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To perfectly see a suspensory, a huge reason along with tendons that bandages are worn, look at the picture of the grey horse above and look at his left hind leg. You see that line running down the center from the hock area to the back rear ankle. All 4 legs have one on each side inside and outside. That is what allows the foot to be at an angle in front of the ankle without the ankle falling to the ground. Like a bridge suspension you see. Right?
The tendon is what runs down the back of each leg connecting the back of the knee with the back of the ankle. Not as prominent to see, but you can see them in the picture as well.
If they get inflamed it's like when we pull a hamstring or muscle. It can hurt like hell until it calms down.
This is an answer from several years ago so I want to start with that :
Q # 4292 .
Front wraps?
can you speak on them
angle in ny going way back
Gary sciacca without front wraps is like a 20% clip
he uses them like crazy
A. Fronts on first time is generally a real negative just as fronts off is a real positive. But... some trainers , not a lot but some run every horse in them. Never understood that . It goes against all common logic but they do it and plenty are decent % outfits.
There are two solid reasons why fronts need to be worn. First, if a horse runs down, which is when they get friction burns from running on dirt due to their individual angle in which the foot hits the ground and the angled ankle lands. You find those types either with a flaw in their conformation which is not as common as the other reason which is that they have an ongoing problem they are trying to run through that causes them to shift weight off of one area and onto another creating an imbalance in the distribution of weight. Long story short, they start to run down up front and need the bandages to protect against that friction burn.
The second and more common reason is that they need added support to the tendon which runs down the back of the leg from just below the knee , down to the ankle or the suspensory on one leg or both have been weakened and they are in need of protective support there. Those suspensories are the thin lines you see, one on each side of a front leg that run parallel to the tendon but on the sides instead of the back of the area from below the knee down to the ankle. All of those tendons and suspensories support the configuration of the front leg from the knee to the hoof. ( difficult but not impossible to see on the grey horses front legs pictured above.)
Horses that run with fronts are typically the ones you see scratched on muddy/ sloppy tracks. Running down will worsen on off tracks and the suction will be too severe to risk running a horse with and old bowed tendon or a suspensory problem. If they do run on those tracks, the chances of straining the area become far greater.
Not sure why he runs most in them but not some but those types of % angles are priceless as you well know.
My added response:
But to get to your exact question here would be my handicapping rule of thumb.
Some trainers , not a lot, run darn near every horse in front bandages. If so pay no attention unless they have run poorly since having them on.
When you see a fronts ON 1st time from a barn that only uses them when needed, you have to consider that. Too me it's buyer beware.
If a horse has worn them and runs well, it is not affecting the horses running so don't worry about it.
Fronts OFF can be a positive sign for the horses soundness but not a ton of help for the bettor in that exact race. It's more of an overview of a few races that gives you a better idea.
Where I would definitely pay attention is if the trainer has gone to fronts on several races back and the horses performance is in decline. Usually that means the horse is less than 100%. But for the bettor, that doesn't mean the horse can't win. So you as a bettor can't overthink that. When I handicap and see it, I consider it. But I do not like the horse for multiple reasons and not bet it because of that. If I bet and it losses, sure, I say to myself your an idiot, but it's a little to random, the difference between winning and soreness to have a yes or no play reaction to it. Consider it against the full body of work, race shape, pace, trip expected, etc.
There is a decent chance that the reason the horse is getting soreish is because it is or was giving 100% every race. You have to consider that as well.
While I consider it a negative unless the outfit always does it, you can only use it as one of the many reasons to play on or against a horse.
If the horse is in decline, it's a solid reason to play against. If the horse has won 4 in a row with them, why am I worrying about it?
You can see the dilemma it can cause. Don't make it be any more than one of many pieces of the puzzle would be my advise. And if you play one circuit mainly, remember who does well with them and who struggles with them or does great without them.
I would pin that stat on each individual trainer if I knew them more so than an overall thought.
Hope that helps. Feel free to follow up if I made it too confusing.Last edited by str; 06-02-24, 08:52 AM.Comment -
Now that I have explained ad Nauseum about bandages, try this...
Never consider back bandages . Period. Forget em.
Fronts... see how they have done with them on the form. If they are running well, forget the bandages.
If they are running poorly, consider them.
If it's 1st time fronts ON, it's probably 70% not good and 30% don't worry about it.
Try that and let me know.
But again, it's one tool out of a bunch so don't dwell on it too much.Comment -
[COLOR=rgba(77, 76, 76, 0.9)]Seize the Grey
[/COLOR]
Since arriving in Saratoga, Seize the Grey has been feeling fresh, which is no surprise given how much our son of Arrogate loves Saratoga!
With yesterday being his first day of training since making the haul to New York, he had a nice and easy jog. This morning, he was asked to slightly pick up the pace and had his first gallop over the Oklahoma track as he prepares for the Belmont Stakes this weekend.
Hopefully he doesn't get stuck on the inside !
I love how Chill he is... just taking in the sights before going to work
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[COLOR=rgba(77, 76, 76, 0.9)]Seize the Grey
[/COLOR]
Since arriving in Saratoga, Seize the Grey has been feeling fresh, which is no surprise given how much our son of Arrogate loves Saratoga!
With yesterday being his first day of training since making the haul to New York, he had a nice and easy jog. This morning, he was asked to slightly pick up the pace and had his first gallop over the Oklahoma track as he prepares for the Belmont Stakes this weekend.
Hopefully he doesn't get stuck on the inside !
I love how Chill he is... just taking in the sights before going to work
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Belmont Stakes
Post, Horse, Morning-Line Odds
1. Seize the Grey, 8-1
2. Resilience, 10-1
3. Mystik Dan, 5-1
4. The Wine Steward, 15-1
5. Antiquarian, 12-1
6. Dornoch, 15-1
7. Protective, 20-1
8. Honor Marie, 12-1
9. Sierra Leone, 9-5
10. Mindframe, 7-2
Well at least the inside horse of STG wont bare out and hit him!
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STR sir, would like opinion on jockey change on Sierra Leone. Some would argue that Prat is a better jockey. I think Tyler has done a great job.Comment -
Both riders are VERY good. Tyler would never had been on Sierra Leone in the 1st place if Brown didn't think that. What confuses me a bit, and I am not 2nd guessing Chad, but more wondering, .. we all expected Sierra Leone to lug in through the stretch. He has done it enough for us to know that. Chad expected it, and gave direct instructions to Tyler to have the stick in his left hand when they turned for home. But for whatever reason, Tyler had it in his right hand. Once the horse starts lugging in hard, which he was, it is real tough to switch sticks. Often times the lugging in is being fought off with both hands on the right portion of the reigns, which makes it almost impossible to switch at that point without risk of your mount lugging in more.
Now, please don't get me wrong. I am not one of those guys who points to something and says, Chad and Tyler had to know, what were they thinking? That's dumb.
The guys are pros at what they do. So what I am going to say, is not that.
But I am surprised that the bit change which will occur for the Belmont had not already been done. He was in a D- bit if I am not mistaken and that is the most simple and vanilla bit around. It provides no help to lugging in or out. A straight one piece bit like a leather prong bit, a Moyers bit, and several others are there and I am sure hanging in Chads tack room to use to help with the lugging in somewhat. But he did not do that. Why? Maybe he trained Sierra in it prior and did not like the results or maybe he just said, no, I am not changing for the Derby. I get it. But this race, he will have a bit that should at least help somewhat with the lugging in.
A bit is not a cure all often times. Just a little more leverage for the rider to try and keep the horse straight and be able to ride forward more instead of checking from an angle to keep the horse going straight ish.
Also, stick in the left hand will help. Won't fix it, but again, more help. So you do little things to try and overcome bigger things.
I am not at all surprised at this rider switch but I doubt Chad thinks any less of Tyler. He is just trying to make the right choices and that's tough sometimes. Moving forward, you will see Chads real feelings on who and when Chad rides Tyler on other mounts in the future. I m sure he has a boatload of babies coming up with star quality. I would expect Tyler to be on some of those which is a clear signal of Chad not losing faith in him, but simply trying different things to get Sierra Leone to win some of these key races moving forward.
Hope that makes sense Mr.GandT. That's how I see this.Comment -
Hey STR! Just wanted to say good bye my friend. Hope all well with you and your loved ones! I'm done posting on SBR. might tune in occasionally just to stay frosty and keep on top of things. but I did want to say thank you very much again for sharing the wonderful stories and pictures from Bowie Race Track right in our own back yard! I will always save those in my PM's until the website goes defunct!Comment -
Ok, thank you sir. After looking at the form, I really like Sierra Leone's chances. Tyler lost by nose, after two excellent wins, I feel bad for Tyler. Now Prat is on him, I have to think twice. I know I should not let my previous judgement on him cloud my decision.. Will look at the form more and see what else is worth playing... thank you again for your input. As always, much appreciated.Comment -
STR I know you have been talking about the mental aspect of the horse with some previously mentioned horses. thought this was an interesting article on that.
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I am saddened to see this but I do understand. Hopefully everything is fine and some well deserved fresh air is in need.
In the meantime, I hope you check in to THIS thread every now and then. While everyone is always welcome, really good, quality people are always appreciated here. So many of the regulars here are just that. And you are in that crowd my friend.
I might start posting a picture from Bowie here and there just to entice you, Lol. Oh, and those points you sent, I will keep warm for you. If in time, they become worth something again, I will double them for you when you came back.
You are an asset to SBR Da Manster. The privilege to get to know you has been all mine.
All the best to you and your family.Comment -
This is one of the things that made Lucas such a successful mentor of so many top quality trainers.
Being honest, I did not learn that side of things until I had been training a couple of years. It took a horse that I could not figure out at all to show me that angle.
The horses are always talking to you. Sometimes it takes a while to hear them. So incredible when you do and it clicks.
Good read for anyone who appreciates the things that matter much but lurk in the shadows for many handicappers. Honestly, how would a handicapper ever know this angle if they were not made aware of it? And when you see it, it's amazing that it was right there the whole time but hiding in plain sight. So very cool when you see it.
Thanks Batt !Comment -
STG still happy, looks good! Hopefully he continues to improve.
on a side note, Why the 10 horse has lower odds than the 1 beats me.... both ran on Derby day... and look at the fractions of the race :mind frame 24, 49 113 143 and now picks up 8 pounds STG 22 44 109 135 and still had gas in the tank....Comment -
The morning line was never a factor for me. I get that it’s necessary but with all that is there to factor that is fact, it never left much room for guesses unless they were my guesses. Lol.STG still happy, looks good! Hopefully he continues to improve.
on a side note, Why the 10 horse has lower odds than the 1 beats me.... both ran on Derby day... and look at the fractions of the race :mind frame 24, 49 113 143 and now picks up 8 pounds STG 22 44 109 135 and still had gas in the tank....
Your horse looks happy. Gotta love that.
I’ll be around tomorrow it looks like. Will look at the card and be here to check in.
Good Luck with your race Batt !Comment -
Thanks! Always enjoy your take! travelling to see my parents and enjoy a "triple crown " race... and as chong ( of Cheech and Chong) would say" wholly cheap sh**" I have a horse in the race.... may be the last time I get to enjoy watching it live.... with them ... both getting older... need to enjoy it..... battComment -
Good Luck Batt !!!
My friend and I are going to try and beat what seems like a speed bias today and play the nine on top of the two and eight and a two, eight, nine exacta box.
Good luck to everybody enjoy the race.Comment -
Handicapping mistakes 101
Yesterday, I found myself in the shoes of every handicapper that takes a crack at the card. I had not looked at all prior to, and I got wrapped up in the moment, the pressure(self inflicted), and the decision making that in hind sight was awful and all of us as handicappers go through sometimes. I was playing catch up all day and made some classic mistakes along the way. Thought I would share those with you being as all of us have been through it before.
I start off not realizing there were 14 races. A mistake from the start. Why? Because I know darn well that handicapping is all about being comfortable mentally, confident as well, and sorting through the day logically and diligently from start to finish.
So not knowing anything about the Wilson chute in race one other than it is an left elbow after about 15-20 seconds that I would assume makes the 1 horse 1st or shuffled back depending on it's position I decide to skip the 1st race and create some time to try and get ahead of the card by looking forward some. Probably the only sane decision I made all day. I watch the 1st and see the speed lay 1,2,3 and never change much. Ok. Whatever. Noted.
Second race, inner turf which is usually good to speed I play Todd's horse as it looks like the speed and she runs 2nd. Nice race. 11-1. We played win only and not for very much as we are splitting bets. Just wanting to have fun and beat the game. Tried hard, ran well, good try.
Skipped the 3rd as we had all day and wanted to get ahead of the curve with seeing the form on all the races leading up to and including the Belmont.
Played a win ticket in the 4th on the 1 horse. 16-1. Ran great. Finished 2nd but Baby Yoda ran like a monster and with other speed inside of her, I refused to trust her last race as prior to that, she had been not so formattable. I get that she loves Saratoga but I didn't have her making the lead and there were 2 speeds inside her so I missed her.
So far, two races bet, 2 seconds both nice prices. Grrr. Frustrating.
5th. Inner turf, going to look for solo speed but don't see anyone that stands out. Yes, a couple have speed but I couldn't separate them. We play the 1 to win, 5-1, makes sense so what the heck. We finish 2nd again. Three seconds all at a decent price and zero to show for it. AND, I saw a couple of speeds but the 4 horse who has laid 7,3,6,6,84,7, and 10th at the early call on form catches a flyer leaving the gate and wires the field. And of course, we finish 2nd yet again at 5-1. Not that that is terrible. It happens right. Stay cool, relax. Your doing fine.
And just when I finished telling myself that, they interview the trainer of the winner. Mark Casse. HOF'er, so let's hear what he had to say. He is asked what the instructions were in the paddock because he went to the front and had not done anything close to that on form. His answer was... "I just told the rider to play the gate". She broke great so he went for it and got the first two fractions in 24 2/5ths and 48. From there she repels Irad from the 3 1/2 pole to the 1/8th pole and my 5-1 shot who had a solid trip, comes on to be, you guessed it... 2nd.
Now I would never 2nd guess or question a HOF'er much less, Mark Casse but I will say, that of the roughly 7,000 plus instructions I gave riders , I never said, "play the gate". Guess I should have, Lol.
I mean, it's a given that instructions are for reminding the rider of likes and dislikes for that particular horse and an overview of how the race might set up if it runs according to form early but play the gate? The last time she broke 1st they took her back to 6th early and the last time she laid close, she was 3rd early and finished 7th. So that's when I had a meltdown mentally . LOLOL. I really did. I called my friend and told him I was so pissed off I couldn't see straight. He laughed, then I did, but it did get to me and I let it ruin my day mentally. What a dumb ass !
Skipped the 6th when I was too busy throwing a spoon fit to read the form anyway. Lol.
I need to mention that prior to that I had seen an interview with Chad Brown who was crying about the track favoring speed with the Belmont Stakes 4 hours away. Can't blame him. Been there done that, albeit in claiming or allowance races . Certainly not the Triple Crown races.
But for whatever reason, instead of accepting what was clearly going on, I was resenting it because I really thought Chad would win the Belmont with Sierra Leone. However, the speed bias was going dead against that.
And that's where this story is going. I have no idea why, but I just did not accept the fact that it was a speed day and re adjust my way of thinking. But as Belushi used to say... But Nooooo, and then go off on a tangent while losing his mind. Well, that was me . What an Idiot I was! Hahaha.
In the 7th you know for a fact, Brown will make the lead with the 1 horse and slow it down, having just stated how bias the speed was. So what do I do? I pick the 3 horse to lay about 4th and close. Then, proceed to watch the 1 horse do what I knew he would do, which included carrying the favorite way out on the 1st turn. And totally legitimately and totally smart.
Needless to say the meltdown is now darn near complete. I mean, how did I NOT bet on the 1 horse?
I skip the 8th and the speed falls apart but 21 1/5th and 43 will do that going 7/8ths. So on to the 9th where I pick the 6 horse who runs 3rd at 9-2 and runs well but can't beat the favorite.
I skip the 10th because I don't really care for White Albarrio in that setup and on that track and we all know that Bob will be on the lead. Just rooting for Ricky was enough.
In the 11th we finally broke our maiden and picked a winner. Only 8.20 but at least it was a winner.
In the 12th, the Belmont Stakes, I really did like Sierra Leone. On an even type track, I think he wins. Really thought he was honestly a bit more than probably the best horse. We used Honor Marie and Resilience under him and a small box of all of them. How or why it never registered in my pea brain to not use what we liked and save with the speed in a small 2.00 box is totally beyond me. When there is a crazy bias, and you want to play against it, at least save if the speeds are prices . I mean, come on man, use your head.
Twelve bucks, split remember between my friend and me, was all it took to guard against a speed trap in that race. Bet the three speeds, box them, and forget about it. It wasn't like the speed in the race was not clear. Once you do that, now play your plays. Kind of like insurance right?
From there, we watched the three speeds run 1,2, and out and the exacta pays 326.50.
I've been going to the track since I was 14. I played the card yesterday about as well as I most likely did back then.
It happens to all of us I guess. Sometimes you just can't fight your way out of a wet paper bag. McEnroe screaming " You can't be serious", comes to mind, as do the two old guys drinking the beer, toasting and saying BRILLIANT !
Needless to say, I skipped betting the last two races. That was enough punishment for one day.
We all have to live and learn but the ones that allow frustration to cloud your judgement have to learn again and again, the same things they learned decades ago. Yesterday, color me frustrated , which in hindsight was soooo stupid..
I'll be better next time.
Hope you guys all had a good time playing the Belmont yesterday. It was kind of cool having it at Saratoga.Last edited by str; 06-09-24, 12:36 PM.Comment -
So they ended up, cancelling everything and going back to the way it has been the last couple of years.
IMO, shame on them for even considering it, especially that garbage Clenbuterol, although Depo was just as bad. I refused to use that crap. Only people that needed that IMO were those that ... Ah, forget it.
The beauty is, those need needed it to compete know who they are. And those that did not need it know who they are as well.
"Games on the level. But it's some of the people in it that aren't." Yes sir Mr. Barry !Comment -
you deserved much better with the consistent capping you did str but as you know even that is no guarantee you're going to end up in the black..a shame you couldn't have walked away making at least a few $$
with that effort..definitely had a lot of live horses at very good odds..great job
it is a puzzler what casse said ..possibly he was caught off guard with the question and just said first thing that popped into his mind logical or not ..probably wishes he had it back and said something more relevantComment -
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
White Abarrio, who won the Grade 1 Whitney and G1 Breeders' Cup Classic last year after being transferred from trainer Saffie Joseph Jr. to Rick Dutrow, is returning to the Joseph shedrow after two disappointing races in 2024, according to Daily Racing Form.
After a non-competitive fifth-place finish in Saturday's Grade 1 Metropolitan Handicap at Saratoga, co-owner Mark Cornett of C Two Racing told David Grening of DRF that the 5-year-old son of Race Day is being transferred back to Joseph, who won four of 11 races with White Abarrio from October 2021 through March 2023, including the 2022 G1 Florida Derby.Comment -
We actually had a pretty good day as handicapping goes. You can't always have good days. What bothered me was how badly I lost my composure and concentration. After that interview, it went to zero and stayed there. The other thing in hind sight was that the channels flipped and instead of having Maggie, etc. I was listening to the Fanduel clown show. They didn't even show the fractions early, which is as important as the race setup itself. I got frustrated because of that and never looked to see if there was more than one channel covering it. Never crossed my boiling hot mind which also made me mad, at myself after the fact.
I need to be better. Lesson learned. But Chris Fallina and Paul Laduca? Really?
You might be spot on with Casse's answer. It didn't add up.
Oh well, if you are better for it, you got something out of it. And I am. That won't happen again.
Thanks JBEX.Comment -
Pretty cool you were able to spend it with your folks. Good stuff.
Those cuts should be fine in about a week. Maybe a light antibiotic for a couple days but only if the swelling gets significant. He will be fine it sounds like.
I never went to Golden Gate but certainly do get a track closing down that you grew up with. That's never easy.
Keep us posted on the stable Batt. All the best.Comment -
Those were the days my friend.
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Regarding your derby day Str:
As noted previously I played the Greyhounds daily for 2 decades, a good chunk to provide food for myself and my family.
You stirred a lot of memories with your days recap.
A couple things that jumped back to mind as a young Madison found his way.
1) You've gotta be able to pick them. My lifelong friend and introducer to handicapping greyhounds still enjoys himself telling tales of my infancy when I'd handicap a race and share my thoughts with him. More times than I care to remember he would walk away a winner and myself empty handed.
2) Kind of partly point 1, but once you pick em you've got to figure out how to bet'em. This is still a skill I'm trying to improve in my 70's. Many posts in here lamenting my successful picks and lack of profit. (See addendum).
3) Composure. I'll keep this short, but I have many good qualities but patience and composure took many years. At one point mid career I made the career turning decision that if I lost my composure, I walked out the door. That lasted about 6 weeks, and thereafter a tolerable future. Not to say I didn't have a few moments over the years as if you gamble long enough sooner or later you're going to suffer an intolerable defeat.
Addendum to point 2. This I can't get into to much detail but 40 years ago I had ZERO conscience/fear. I conditioned my mind so rigidly that today I truly suffer from the subconscious condition where my mind freezes and I literally have no ability to bet relative to my means. The best way I can describe it is; 40 years ago I could bet substantial amounts relative to my net worth, and today I am blessed to be very comfortably retired but I am betting sums that are 1/10,000 of my net worth. I asked my wife Saturday why there wasn't such a thing as a gambling psychologist. LOL
There aren't many people out there that can relate to the lifestyle's some of us have lived.
All my best,Comment -
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Thanks STR! First Bay Meadows and now Golden gate... Ugh I know you have gone thru the same thing with the east coast tracks...
Okay a couple of updates:
[COLOR=rgba(77, 76, 76, 0.9)]Seize the Grey Post Race Update
[/COLOR]
Seize the Grey left Saratoga early Sunday morning and arrived back at Churchill Downs. He came out of the race overall in good order, but did have some superficial cuts on his hind legs due to some bumping in the first turn.
We’ll let him settle back in at Churchill Downs before putting together any future plans to ensure he continues out of the race in good order. The plan is to huddle up with Wayne in the next couple of days and we will start mapping out some possible paths forward. There is no doubt in any of our minds that there are some big races in his future, but we won't get too far ahead of ourselves until we have had a chance to let Seize the Grey tell us how he is feeling and work through a plan as a team.
[COLOR=rgba(77, 76, 76, 0.9)]Straight No Chaser Workout Report
https://youtu.be/dMIXOinoftA
Straight No Chaser breezed extremely well yesterday morning at Santa Anita Park, covering four furlongs in :46.80 under jockey Antonio Fresu. Your colt breezed by himself while in hand and galloped out in :59 flat according to trainer Dan Blacker. Our plan remains to target the aforementioned allowance race on June 15th. Entries will be taken on Wednesday.
His work can also be seen here courtesy. This link leads to an XBTV workout hub. To unlock access to professional workouts, please sign up for a free 1ST bet account if you haven’t already.
[COLOR=rgba(77, 76, 76, 0.9)]Visceral Update[/COLOR]
Visceral has remained in good order since his debut and was spotted galloping earlier this week. trainer Mark Glatt has already removed the blinkers. So far he has handled himself well without them and he will continue to train without them for the time being.
Given we have 6-7 weeks until our likely race targets at Del Mar (July 20th 6 furlongs, July 25th one mile), don’t be alarmed if Mark gives him an extra week or two than normal before breezing back. Typically horses will have their first breeze 10-14 days after a race but in this case it is not completely necessary. We’ll leave those decisions up to Mark and will keep you updated once we have more.
[/COLOR]Last edited by batt33; 06-11-24, 03:37 PM.Comment -
Sounds like those hind leg cuts will be just fine. Don't be surprised if they take a little longer ( maybe an extra week) ,to heel than a front leg cut might but they will be fine. Jogging and light gallops actually help speed the healing process with better blood flow to the backend, (furthest from the heart,) so it sounds like he will be just fine sooner than later.
Gotta say that these reports can often times be a bunch of B.S. but I don't feel that at all with these Batt. Everything I have read makes sense IMO. Guess I should have expected that from a "Lucas way" of doing business.
Looks to me, Preakness win withstanding, that in this group, you are getting your money's worth. Seems like a real solid syndicate. Really good for you Batt !
I think that's great.
Thanks for the updates.Comment -
hey str
saratoga has a 7f allowance on 7/20 race that deterministic qualifies for..considering he broke his maiden there same distance first time out you'd have to think that would be an appealing spot ..if his performance is impressive they might consider giving the allen jerkens (7f,G1,3yo) a shot 5 weeks later ..can you see them considering this path if the horse is training well ? being out of a speightstown mare he might be a better 1 turn horse anywayComment
