Horse Racing questions and answers

[cutchemist42]

Just a question about classifying a race as being won by a closing horse or speed horse, do you have any set criteria? Like lengths back at a certain part of the track?

[str]

Just a question about classifying a race as being won by a closing horse or speed horse, do you have any set criteria? Like lengths back at a certain part of the track?

Not set lengths back because a speed ball can open up 5 early and that throws it all off.

Speed is speed. Pretty easy to spot. Closers are wanting to be back mid pack or further. STALKERS, are the ones that will lay 2,3,4, but have speed that can be somewhat controlled. Above that, it not so much controlling it as it is the willingness of the horse to sit behind and, or get some dirt in their face. Pure speeds will have no part of that in most cases.
Wander back through here as I did several long write ups about speed, stalkers, and closers. Pretty far back so start from the beginning. It's not too far in from there.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hey STR I have a question about workouts. What do you think about working out a horse further than their next scheduled start, especially for a pony at first asking. In Race #8 from Tampa today the #5 Narfooska scored at 17/1 (12/1 ML). She was running a 5.5 F race and twice the trainer worked her at 6 panels. Her second move was 2 seconds faster. She also had some of the best breeder ratings in the race according to Brisnet. I do not see this occurring much and am interested to find out what think about it. Thx. (This also happened at Santa Anita recently where a longshot was drilling at 6 F and won a 5.5 F race. Forgot if it was at first asking).

[str]

Hey STR I have a question about workouts. What do you think about working out a horse further than their next scheduled start, especially for a pony at first asking. In Race #8 from Tampa today the #5 Narfooska scored at 17/1 (12/1 ML). She was running a 5.5 F race and twice the trainer worked her at 6 panels. Her second move was 2 seconds faster. She also had some of the best breeder ratings in the race according to Brisnet. I do not see this occurring much and am interested to find out what think about it. Thx. (This also happened at Santa Anita recently where a longshot was drilling at 6 F and won a 5.5 F race. Forgot if it was at first asking).

Hi Easy, good to hear from you.
What you bring up is kind of rare. First time starters rarely need to work 6F if they are going to run 6F. Usually a 5/8ths a couple of times is fine because they gallop out the next 1/8th in about 14 anyway. Also, the adrenaline from the first race carries them a little. Most trainers are good with a couple of 5/8th's and not 3/4"s before a 6F race. Exclusions to that are heavy, thick horses that seem to struggle with lung capacity. They really need to stretch the lungs to get fit. Sometimes the 3/4 work for a 5.5F race can be a bit of a mistake in that the trainer tried to run 6F but the race did not go or they did not draw in , so the next one available was 5.5F and they went ahead and ran in it.
Dulling speed would probably be the biggest worry as the pace early is typically hotter going 5.5F than 6F. So that would keep a lot of trainers from doing that on purpose.
There are a few trainers that will do it a lot, but not many. Don't know if that trainer does this often or not.
IMO it's hats off to the horse for having the agility to win at the shorter distance especially if the horse closed which I would assume it did.
Hope that helps.

Keep up the good work Easy. Always a pleasure to talk to you.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hi Easy, good to hear from you.
What you bring up is kind of rare. First time starters rarely need to work 6F if they are going to run 6F. Usually a 5/8ths a couple of times is fine because they gallop out the next 1/8th in about 14 anyway. Also, the adrenaline from the first race carries them a little. Most trainers are good with a couple of 5/8th's and not 3/4"s before a 6F race. Exclusions to that are heavy, thick horses that seem to struggle with lung capacity. They really need to stretch the lungs to get fit. Sometimes the 3/4 work for a 5.5F race can be a bit of a mistake in that the trainer tried to run 6F but the race did not go or they did not draw in , so the next one available was 5.5F and they went ahead and ran in it.
Dulling speed would probably be the biggest worry as the pace early is typically hotter going 5.5F than 6F. So that would keep a lot of trainers from doing that on purpose.
There are a few trainers that will do it a lot, but not many. Don't know if that trainer does this often or not.
IMO it's hats off to the horse for having the agility to win at the shorter distance especially if the horse closed which I would assume it did.
Hope that helps.

Keep up the good work Easy. Always a pleasure to talk to you.

Thx for the reply. You are correct that the horse closed. She passed about 5 horses and won going away.

[BGboothA]

Crazy that you bring this up easy, I was looking at the same race and our numbers as well and noticed there was something strange about the workout schedule as well. Nice info.

[JBEX]

Hey str...long time since we've spoke..wanted your opinion on this..nothing to do with handicapping..tomorrow at GP R3 #5 Cort is the horse I'm referring to..purchased for 260k as a 2 yo
at the Ocala Breeders Sale last April..by a 2500 stallion so good chance he was a specimen or good bloodlines underneath. They run at Aqu in December and he knocks heads to the pace call and he completely gives it up (6f race, msw)..Returns to GP
last month up for 50 tag and wins by 8.5 lengths and is claimed ( 6f also)..Think the owner's a little annoyed at the trainer for putting him up for sale so early ? Trainer is George Weaver..one of the better ones

[str]

Hey str...long time since we've spoke..wanted your opinion on this..nothing to do with handicapping..tomorrow at GP R3 #5 Cort is the horse I'm referring to..purchased for 260k as a 2 yo
at the Ocala Breeders Sale last April..by a 2500 stallion so good chance he was a specimen or good bloodlines underneath. They run at Aqu in December and he knocks heads to the pace call and he completely gives it up (6f race, msw)..Returns to GP
last month up for 50 tag and wins by 8.5 lengths and is claimed ( 6f also)..Think the owner's a little annoyed at the trainer for putting him up for sale so early ? Trainer is George Weaver..one of the better ones

Have to think that the owner was on board with the decision. My first guess is he has a breathing problem and it will limit him when hooked. Those types get all amped up and displace their pallet, making them stop on a dime. But if solo, they relax that pallet and run well. I might be waaay off on this, it's just a guess, but md. 50 should be a 10 length drop from MSW although Dec. in Aqu. is not the toughest. Probably about a 5 length drop unless the md. 50 was full of weaker horses.
Will be interesting to see if the horse can stay past 6F or if it can stay when hooked. Have to think that n/w 2 at GP will be many lengths tougher than either field he has faced so far.
Weaver is no dummy. Let's see what happens.
Keep me posted and great to hear from you as always.

[JBEX]

Have to think that the owner was on board with the decision. My first guess is he has a breathing problem and it will limit him when hooked. Those types get all amped up and displace their pallet, making them stop on a dime. But if solo, they relax that pallet and run well. I might be waaay off on this, it's just a guess, but md. 50 should be a 10 length drop from MSW although Dec. in Aqu. is not the toughest. Probably about a 5 length drop unless the md. 50 was full of weaker horses.
Will be interesting to see if the horse can stay past 6F or if it can stay when hooked. Have to think that n/w 2 at GP will be many lengths tougher than either field he has faced so far.
Weaver is no dummy. Let's see what happens.
Keep me posted and great to hear from you as always.

He was a vet scratch today..Makes sense to me that a solid trainer like Weaver wouldn't put this horse up for sale unless he's very certain it's not going to win vs allowance types..Whether it's the issue with the flipped palate you described or something different he probably has a good idea where this horse belongs irregardless of what they paid for him..The race he exited at Aqu came up a solid number race
beyerwise ..the winner repeated and wound up being one of the top 3 betting choices in the Tampa Bay Derby..Interested to see how he does down the road..Should also mention that he was entered in an OC50K/SAL50K which is generally an easier spot
than a Alw N1X

[str]

He was a vet scratch today..Makes sense to me that a solid trainer like Weaver wouldn't put this horse up for sale unless he's very certain it's not going to win vs allowance types..Whether it's the issue with the flipped palate you described or something different he probably has a good idea where this horse belongs irregardless of what they paid for him..The race he exited at Aqu came up a solid number race
beyerwise ..the winner repeated and wound up being one of the top 3 betting choices in the Tampa Bay Derby..Interested to see how he does down the road..Should also mention that he was entered in an OC50K/SAL50K which is generally an easier spot
than a Alw N1X

Vet scratch on the track or at the gate or vet scratch in the morning prior to the race getting saddled. What a huge difference it is.

[JBEX]

Vet scratch on the track or at the gate or vet scratch in the morning prior to the race getting saddled. What a huge difference it is.

It was a morning scratch

[str]

It was a morning scratch

Pay no attention to the "vet" part of that scratch. What happens is that if the field size does not allow for a scratch, the horse is temporarily "stuck", meaning the state vet needs to come by the barn the morning of and see the horse and hear about the problem. This will happen in any 7 horse field or less and often times 8 or 9 horses, depending on the wagering tied to that race. ( triple, super, D.D. , etc.). This is the cause for most late scratches that come in around 11AM the day of.
If the trainer wants the horse out, they simply say, fever and treated with mild antibiotic. You do need to treat them though. Or coughing or off feed or whatever. It is very rare that a state vet makes you run. That puts all liability directly on them. In this day and age of everyone absolving themselves of liability, 99% of the time the horse is let out and cannot race for 5 days after that.
There is a great chance that the horse is fine and the trainer will simply shop for a better spot.

[JBEX]

Pay no attention to the "vet" part of that scratch. What happens is that if the field size does not allow for a scratch, the horse is temporarily "stuck", meaning the state vet needs to come by the barn the morning of and see the horse and hear about the problem. This will happen in any 7 horse field or less and often times 8 or 9 horses, depending on the wagering tied to that race. ( triple, super, D.D. , etc.). This is the cause for most late scratches that come in around 11AM the day of.
If the trainer wants the horse out, they simply say, fever and treated with mild antibiotic. You do need to treat them though. Or coughing or off feed or whatever. It is very rare that a state vet makes you run. That puts all liability directly on them. In this day and age of everyone absolving themselves of liability, 99% of the time the horse is let out and cannot race for 5 days after that.
There is a great chance that the horse is fine and the trainer will simply shop for a better spot.

Wow..never would have thunk that..So there's a chance that the horse may not have been ill and trainer just wanted out of the race..still have a hunch they're a little concerned that they may have put this horse up for sale too early based on the way he won..understand he may not be able to do that vs better..we'll find out soon enough..probably one of the reasons he was appealing to claim is he'll be eligible for these types of races for a while if they guessed right about the horse being talented

[str]

Wow..never would have thunk that..So there's a chance that the horse may not have been ill and trainer just wanted out of the race..still have a hunch they're a little concerned that they may have put this horse up for sale too early based on the way he won..understand he may not be able to do that vs better..we'll find out soon enough..probably one of the reasons he was appealing to claim is he'll be eligible for these types of races for a while if they guessed right about the horse being talented

Probably about 60% are just scratches. 35 or 40% might be sick or a sore foot or something minor that might take 2 weeks to get squared away.
Watch the workout tab. No way a truly sick horse works any distance within 2 weeks of a vet scratch if truly sick, like a 101 temp. that came down with mild antibiotics after 1-2 days.( normal is 99 1/5-100 4/5ths depending on what time of day and the individual so 101 and 1/5th for instance, is just a little sick.) It will usually be about 14-17 days before a timed workout under that scenario. Longer if really sick.

[JBEX]

Added him to my stable and will follow for a while..keep you posted when he runs...thanks for the insights

[str]

Added him to my stable and will follow for a while..keep you posted when he runs...thanks for the insights

Yes. Please do.

[Arky]

Sorry if this has been asked before but I'm just getting back into this sport. Is there a free database somewhere online where I can get data on the horses?

I just started playing in the SBR Racebook and am doing quite well but I don't expect that to last too long without some data on horses. With just the odds and the jockey's name, it's dart throwing at its finest...

So, I've come across DRF.com, Equibase and Brisnet but they all want money. Is there someplace where I can get free horse info - even if it's condensed (ala daily program) - online?

TIA

[str]

Sorry if this has been asked before but I'm just getting back into this sport. Is there a free database somewhere online where I can get data on the horses?

I just started playing in the SBR Racebook and am doing quite well but I don't expect that to last too long without some data on horses. With just the odds and the jockey's name, it's dart throwing at its finest...

So, I've come across DRF.com, Equibase and Brisnet but they all want money. Is there someplace where I can get free horse info - even if it's condensed (ala daily program) - online?

TIA

There are at least several guys in here that can tell you much more than I can about this. I do not buy the form or anything daily anymore except on occasion. Hopefully, a couple of the guys will see this and jump in. I was under the impression that Brisnet was free but I guess not. Sorry I can't help you with this one but I am sure some others can. Good luck.

[Arky]

Thanks for the reply. Ya, Brisnet is free to join but they ask for your CC during the registration process and that kinda put me off. Was just wondering if there was some free service everyone uses before I consider paying. I did see that DRF has some packages where you can get 10 daily cards for like $28 and that is not too bad... Was just wondering what the experienced online bettors use....

I used to go to Delta Downs in the late '70's/early '80's. We would make the drive from Houston to Vinton - takes about 2.5 hrs (there was no Sam Houston RP in those days). First time, I went with a couple of buddies and I think among the three of us, only one of us (not me) could read a racing form. On the way, we stopped at a convenience store and I picked up a tout sheet for like $1. Just a one-page flyer. The tout sheet recommended the 2 and 10 for the Daily Double so when I got to the track, that's who I selected. It hit. And I had 3 tickets for about a $140 win. So, I played the rest of the night with house money and left the track feeling "hey, this shiite's easy". Eheh. Of course, that trip was followed by many more and just about all were losers. I remember some very long, drunken drives back home..... I did try something before I walked away/moved on: One night I went by myself and stayed sober the whole time. I hit some exacta boxes and was up over $100. I wanted to leave with over $100, so I left by the 7th race - with more money than I started with...

The above is just an aside - I figured someone would like a good "horse story"....

[JBEX]

with the passing of Allen Jerkens, may he rest in peace, was wondering if you ever had the chance to meet him over your career?? I remember back in the early 90's I used to by a small paperback book called the "pocket trainer guide" sold by a guy named Ed Olmstead who I believe was a Maryland guy..Listed about 3000 trainers and what their most profitable moves were..1st claim,2nd claim, layoff,2nd layoff, sprint/route, etc..At the time ,before the internet,found it a neat little thing to have ..One thing I'll always remember was what they said about Allen Jerkens .. most trainers had abbreviated moves like ones I mentioned before..with Jerkens he said watch for one or more slow 6f+ works approaching the race date..caught him many times when he did this..he was talked about with the highest praise by his fellow trainers and jocks in the form today.. Not only a great trainer but a kind and generous human being always willing to share his knowledge with others

[str]

Thanks for the reply. Ya, Brisnet is free to join but they ask for your CC during the registration process and that kinda put me off. Was just wondering if there was some free service everyone uses before I consider paying. I did see that DRF has some packages where you can get 10 daily cards for like $28 and that is not too bad... Was just wondering what the experienced online bettors use....

I used to go to Delta Downs in the late '70's/early '80's. We would make the drive from Houston to Vinton - takes about 2.5 hrs (there was no Sam Houston RP in those days). First time, I went with a couple of buddies and I think among the three of us, only one of us (not me) could read a racing form. On the way, we stopped at a convenience store and I picked up a tout sheet for like $1. Just a one-page flyer. The tout sheet recommended the 2 and 10 for the Daily Double so when I got to the track, that's who I selected. It hit. And I had 3 tickets for about a $140 win. So, I played the rest of the night with house money and left the track feeling "hey, this shiite's easy". Eheh. Of course, that trip was followed by many more and just about all were losers. I remember some very long, drunken drives back home..... I did try something before I walked away/moved on: One night I went by myself and stayed sober the whole time. I hit some exacta boxes and was up over $100. I wanted to leave with over $100, so I left by the 7th race - with more money than I started with...

The above is just an aside - I figured someone would like a good "horse story"....

Every customer likes a good horse story.

Thanks for sharing.

[str]

with the passing of Allen Jerkens, may he rest in peace, was wondering if you ever had the chance to meet him over your career?? I remember back in the early 90's I used to by a small paperback book called the "pocket trainer guide" sold by a guy named Ed Olmstead who I believe was a Maryland guy..Listed about 3000 trainers and what their most profitable moves were..1st claim,2nd claim, layoff,2nd layoff, sprint/route, etc..At the time ,before the internet,found it a neat little thing to have ..One thing I'll always remember was what they said about Allen Jerkens .. most trainers had abbreviated moves like ones I mentioned before..with Jerkens he said watch for one or more slow 6f+ works approaching the race date..caught him many times when he did this..he was talked about with the highest praise by his fellow trainers and jocks in the form today.. Not only a great trainer but a kind and generous human being always willing to share his knowledge with others

I only met him once and it was only for about 10 minutes. I could have listened to him all night.

Tony D. who is a dear friend, worked for him for a while as did other acquaintances of mine. They all say the same thing, that he was just incredible to be around day in and day out. For those old enough to appreciate, too me and many of us, he was like Mickey Mantle . He is kind of like the last of that generation of true greats. I was surprised at how deeply it hit me when I heard about it. Only met him for 10 minutes but felt like I lost one of my heroes. But when I think of those 15 or so names of horses and people that led me to the game in the early to mid 70's, he was certainly one of them, so I guess I did.

I think I remember that guide you spoke about. Pretty sure I was in it. Wonder what it said about me? Lol.

Thanks as always JBEX

[JBEX]

Very interesting perspective especially the Mickey Mantle analogy..believe Mantle was only two years younger than
The Chief..He beat my avatar with two different horses which
is a pretty decent accomplishment to say the least

So you think you were in that book..cool..I bought a couple of editions as he would update it every few years..My buddies wanted to look at it all the time..Excellent tool to supplement your handicapping at the time.That was right around when "The Racing Times"launched and forced "The Racing Form" to up their game to compete..Really improved the product then and for many years to follow ...Beyer figs added was a big upgrade for me..couldn't cap without them now

[JBEX]

was watching a Ruffian documentary and they mentioned she out weighed Foolish Pleasure by 60 lbs...in your opinion does this negate the colt vs filly edge cause she was physically bigger than him...on average how much more does a colt weigh than a filly ?

[str]

was watching a Ruffian documentary and they mentioned she out weighed Foolish Pleasure by 60 lbs...in your opinion does this negate the colt vs filly edge cause she was physically bigger than him...on average how much more does a colt weigh than a filly ?

No. Ruffian was bigger but size has very little to do with it. She was IMO the greatest female race horse I have ever seen.
Shared Belief is a gelding. That is a big reason he is not bigger than he is. But his size is not costing him anything. He faces bigger horses every time . Plenty of sleek, narrow looking European fillies come to the breeders cup and beat the boys also. Honestly, I don't think size has much of anything to do with it.

An average might be 70-80 lbs. heavier for a male not gelded than a female but they all come in different shapes and sizes, so it is hard. But that's a fair average I suppose.

[cutchemist42]

Hey str,

With news that SB is heading to the CT Classic, is there any way for a trainer/connections to know how a horse might take to its unique shape? Is it a good spot for SB as well to be ready for the Met Mile?

[cutchemist42]

Sorry if this has been asked before but I'm just getting back into this sport. Is there a free database somewhere online where I can get data on the horses?

I just started playing in the SBR Racebook and am doing quite well but I don't expect that to last too long without some data on horses. With just the odds and the jockey's name, it's dart throwing at its finest...

So, I've come across DRF.com, Equibase and Brisnet but they all want money. Is there someplace where I can get free horse info - even if it's condensed (ala daily program) - online?

TIA

http://www.trks2day.com/trks2day.html

[Arky]

http://www.trks2day.com/trks2day.html

Thanks! There's some good links there especially the live TV links. I've been playing Oaklawn and didn't have a live TV link and didn't find one at their website. Sucks to wait for DRF to post results. I've been also playing a little at Turf Paradise cause I found a TV feed for them - much better when you can see what's going on...

Unless I didn't click on the right thing, I guess I'm still looking for something like a free daily card... something that will show the horses in a race with a quick overview of their (recent) past performances complete with times, etc. - a race sheet....

[JBEX]

No. Ruffian was bigger but size has very little to do with it. She was IMO the greatest female race horse I have ever seen.
Shared Belief is a gelding. That is a big reason he is not bigger than he is. But his size is not costing him anything. He faces bigger horses every time . Plenty of sleek, narrow looking European fillies come to the breeders cup and beat the boys also. Honestly, I don't think size has much of anything to do with it.

An average might be 70-80 lbs. heavier for a male not gelded than a female but they all come in different shapes and sizes, so it is hard. But that's a fair average I suppose.

I guess another way to put it would be this..The average colt or gelding running at the same level (let's say 10k claiming) is maybe 2-3 ticks faster than a filly or mare...isn't that generally due to size ?

I'm sure what happened with Ruffian in that race brought an end to match races in general..You think most of the trainers at that time thought that was a bad idea going into the race especially with a horse of Ruffians quality? You think if she broke outside of Foolish Pleasure the strategy might have been different and she may have pressed the pace rather than try to outrun him early? That would have been less taxing on her I'm sure

[cutchemist42]

Thanks! There's some good links there especially the live TV links. I've been playing Oaklawn and didn't have a live TV link and didn't find one at their website. Sucks to wait for DRF to post results. I've been also playing a little at Turf Paradise cause I found a TV feed for them - much better when you can see what's going on...

Unless I didn't click on the right thing, I guess I'm still looking for something like a free daily card... something that will show the horses in a race with a quick overview of their (recent) past performances complete with times, etc. - a race sheet....

Yeah Oaklawn is tricky with live vid and replays unless your ADW has it. ESPN.com shows Oaklawn, but you're limited to like 30 mins. Enough to watch their stakes races, but not much elese.

Also, clicking on the numbers beside the track names will bring up the PP of each race, where those things are shown.

[Arky]

Yeah Oaklawn is tricky with live vid and replays unless your ADW has it. ESPN.com shows Oaklawn, but you're limited to like 30 mins. Enough to watch their stakes races, but not much elese.

Also, clicking on the numbers beside the track names will bring up the PP of each race, where those things are shown.

Ya, I found I can click on the Oaklawn live feed right at race time, watch the race and then close window. Eheh. Watched about 5 races live today that way and never ran into the 30 min. limit.

I found this place for replays. They're pretty good about posting the vids 15-20 minutes or so after the race...

[cutchemist42]

Ya, I found I can click on the Oaklawn live feed right at race time, watch the race and then close window. Eheh. Watched about 5 races live today that way and never ran into the 30 min. limit.

I found this place for replays. They're pretty good about posting the vids 15-20 minutes or so after the race...

Another good site is calracing.com; not every track is on it, but if you search by horse name, you can get some good replays. I love my headons, and they have that option.

[Arky]

Another good site is calracing.com; not every track is on it, but if you search by horse name, you can get some good replays. I love my headons, and they have that option.

Thanks, I will check into it. Say, I was wondering if it is OK to post race day/forms here? I've seen other people do it, but I wanted to make sure there's not a problem with it... If not a problem, whats a good thread to post these in? I can do Oaklawn. I've got about 7 credits for DRF Easy Form....

[str]

Hey str,

With news that SB is heading to the CT Classic, is there any way for a trainer/connections to know how a horse might take to its unique shape? Is it a good spot for SB as well to be ready for the Met Mile?

SB is a smallish horse. That bodes well for being very agile and able to negotiate tighter turns and move around with minimal disruption of forward momentum so going into the race, you would think that you have something going for you there. As for the met mile, the timing seems ok so why not.
Cal. horses almost always have foot issues. Some severe, some not severe. But most do have some issues. C.T.'s surface is usually not brick hard so a Cal. horse should be ok there.
Hope that helps.

[str]

I guess another way to put it would be this..The average colt or gelding running at the same level (let's say 10k claiming) is maybe 2-3 ticks faster than a filly or mare...isn't that generally due to size ?

I'm sure what happened with Ruffian in that race brought an end to match races in general..You think most of the trainers at that time thought that was a bad idea going into the race especially with a horse of Ruffians quality? You think if she broke outside of Foolish Pleasure the strategy might have been different and she may have pressed the pace rather than try to outrun him early? That would have been less taxing on her I'm sure

I don't think so. I mean, in some cases it sure could, but overall, probably not. Muscle mass and overall strength would be where I would start.
It indeed did bring an end to the match race craze that was building momentum. I was an asst. trainer at the time but I think that it was generally excepted that it would be a helluva race. Plenty of support for both horses as I recall.
In a match race, the lead is ALWAYS where you want to be. That said, she broke awkwardly and being outside might have allowed her to get back under herself without pushing. Personally, I felt that she hurt herself at the break or the 1st 2-3 strides and it came apart a bit later.
It would have been less taxing for sure.