficult tracking this stuff to find a long term edge--if there even is one.

                                                            As I said before, I've found things that were winning at a 60% clip, and I got really excited about them only to have that percentage come down drastically over a longer time frame.

                                                            Large or even moderately sized samples have a tendency to dispel short-term ideas.
                                                            Comment
                                                            • pats3peat
                                                              SBR MVP
                                                              • 10-23-05
                                                              • 1163

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by HoulihansTX
                                                              What needs to be understood is that some books like to gamble.

                                                              Pinny/ Matchy/ And the Greek in terms to Basketball will many times not move a line, b/c they are confident in their number. No matter if they are heavy on one side of their ledgers.

                                                              If you can determine when a book is gambling, you will win a great majority of your bets.

                                                              It looks as though the books are gambling on the Spurs side. Lakers getting majority of the money, but books move the opposite way. I dont think it was the Bynum news either.
                                                              does anybody know why they fkn gamble though
                                                              they already have an advantage. cant be as simple as they think one side is stronger.

                                                              if they do gamble because they are really smart or something - how good are their records in their picks - i don think youd find an edge
                                                              Comment
                                                              • HoulihansTX
                                                                BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                                • 02-12-09
                                                                • 30566

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by pats3peat
                                                                does anybody know why they fkn gamble though they already have an advantage. cant be as simple as they think one side is stronger. if they do gamble because they are really smart or something - how good are their records in their picks - i don think youd find an edge
                                                                The guys at The Greek make the openers offshore for basketball, so yes they are smart. They are actually the Sharpest book in terms to Baskets.
                                                                Comment
                                                                • pats3peat
                                                                  SBR MVP
                                                                  • 10-23-05
                                                                  • 1163

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by HoulihansTX
                                                                  The guys at The Greek make the openers offshore for basketball, so yes they are smart. They are actually the Sharpest book in terms to Baskets.
                                                                  then whats their record,
                                                                  why dont u follow every sharp play they have
                                                                  (yea i know greek makes the bball lines)
                                                                  Comment
                                                                  • TGoat
                                                                    Restricted User
                                                                    • 08-07-09
                                                                    • 612

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by HoulihansTX
                                                                    What needs to be understood is that some books like to gamble.
                                                                    What also needs to be understood is that almost all books are always "gambling." There really is no such thing, except on rare occasions, as a "balanced" book. They can get close, but as long as they are within about 10% of being balanced they will make money long term. The rest of the time they "need" a side, but their "needs" will about balance out over the long haul.

                                                                    With $20,000 bet on team A and $18,000 bet on team B they are not really "gambling." If team A wins they collect $19,800 from team B bettors and pay out $20,000 to team A bettors. Result -$200. But if team B wins they collect $22,000 from team A bettors and pay out $18,000 to team B bettors. So they are really risking $200 to win $4000. I'd take that gamble every day of the week. Good work if you can get it.

                                                                    Pinny/ Matchy/ And the Greek in terms to Basketball will many times not move a line, b/c they are confident in their number. No matter if they are heavy on one side of their ledgers.
                                                                    How do you know this? Have you ever worked for a book? Have you studied sports book management?

                                                                    If you can determine when a book is gambling, you will win a great majority of your bets.

                                                                    It looks as though the books are gambling on the Spurs side. Lakers getting majority of the money, but books move the opposite way. I dont think it was the Bynum news either.
                                                                    If, it looks though, and maybe are nice ideas, but what is the basis in fact? Do you have any long term data to support your theories. I'm not criticizing. I want to learn. Anecdotal data just doesn't cut with me anymore. I have to see the facts.
                                                                    Comment
                                                                    • tltaylor89
                                                                      SBR Posting Legend
                                                                      • 06-19-09
                                                                      • 19610

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Defiantly factors
                                                                      Comment
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